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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 7/22/2004 2:27 AM (GMT -6) |   | See how we're moving the calvinists into becoming universalists? 
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 7/22/2004 2:34 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Lee Merrill
How is this choosing nations, in the first covenant though? If some opt out, and some opt in?
Abraham's descendants are a group of people. Aachan disobeyed and was removed, Rehab believed and was grafted in. "Grafting in", where have I heard of that before? 
quote:
And how is the second covenant the choice of a nation, or a group at all? Except in the sense of choosing all who will believe. But that's individual election!
Those who believe and are placed into Christ, join the group. That's why Paul says our election is "in Him".
Lee, if Jacob and Esau were individually elected, which one are you? Esau or Jacob?
I think they're both dead and, obviously, your name isn't mentioned. Neither are you an Israelite from before the destruction of the temple, so, possibly, Paul isn't talking about you in Romans 9, he's talking about his fellow Israelites, pre-destruction of the temple by the Romans.
If you want to claim you were individually elected, please reference the verse where you are mentioned, by name. Otherwise I'll have to go with these four people, ONLY, being elected as representatives of groups:
Abraham
Jacob
Esau
Jesus
Abraham
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Isaac
/\
/ \
Jacob Esau
. .
. .
.
Jesus
I just don't see your name on the list Lee, sorry. Don't feel bad, most of us, our elections are "in Him".
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 7/22/2004 2:46 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Lee Merrill
JN 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him...
John 12:32
"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."
Aye, we agree. He is drawing all to Him.
Matthew 23:37
"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling."
But many are unwilling.
2 Peter 3:9
"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."
God is not willing they perish, but hey, it's their choice.
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 7/22/2004 7:44 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
quote:
But many are unwilling.
2 Peter 3:9
"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."
God is not willing they perish, but hey, it's their choice.
Sisters-are you claiming that man's will is more sovereign than God's? Since God wills all men to be saved, He is not able to complete His own will since man can choose to not accept His salvation?
God is not a rapist, He doesn't force Himself on people.
He tells people "choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living"
Joshua 24
He invites, not coerces:
"Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me."
Revelation 3
The very fact that there's rebellion in His kingdom proves the free-will He has allowed His subjects.
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 7/22/2004 7:47 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
Sisters- We will not find our names in the Bible unless your parents gave you a biblical name (for example my 2 sons are Andrew and Alexander). You are correct when you say our election is in Christ. But Paul did write in Ephesians 1:4,5 "According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world"
In Him you were chosen. If you're in Him, you're one of the chosen.
"whosoever" can become one of the chosen by being "in Him".
Those born "into" Abraham became one of the elected group. Elected in Abraham. Rahab believed and was obedient and was placed into that group. Aachan disobeyed and was removed from that group. This models the whole behaviour of a group being elected and individuals joining or quitting the group by their faith and obedience or lack thereof.
American Airline elects to send an airplane to Narita. The plane is empty, at first.
They foreordain that "Caddy Shack" will be shown and "Mystery Meat" will be served on that flight.
All who buy a ticket on that flight become part of the elected flight.
All who buy a ticket on that flight are stuck with "Caddy Shack" and "Mystery Meat".
Aachan cancels his reservation. He's not a Bill Murray fan.
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 7/22/2004 3:40 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi everyone,
quote:
Lee: How is this choosing nations, in the first covenant though? If some opt out, and some opt in?
Sisters: Abraham's descendants are a group of people. Aachan disobeyed and was removed, Rehab believed and was grafted in. "Grafting in", where have I heard of that before?
Yes, but Rahab wasn't part of the nation when she was chosen, and if the group was chosen, then Achan was chosen, too. So it's individuals who are chosen, and cut off, or grafted in, and not trees, not yes or no for the whole tree.
quote:
Lee: And how is the second covenant the choice of a nation, or a group at all? Except in the sense of choosing all who will believe. But that's individual election!
Sisters: Those who believe and are placed into Christ, join the group. That's why Paul says our election is "in Him".
But you said this was about choosing groups (plural). But this is only one group, what is the other group, is this "everyone else"? And you only find out about these "groups" after the fact, thus this isn't choosing groups at all, in the second covenant, in any sense.
quote:
Sisters: ... if Jacob and Esau were individually elected, which one are you? Esau or Jacob?
They are examples, the names are in the Book of Life, though. And not the names of groups!
quote:
2 Peter 3:9
"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."
God is not willing they perish, but hey, it's their choice.
But this is only true if God's will can be thwarted. But it can't!
EPH 1:11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will.
quote:
Sisters: He tells people "choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living"
Joshua 24
But then Joshua goes on to say:
Joshua 24:19 "You are not able to serve the Lord."
And they weren't! Though they thought they had chosen, and made a covenant, they still went after other gods, because their choice was not the result of God's choice, instead it was just their choosing:
Judges 21:25 ... everyone did as he saw fit.
quote:
Sisters: Those born "into" Abraham became one of the elected group. Elected in Abraham. Rahab believed and was obedient and was placed into that group. Aachan disobeyed and was removed from that group.
So the group wasn't chosen! Otherwise no one could join the group, joining a group, because I chose to, means I chose, and not someone else.
Blessings,
Lee
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 7/22/2004 6:12 PM (GMT -6) | | God is not a rapist, He doesn't force Himself on people.
He tells people "choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living"
Joshua 24
He invites, not coerces:
______________________________________________________________________
The kindness of God leads you to repentance (Romans 2:4)
The grace of God overwhelms (1 Timothy 1:14)
God has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works (which would include our choices) but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began. (2 Timothy 1:9)
This does not sound like a rapist, nor does it sound like coercing, God softens our heart so that we are able to realize His gift of salvation through Jesus Christ. The realization of God's love overwhelms. God will reconcile all to Himself through Jesus Christ (Col. 1:18). He has declared it and His word will not come back empty!
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 7/22/2004 11:02 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by God_Is_Truth
quote:
Originally posted by lock
There is no problem with Satan being the prince of this age. According to Luke 4:6 satan told Jesus that the authority over the kingdoms of the world was given to him. Who gave him this authority? Of course, God! Satan
no, the authority was first given to us (remember that whole dominion thing?), and we forfeited it to him when we fell. granted, it is God who allows him to still have the authority, but he didn't really hand it over to him on a silver platter either.
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According to Gen. 1:26, man has dominion over the animals. It says nothing of any kingdoms of the world. Gen 3:16 says man will rule over the women (and this is due to the fall into sin) and verse 17-19 speaks of the curse on the ground, but still no word of forfeiting the kingdoms or the world to satan. Gen. 9:2 speaks of the animals fearing man, but still nothing of kingdoms. Kingdoms do not even come into the picture until after the tower of babel. Where in the scriptures does it say we forfeited the authority over the kingdoms of the world to satan? Luke 4:6 clearly states this authority was given to satan.
The fall into sin and redemption of man is a part of God's creation process. In Gen. 1:26 God said let us make mankind after our image, after our likeness. God did not create Adam as the finished product. The distinction is made in 1 Cor. 15:45-49 between Adam and Christ. Adam was a living soul, Christ is a quickening spirit. Adam is natural, Christ is spiritual. Adam was from the earth, earthy, Christ is heavenly, We were born to bare the image of the earthly, we shall also bare the image of the heavenly. Christ is the finished product, the first perfect man (Heb. 2:5-10). As in Adam all die, in Christ shall all be made alive (1 Cor. 15:22). In Gen. 3:22 when God said, "Behold the man is become as one of Us, to know good and evil", it did not catch Him off guard. It was all a part of the process. In order for us to know God's grace and mercy, we have to have something to compare; that is where evil comes in. God uses evil to demonstrate His kindness. For instance Romans 5:20 (b), "But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:"
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 7/24/2004 10:05 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
In Him you were chosen. If you're in Him, you're one of the chosen.
"whosoever" can become one of the chosen by being "in Him".[/size=1]
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lock:
quote:
In you statement you changed the order of the words to fit your ideology. It states God has chosen us in Christ.
"in Him" is a prepositional adverb phrase that modifies the verb of the sentence, it doesn't matter where it's placed in the sentence.
Lock flew to China on the plane.
On the plane, Lock flew to China.
"on the plane" modifies the verb, "flew". It explains how you flew to China.
God chose us in Him.
In Him, God chose us.
"in Him" modifies the verb, "chose". It explains how God chose us.
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edcaina
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 12
| Posted 7/25/2004 1:19 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sisters of Cain
Yeah!
The election is GROUPS, not individuals.
Right. And not only that, the election was not unto salvation. In Genesis, God did not choose Jacob to be saved. Rather, TO BE SERVED by the older Esau. Paul would be out of context if in Romans 9:11-13 he meant choosing unto salvation when Genesis 25:23 never meant that. | | Back to Top | | |
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 7/25/2004 10:23 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi everyone,
quote:
SOC: The election is GROUPS, not individuals.
Ed: Right. And not only that, the election was not unto salvation. In Genesis, God did not choose Jacob to be saved. Rather, TO BE SERVED by the older Esau. Paul would be out of context if in Romans 9:11-13 he meant choosing unto salvation when Genesis 25:23 never meant that.
But Paul says God chose people out of these groups, Jews and Gentiles. So this is individual election. And Paul is indeed talking about salvation here in Rom. 9:
Rom. 9:3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my kinsmen according to the flesh.
Romans 9:15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
There's more going on here than just choosing a nation! It's about mercy and compassion, this is not just saying "I choose a special people."
Romans 9:23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory...
Paul applies his previous points to "us"! Prepared in advance for membership? No, for glory...
Romans 9:26 "It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,' they will be called 'sons of the living God.'"
There is a group here, though! It's the group of people who are sons of God, who are saved.
Romans 9:27 ... only the remnant will be saved.
There it is in plain words, this passage is about salvation.
Romans 9:30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith...
Not "they obtained group membership."
Romans 9:33 "... the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."
That's faith! Saving faith...
Blessings,
Lee
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 7/26/2004 5:55 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by rossfadeinout
Lock,
Good to see you here. I hope that your time on the board will be productive, and that we can learn from one another. I do have an observation for you.... You have said that
quote:
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In order for us to know God's grace and mercy, we have to have something to compare; that is where evil comes in. God uses evil to demonstrate His kindness. For instance Romans 5:20 (b), "But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:"
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Isn't this statement limiting God's power? You say that we HAVE to have evil in order to understand good. But are you saying that God COULD NOT create beings that understand love without evil?
What about God before creation? Is evil co-eternal with God in order for God to know what love is?
Now if God "chose" to create a system like you say where the only way for humans to understand God's love would be for him to introduce evil, that would be understandable. (I would then merely have to disagree with your understanding of reality, but it would be at least consistent) But that would mean that God can choose what kind of creation that he wants. And I would agree with you on that point. I would say that he has created a world where humans can enter into loving relationships with God. And that love requires choice...
Looking forward to your response,
Ross
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Hello Ross,
I am saying that we learn by comparison. My point also is that evil didn't just bust its way into creation. Eccl. 1:13 says that God uses evil ("sore travail" in the KJV) to humble man. Is. 45:7, "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." Paul also makes the comparison in Romans 8:18, "I reckon the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us." God used the most evil sin in the history of the world (Jesus' death on the cross) to reconcile the world to Himself (2 Cor. 5:19). All in from God (Romans 11:36, 1 Cor. 8:6, 2 Cor. 5:18, Eph. 1:11). Job said to his wife, "What? Shall we receive the good at the hand of God and shall we not receive the evil?" (Job 2:10). I do not believe in chance. All that happens has a purpose from God. Evil is not eternal, it has a purpose in God's plan for His creation, and when this purpose in accomplish, then evil will be no more. I hope this has clarified my position.
When it comes to love; I have to admit that my human, fleshy love does not get the job done. Romans 5:5 says the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts. Our fleshy love was nailed to the cross and buried with Jesus and now we can love with the love of God in the resurrection power of God. I reckon my fleshy love dead and now I love through the love of God. The grace of God overwhelms me. I cannot help but to love God because He has softened my heart and He reckons me dead and buried and resurrected in Christ. He has formed me into a vessel of mercy.
Please -everyone- do not get me wrong. I know man has a free will to make choices everyday. But thank God He has influenced my choice by softening my heart and giving me a realization of His grace and mercy. There is no way I would have seeked out and chose God on my own. The natural man does not receive the things of the spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; neither can he know them, because they are spritually discerned (1 Cor. 2:14).
Lock
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 7/26/2004 6:23 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sisters of Cain
quote:
In Him you were chosen. If you're in Him, you're one of the chosen.
"whosoever" can become one of the chosen by being "in Him".
--------------------------------------------------------------
lock:
quote:
In you statement you changed the order of the words to fit your ideology. It states God has chosen us in Christ.
"in Him" is a prepositional adverb phrase that modifies the verb of the sentence, it doesn't matter where it's placed in the sentence.
Lock flew to China on the plane.
On the plane, Lock flew to China.
"on the plane" modifies the verb, "flew". It explains how you flew to China.
God chose us in Him.
In Him, God chose us.
"in Him" modifies the verb, "chose". It explains how God chose us.
[/size=1]
The "in Him" is our position (in Christ). God chose us in Christ or in Christ God chose us; either way God is still choosing us. Positionally we are in Christ because we died, were buried, and were raised up again in Christ (Romans 6). Again, the question you should be asking is: which position gives God all the glory? If man is responsible for the most important part of salvation (the choice to accept it or not) does this not glorify man and his free will over God's? Yes, it does! By saying that God has His hand over all (even by influencing our choices) He recieves all the glory for His salvation. God does not force Himself on us (as most christians do by threatening with hell fire) but instead He overwhelms us with His love, grace, and mercy. If you chose God, then your salvation is of yourself and Eph 2:8 clearly states that salvation is not of ourselves but is the gift of God.
-Sisters- I understand that your position is that we choose to be "in Christ" and thus become one of the chosen. 1 Cor. 15:22 says that just as all have died in Adam, all will be made alive in Christ. The all speaks of all mankind. If the all who die in Adam is mankind, then the all who will be made alive in Christ is also all mankind. Those who are chosen "in Christ" now during this age will be made alive with Him when he returns in glory (1 Cor. 15:23). The rest of mankind will eventually be made alive in Christ at the consummation of the eons (1 Cor. 15:24). All mankind is in Christ, those who are chosen during this present evil age will be glorified with Christ during the coming two eons (the millennial reign of Christ, and then the new heavens and new earth). Then, at the end of the eons the rest of mankind will be made alive in Christ, death will be abolished, and God will be All in All (1 Cor. 15:24-28).
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 7/27/2004 1:43 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
quote:
Originally posted by Sisters of Cain
quote:
In Him you were chosen. If you're in Him, you're one of the chosen.
"whosoever" can become one of the chosen by being "in Him".
--------------------------------------------------------------
lock:
quote:
In you statement you changed the order of the words to fit your ideology. It states God has chosen us in Christ.
"in Him" is a prepositional adverb phrase that modifies the verb of the sentence, it doesn't matter where it's placed in the sentence.
Lock flew to China on the plane.
On the plane, Lock flew to China.
"on the plane" modifies the verb, "flew". It explains how you flew to China.
God chose us in Him.
In Him, God chose us.
"in Him" modifies the verb, "chose". It explains how God chose us.
[/size=1]
The "in Him" is our position (in Christ). God chose us in Christ or in Christ God chose us; either way God is still choosing us. in Christ
"in Christ" modifies the verb, chose. It explains how God chose us, because I don't see any verse that says God chose "lock".
There's plenty of scripture that shows how we can get "in Christ".
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."
Romans 10:9 "that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."
Joel 2:32 "And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the LORD will be delivered;"
That's who the elect are, whoever receive Jesus and are "in Him" because God "chose us in Him".
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 7/27/2004 4:19 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
"in Christ" modifies the verb, chose. It explains how God chose us, because I don't see any verse that says God chose "lock".
God chose "us," though, individuals. You have this verse saying "God chose in him." "In him" being the object. And this leaves out "us," which is the actual object of the verb.
quote:
There's plenty of scripture that shows how we can get "in Christ".
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."
There's some other verses too, our choice is not the end of the chain:
1KI 8:58 May he turn our hearts to him...
1KI 18:37 Answer me, O Lord, answer me, so these people will know that you, O Lord, are God, and that you are turning their hearts back again.
Isaiah 63:17 Why, O Lord, do you make us wander from your ways and harden our hearts so we do not revere you?
James 1:18 Of his own will he brought us forth by the word of truth...
Blessings,
Lee
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 7/28/2004 2:03 AM (GMT -6) | | Lee:
quote:
God chose "us," though, individuals.
"us" is a plural pronoun, it denotes a group
or are you schizophrenic?
quote:
You have this verse saying "God chose in him."
No, it says "He chose us in Him". Ephesians 1:4
God is the subject, we're the direct object and "in Him" is the prepositional phrase that explains how He chose us. I don't see a "God chose Lee Merrill" verse so we have to look for verses that show:
1. God chooses a group (all who are "in Him")
2. the conditions for Lee Merrill joining that group (all the verses I posted earlier about "if you believe, you will be saved")
Then Lee Merrill can know he's part of the elect because
1. he met the conditions laid out for joining that group
2. once he's in the group of those "in Him", he's part of the elect
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 7/28/2004 5:16 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi SOC,
quote:
Lee: God chose "us," though, individuals.
SOC: "us" is a plural pronoun, it denotes a group
"Us" can refer to a group of individuals, all of whom have the statement apply to each one of them. "We boarded the bus, and it took 'us' to Kansas City."
quote:
Lee: You have this verse saying "God chose in him."
SOC: God is the subject, we're the direct object and "in Him" is the prepositional phrase that explains how He chose us.
Yes, God chose the direct object, "us."
quote:
I don't see a "God chose Lee Merrill" verse so we have to look for verses that show:
1. God chooses a group (all who are "in Him")
2. the conditions for Lee Merrill joining that group (all the verses I posted earlier about "if you believe, you will be saved")
Then Lee Merrill can know he's part of the elect because
1. he met the conditions laid out for joining that group
2. once he's in the group of those "in Him", he's part of the elect
1 Thessalonians 1:4-5 For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, because our gospel came to you not simply with words, but also with power, with the Holy Spirit and with deep conviction.
Now people do not bring power to themselves, nor do they bring the Holy Spirit to themselves, nor do they convict themselves of sin! Thus the evidence by which Paul knows they were chosen is all dependent on God, and not on anything in them, Paul doesn't say "because you believed, you must have been chosen."
Blessings,
Lee
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 7/29/2004 2:00 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
"Us" can refer to a group of individuals, all of whom have the statement apply to each one of them. "We boarded the bus, and it took 'us' to Kansas City."
Great example, Lee.
A bus company schedules an empty bus to go to Kansas City.
They have conditions that "whosoever" purchases a ticket and shows up in time, will be placed on the bus. All those "on the bus" will go to Kansas City.
The bus company has selected that all those "on the bus" will go to Kansas City.
If you don't meet the conditions, you don't buy a ticket or don't show up in time, you are not one of those "on the bus" and thus don't go to Kansas City.
Just like the bus, if we meet the conditions for being "in Christ", we are placed "in Christ" by God.
John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
Romans 10:
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
We meet these conditions, God places us "in Christ" and we are now part of the elect. Our election is "in Christ".
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 7/29/2004 4:22 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi SOC,
quote:
Lee: "Us" can refer to a group of individuals, all of whom have the statement apply to each one of them. "We boarded the bus, and it took 'us' to Kansas City."
SOC: A bus company schedules an empty bus to go to Kansas City. ... The bus company has selected that all those "on the bus" will go to Kansas City.
But the company doesn't choose a group, in any sense. They choose conditions, but the people on the bus don't say "they chose us." No, they don't.
quote:
We meet these conditions, God places us "in Christ" and we are now part of the elect. Our election is "in Christ".
1 Thessalonians 1:4-5 For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, because our gospel came to you not simply with words, but also with power, with the Holy Spirit and with deep conviction.
Now people do not bring power to themselves, nor do they bring the Holy Spirit to themselves, nor do they convict themselves of sin! Thus the evidence by which Paul knows they were chosen is all dependent on God, and not on anything in them, Paul doesn't review the conditions, and say "yes, you met them, this is how you were chosen."
Blessings,
Lee
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 7/30/2004 5:25 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
The natural man does not receive the things of the spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; neither can he know them, because they are spritually discerned (1 Cor. 2:14).
Sisters-according to the verse above it is impossible for a person to recieve or understand the things of God. Only when given the spirit of God are we able to recieve the things of God and His salvation. Until God gives us a realization of the His salvation it is impossible for us to "choose" Him.
Romans 1:
19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Paul explains why they are without excuse, it's because they DID have the ability to understand and clearly see things of God, but they rejected Him anyway.
We believe that God draws people to Himself:
John 12:32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."
and yet they have to respond:
Romans 10:
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
Note Paul just lays out the conditions, believe and confess and ANYONE can do these.
Revelation 3:20 'Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.
Once you've heard the word of God, believed and confessed and are placed "in Christ", then you can understand the spiritual things of God.
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