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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 7/30/2004 2:59 PM (GMT -6) |   | Hi everyone,
quote:
Lock: Only when given the spirit of God are we able to recieve the things of God and His salvation.
Romans 1:
19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
SOC: Paul explains why they are without excuse, it's because they DID have the ability to understand and clearly see things of God, but they rejected Him anyway.
Ability to sin does not imply ability to not sin. Otherwise righteousness could have come through the law (Gal. 2:21).
quote:
We believe that God draws people to Himself:
John 12:32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."
and yet they have to respond...
Yes, and yet they can't respond, without God's enabling:
JN 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him...
JN 6:65 ... no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him.
quote:
Romans 10:
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
Note Paul just lays out the conditions, believe and confess and ANYONE can do these.
No, they can't, though:
JN 8:43 ... you are unable to hear what I say.
JN 10:26 ... you do not believe because you are not my sheep.
There's a reason they don't believe! Their choice is not the end of the chain, there are causes for this.
Blessings,
Lee
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 8/2/2004 5:22 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sisters of Cain
quote:
Originally posted by lock
The natural man does not receive the things of the spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; neither can he know them, because they are spritually discerned (1 Cor. 2:14).
Sisters-according to the verse above it is impossible for a person to recieve or understand the things of God. Only when given the spirit of God are we able to recieve the things of God and His salvation. Until God gives us a realization of the His salvation it is impossible for us to "choose" Him.
Romans 1:
19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Paul explains why they are without excuse, it's because they DID have the ability to understand and clearly see things of God, but they rejected Him anyway.
Sisters- do you feel that Romans 1 and 1 Cor. 2 contradict each other?
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 8/6/2004 3:10 AM (GMT -6) | | Lee:
quote:
Ability to sin does not imply ability to not sin. Otherwise righteousness could have come through the law (Gal. 2:21).
Galatians 2:
21 "I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."
This verse states NOTHING about the ability to sin or not.
Did Jesus keep the law?
Does ability to swim not imply ability to not swim?
Does ability to talk not imply ability to not talk?
Does ability to stand not imply ability to not stand?
LOL
1 John 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
IF anyone sins. Not "when" anyone sins.
If
Definition: \If\, conj. [OE. if, gif, AS. gif; akin to OFries. ief, gef,
ef, OS. ef, of, D. of, or, whether, if, G. ob whether, if,
OHG. oba, ibu, Icel. ef, Goth. iba, ibai, an interrogative
particle; properly a case form of a noun meaning, doubt (cf.
OHG. iba doubt, condition, Icel. if, ef, ifi, efi), and
therefore orig. meaning, on condition that.]
1. In case that; granting, allowing, or supposing that; --
introducing a condition or supposition.
2. Whether; -- in dependent questions.
{As if}, {But if}. See under {As}, {But}.
"Supposing that" anyone sins
"In case that" anyone sins
"if it's the condition that" anyone sins
God doesn't make people sinners and then punish them because they're sinners. | | Back to Top | | |
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 8/6/2004 3:23 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
Sisters- do you feel that Romans 1 and 1 Cor. 2 contradict each other?
No.
Romans 1 is about general revelation in nature. Based on what they see in nature, they should start to seek God and God will then meet them.
Jeremiah 29:13 You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart.
Genesis 5:
21 Enoch lived sixty-five years, and became the father of Methuselah.
22 Then Enoch walked with God three hundred years after he became the father of Methuselah, and he had other sons and daughters.
23 So all the days of Enoch were three hundred and sixty-five years.
24 Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him.
Hebrews 11:5
By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; AND HE WAS NOT FOUND BECAUSE GOD TOOK HIM UP; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God.
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 8/6/2004 5:03 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi SOC,
quote:
Lee: Ability to sin does not imply ability to not sin. Otherwise righteousness could have come through the law (Gal. 2:21).
Galatians 2:
21 "I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."
SOC: This verse states NOTHING about the ability to sin or not.
Doesn't righteousness coming through the law imply any person can choose not to sin?
quote:
Did Jesus keep the law?
Yes, certainly he did. He was different, though, "apart from sinners" (Heb. 7:26).
quote:
Does ability to swim not imply ability to not swim?
Well, sin is the failure, the analogous statement here would be "inability to swim does not imply ability to swim." And it doesn't…
quote:
1 John 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
SOC: IF anyone sins. Not "when" anyone sins.
This is talking about believers though, who are set free from sin, though they're not perfect:
John 8:36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.
What does it mean for Jesus to set people free, if they weren't slaves?
quote:
God doesn't make people sinners and then punish them because they're sinners.
He punishes them because they sin, though, not because they're sinners.
Blessings,
Lee
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 8/6/2004 5:37 AM (GMT -6) | | Lee:Doesn't righteousness coming through the law imply any person can choose not to sin?
Paul was talking about the Mosaic law in Galatians.
1. Lots of people lived before the Mosaic law was given.
Abraham, for example:
Galatians 3:6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. (quoting Genesis 15:6)
2. Lots of people have never heard of the Mosaic law. For example, how many Chinese in the Xia (2000-1500 BC), Shang (1700-1027 BC), Zhou (1027-221 BC), Qin (221-207 BC), Han (206BC - 220AD) Dynasties heard of the Mosaic law?
But God also puts a moral law within us, I believe. That's one of the reasons most (if not all) cultures have had a ban on incest, for example. This is the law Paul is talking about in Romans 1.
For anyone to break a moral law (don't kill, don't scope for chicks at family reunions, etc), they have to have the ability to keep the moral law.
SOC:Did Jesus keep the law?
Lee:Yes, certainly he did. He was different, though, "apart from sinners" (Heb. 7:26).
He wasn't born into that role, though. He achieved it:
Hebrews 5:
7 In the days of His flesh, He offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His piety.
8 Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered.
9 And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation,
10 being designated by God as a high priest according to the order of Melchizedek.
Hebrews 4:15 For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin.
He was tempted in all things as we are, yet didn't sin. He fulfilled the law in our capacity. Otherwise He can't be our High Priest.
SOC:Does ability to swim not imply ability to not swim?
Lee:Well, sin is the failure, the analogous statement here would be "inability to swim does not imply ability to swim." And it doesn't…
Sin is an action. So if you can commit an action, you can also NOT commit that action.
If I have the ability to kill someone, I also have the ability to refrain from killing someone.
If I have the ability to tell a lie, I also have the ability to not tell the lie.
If I have the ability to steal, I also have the ability to not steal.
Surely, Lee, before you were a believer, there were LOTS of people you refrained from killing, deshou neh?
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 8/6/2004 6:35 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
.
SOC:Did Jesus keep the law?
Lee:Yes, certainly he did. He was different, though, "apart from sinners" (Heb. 7:26).
He wasn't born into that role, though. He achieved it:
2 Timothy 1:9(b) God saves us "according to His own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before eonian times" (or before time began as we know it).
Philippians 2:6-8 states that Jesus was in the form of God and it would not be a form of robbery to be equal to God, and yet He made Himself of no reputation, and took upon Him the form of a servant and was made in the likeness of man. This would seem that He was born into the role!
SOC-Sin is an action. So if you can commit an action, you can also NOT commit that action.
Exactly which "sin" are you referring to? In Romans 5:12-14 we are told that "sin" (hamartia) entered the world through one man and through sin death and thus death passed on into all mankind and even though they did not sin in the likeness of the transgression (paraptoma) of Adam, nevertheless death reigned. Adam committed a sin, or offense (paraptoma)and thus sin (hamartia) passed on to the rest of mankind. The Law entered the picture so that the offense (paraptoma) may abound, so that grace may superabound. My point is that I believe you are speaking of the offense (paraptoma)in your quote above which still doesn't address sin (hamartia) which all mankind inherits with flesh. We may choose to paraptom or not, but we are born with hamartia whether we like it or not!
Lock
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 8/7/2004 10:03 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi everyone,
quote:
Lee:Doesn't righteousness coming through the law imply any person can choose not to sin?
SOC: Paul was talking about the Mosaic law in Galatians.
Yes, and about human effort:
Galatians 3:3 Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?
Thus Paul is addressing more than just observing the laws of Moses, he is addressing all human effort. Thus if people can choose to do good, righteousness could have come that way, and Christ died needlessly.
Paul said "I do not set aside the grace of God" in Gal. 2:21, this is the alternative he gives, how is a person in another culture, keeping the general moral law on their own, not setting aside God's grace?
quote:
For anyone to break a moral law (don't kill, don't scope for chicks at family reunions, etc), they have to have the ability to keep the moral law.
The first two commands are to love God and your neighbor, and "love comes from God" (1 Jn. 4:7), so how is an unbeliever going to fulfill the law, if they don't love? People can do some of the deeds, or refrain from bad ones, but the motive is required, as well as the deed. "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy?"
quote:
SOC:Did Jesus keep the law?
Lee:Yes, certainly he did. He was different, though, "apart from sinners" (Heb. 7:26).
SOC: He wasn't born into that role, though. He achieved it:
Hebrews 5:
8 Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered.
9 And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation…
If Jesus wasn't perfect, in the sense of sinless, then he needs a Savior, too. Are you saying Jesus wasn't sinless? I hope you are not saying that.
quote:
Hebrews 4:15 For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin.
SOC: He was tempted in all things as we are, yet didn't sin. He fulfilled the law in our capacity. Otherwise He can't be our High Priest.
Now you seem to be saying Jesus had to be able to sin, to be like us in that way, to be able to help us. But a person who can't drown (for example, people who float in the water without effort), can still save someone from drowning, and can still learn to swim, and help people struggling in the water, and sympathize with them, too.
quote:
SOC:Does ability to swim not imply ability to not swim?
Lee:Well, sin is the failure, the analogous statement here would be "inability to swim does not imply ability to swim." And it doesn't…
SOC: Sin is an action. So if you can commit an action, you can also NOT commit that action.
Lock: "In Romans 5:12-14 we are told that "sin" (hamartia) entered the world through one man…"
I agree with this approach, I would start here, and note that sin ("hamartia") is "missing the mark." Yes, it's an action, but it's also still a failure, a failure to love. People can refrain from sinful deeds, but they still can't love on their own, as discussed above. Thus failure to love does not imply ability to love, missing the target doesn't mean you can hit it.
Blessings,
Lee
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 8/7/2004 11:27 AM (GMT -6) | | Lee:Now you seem to be saying Jesus had to be able to sin, to be like us in that way, to be able to help us.
That's exactly what Paul is saying. If Jesus couldn't sin, then Jesus couldn't and wasn't tempted like me AND He can't be my High Priest.
God needed SOMEONE to fulfill the whole law as a human being and Jesus was the one that did that.
What other reason would Jesus become a man like us?
God makes people.
People choose to sin.
God gives Law, tells them to keep the Law.
People don't keep the Law.
God sends His Son to become a human and keep the whole Law.
Son, as a human, keeps the whole Law.
Son, the Law-keeper, dies in place of the Law-breakers.
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 8/7/2004 11:54 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
Exactly which "sin" are you referring to? In Romans 5:12-14 we are told that "sin" (hamartia) entered the world through one man and through sin death and thus death passed on into all mankind and even though they did not sin in the likeness of the transgression (paraptoma) of Adam, nevertheless death reigned. Adam committed a sin, or offense (paraptoma)and thus sin (hamartia) passed on to the rest of mankind. The Law entered the picture so that the offense (paraptoma) may abound, so that grace may superabound. My point is that I believe you are speaking of the offense (paraptoma)in your quote above which still doesn't address sin (hamartia) which all mankind inherits with flesh. We may choose to paraptom or not, but we are born with hamartia whether we like it or not!
Whoa, whoa, that's not Romans 5:12-14.
Romans 5:
12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned*
13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
verse 12, through Adam, sin entered the world not people. Sin became available. People choose to commit sinful actions.
verse 12, death spread to all because all sinned. That's how it spreads. Not through genetics. 
verse 13, sin was in the world, it was available as a choice
See, sin is an action, not an object. You know it by it being described by a verb. kill, steal, lie, vote Democrat 
verse 14, the "those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam" lived between Adam and Moses. Adam had the direct command of God not to sin. Moses brought the Law. Everyone between the two didn't have that directness of prohibition. Adam and everyone after the Law had directness of prohibition.
Death spreads "because all sinned" Romans 5:12
Death spreads because "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" Romans 3:23
Ezekial 18:20
"The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him."
Where'd you get the wacky idea of inherited sin?
Wait, I think I found it:
If my dad was a liar, me being born didn't make me a liar.
If my dad was a hunter, me being born didn't make me a hunter.
Actions (denoted by verbs in common grammar) are not inherited.
* The Latin vulgate added "in Adam" after "all sinned" so it said "all sinned in Adam". But no modern translations have that as it was an incorrect addtion.
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borg
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 324
| Posted 8/7/2004 4:27 PM (GMT -6) | | One turns to the other and says, "I cannot stand that passage in Romans 9." "Well come my friend and share why such a passage bothers you" said the other. "Because I cannot reckon nor understand why God would hate Esau. My mind doesn't buy it." "Ah, but perhaps that shouldn't bother you. Rather friend, perhaps we should ask why God LOVED Jacob."
" ...the conversion of a sinner being not owing to a man's self determination, but to God's determination, and eternal election, which is absolute, and depending on the sovereign Will of God, and not on the free will of man; as is evident from what has been said : and it being very evident from the Scriptures, that the eternal election of saints to the faith and holiness, is also an election of them to eternal salvation; hence their appointment to salvation must also be absolute, and not depending on their contingent, self-determining Will."
JONATHAN EDWARDS
“We cannot find God for the same reason that a thief can't find a police officer.”
- Michael Horton
grace,
borg
"So it is a more glorious work of power to uphold a soul in a state of grace and holiness, and to carry it on till it is brought to glory, when there is so much sin remaining in the heart resisting, and Satan with all his might opposing, than it would have been to have kept manfrom falling at first, when Satan had nothing in man." Edwards | | Back to Top | | |
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 8/8/2004 6:07 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sisters of Cain
quote:
Originally posted by lock
Exactly which "sin" are you referring to? In Romans 5:12-14 we are told that "sin" (hamartia) entered the world through one man and through sin death and thus death passed on into all mankind and even though they did not sin in the likeness of the transgression (paraptoma) of Adam, nevertheless death reigned. Adam committed a sin, or offense (paraptoma)and thus sin (hamartia) passed on to the rest of mankind. The Law entered the picture so that the offense (paraptoma) may abound, so that grace may superabound. My point is that I believe you are speaking of the offense (paraptoma)in your quote above which still doesn't address sin (hamartia) which all mankind inherits with flesh. We may choose to paraptom or not, but we are born with hamartia whether we like it or not!
Whoa, whoa, that's not Romans 5:12-14.
Romans 5:
12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned*
13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
verse 12, through Adam, sin entered the world not people. Sin became available. People choose to commit sinful actions.
verse 12, death spread to all because all sinned. That's how it spreads. Not through genetics.
verse 13, sin was in the world, it was available as a choice
See, sin is an action, not an object. You know it by it being described by a verb. kill, steal, lie, vote Democrat
verse 14, the "those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam" lived between Adam and Moses. Adam had the direct command of God not to sin. Moses brought the Law. Everyone between the two didn't have that directness of prohibition. Adam and everyone after the Law had directness of prohibition.
Death spreads "because all sinned" Romans 5:12
Death spreads because "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" Romans 3:23
Ezekial 18:20
"The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him."
Where'd you get the wacky idea of inherited sin?
Wait, I think I found it:
If my dad was a liar, me being born didn't make me a liar.
If my dad was a hunter, me being born didn't make me a hunter.
Actions (denoted by verbs in common grammar) are not inherited.
* The Latin vulgate added "in Adam" after "all sinned" so it said "all sinned in Adam". But no modern translations have that as it was an incorrect addtion.
John Calvin further developed Augustine's theology which was based on Greek philosophy (Manichaeism) and the Latin Vulgate.
SOC-
Romans 5:18,19 "Consequently, then as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just award for all mankind for life's justifying. For even as, through the disobedience of one man, then many were constitued sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."
SIN REIGNS IN DEATH (Romans 5:21). Even though sin was not taken into account, nevertheless death reigns from Adam to Moses (v. 14). The fact that ALL men have the potential to die means that sin was inherited from Adam. If death occurs becasue of the sin we are choosing to do everyday, then what is the limit of sinning that eventually cause us to die?
Lock
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Sisters of Cain
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Total Posts : 431
| Posted 8/8/2004 3:50 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
Romans 5:18,19 "Consequently, then as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just award for all mankind for life's justifying.
So lock, you're a universalist. If by Adam all are automatically made sinners, than by Jesus all are automatically justified.
The alternative is if by one sin enters the world and death spreads to all "because all sinned", Romans 5:12, so by one righteousness enters the world and is available, through Jesus Christ.
Either both are automatic, and you're a universalist (and this is all a moot point because all will be saved, let's sin that grace may abound) OR sin has to be chosen as God's free gift of grace has to be chosen.
Which is it? Are you a universalist? Will all be automatically saved as all have been automatically made sinners (as you believe)?
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 8/8/2004 6:55 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sisters of Cain
quote:
Originally posted by lock
Romans 5:18,19 "Consequently, then as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just award for all mankind for life's justifying.
So lock, you're a universalist. If by Adam all are automatically made sinners, than by Jesus all are automatically justified.
The alternative is if by one sin enters the world and death spreads to all "because all sinned", Romans 5:12, so by one righteousness enters the world and is available, through Jesus Christ.
Either both are automatic, and you're a universalist (and this is all a moot point because all will be saved, let's sin that grace may abound) OR sin has to be chosen as God's free gift of grace has to be chosen.
Which is it? Are you a universalist? Will all be automatically saved as all have been automatically made sinners (as you believe)?
No, I do not claim to be a Universalist because they do not believe in the judgements of God nor the saving power of the cross of Christ. I do believe that there are 2 types of people, those whom God will give faith now during this current age (who will live during the eons of the eons), and those who God will raise up to stand before the white throne, be judged according to their acts, and then be cast into the lake of fire which is the second death. This group will be in the state of death during the new heavens and the new earth eon, until the consummation when ALL will be made alive in Christ (1 Cor. 15:22-28). God locks up all in stubbornness, that He should be merciful to all (Rom. 11:32).
Lock
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Sisters of Cain
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Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 8/9/2004 1:33 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
God locks up all in stubbornness, that He should be merciful to all (Rom. 11:32).
Paul is talking about Israel in Romans 11.
Romans 11:
28 From the standpoint of the gospel they [Israel] are enemies for your [Gentiles] sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they [Israel] are beloved for the sake of the fathers;
29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
30 For just as you [Gentiles] once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their [Israel's] disobedience,
31 so these [Israel] also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you [Gentiles] they [Israel] also may now be shown mercy.
32 For God has shut up all [Israel] in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all [Gentiles].
Because Israel rejected the cornerstone, grace has come to the Gentiles:
Romans 9:
30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith;
31 but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law.
32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,
33 just as it is written,
"BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE,
AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."
It's Israel's own fault because they pursued righteousness by works, not faith. They stumbled, allowing grace to come to Gentiles, who did attain righteousness by faith.
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lock
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 8/9/2004 7:50 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sisters of Cain
quote:
Originally posted by lock
God locks up all in stubbornness, that He should be merciful to all (Rom. 11:32).
Paul is talking about Israel in Romans 11.
Romans 11:
28 From the standpoint of the gospel they [Israel] are enemies for your [Gentiles] sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they [Israel] are beloved for the sake of the fathers;
29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
30 For just as you [Gentiles] once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their [Israel's] disobedience,
31 so these [Israel] also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you [Gentiles] they [Israel] also may now be shown mercy.
32 For God has shut up all [Israel] in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all [Gentiles].
Because Israel rejected the cornerstone, grace has come to the Gentiles:
Romans 9:
30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith;
31 but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law.
32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,
33 just as it is written,
"BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE,
AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."
It's Israel's own fault because they pursued righteousness by works, not faith. They stumbled, allowing grace to come to Gentiles, who did attain righteousness by faith.
I would have to disagree with your interpretation of the word ALL only meaning Israel in one half of verse 32 and the ALL in the second half only meaning Gentiles.
Lock
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 8/9/2004 8:12 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
quote:
Originally posted by Sisters of Cain
quote:
Originally posted by lock
God locks up all in stubbornness, that He should be merciful to all (Rom. 11:32).
Paul is talking about Israel in Romans 11.
Romans 11:
28 From the standpoint of the gospel they [Israel] are enemies for your [Gentiles] sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they [Israel] are beloved for the sake of the fathers;
29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
30 For just as you [Gentiles] once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their [Israel's] disobedience,
31 so these [Israel] also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you [Gentiles] they [Israel] also may now be shown mercy.
32 For God has shut up all [Israel] in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all [Gentiles].
Because Israel rejected the cornerstone, grace has come to the Gentiles:
Romans 9:
30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith;
31 but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law.
32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,
33 just as it is written,
"BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE,
AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."
It's Israel's own fault because they pursued righteousness by works, not faith. They stumbled, allowing grace to come to Gentiles, who did attain righteousness by faith.
I would have to disagree with your interpretation of the word ALL only meaning Israel in one half of verse 32 and the ALL in the second half only meaning Gentiles.
I see your point:
quote:
Commentaries:
Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown
Romans 11:32
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief--"hath shut them all up to unbelief"
that he might have mercy upon all--that is, those "all" of whom he had been discoursing; the Gentiles first, and after them the Jews [FRITZSCHE, THOLUCK, OLSHAUSEN, DE WETTE, PHILIPPI, STUART, HODGE]. Certainly it is not "all mankind individually" [MEYER, ALFORD]; for the apostle is not here dealing with individuals, but with those great divisions of mankind, Jew and Gentile. And what he here says is that God's purpose was to shut each of these divisions of men to the experience first of an humbled, condemned state, without Christ, and then to the experience of His mercy in Christ.
This mirrors verse 30 where Gentiles were once disobedient to God and Israel became disobedient.
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 8/9/2004 4:02 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sisters of Cain
quote:
Originally posted by lock
quote:
Originally posted by Sisters of Cain
quote:
Originally posted by lock
God locks up all in stubbornness, that He should be merciful to all (Rom. 11:32).
Paul is talking about Israel in Romans 11.
Romans 11:
28 From the standpoint of the gospel they [Israel] are enemies for your [Gentiles] sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they [Israel] are beloved for the sake of the fathers;
29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
30 For just as you [Gentiles] once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their [Israel's] disobedience,
31 so these [Israel] also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you [Gentiles] they [Israel] also may now be shown mercy.
32 For God has shut up all [Israel] in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all [Gentiles].
Because Israel rejected the cornerstone, grace has come to the Gentiles:
Romans 9:
30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith;
31 but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law.
32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,
33 just as it is written,
"BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE,
AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."
It's Israel's own fault because they pursued righteousness by works, not faith. They stumbled, allowing grace to come to Gentiles, who did attain righteousness by faith.
I would have to disagree with your interpretation of the word ALL only meaning Israel in one half of verse 32 and the ALL in the second half only meaning Gentiles.
I see your point:
quote:
Commentaries:
Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown
Romans 11:32
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief--"hath shut them all up to unbelief"
that he might have mercy upon all--that is, those "all" of whom he had been discoursing; the Gentiles first, and after them the Jews [FRITZSCHE, THOLUCK, OLSHAUSEN, DE WETTE, PHILIPPI, STUART, HODGE]. Certainly it is not "all mankind individually" [MEYER, ALFORD]; for the apostle is not here dealing with individuals, but with those great divisions of mankind, Jew and Gentile. And what he here says is that God's purpose was to shut each of these divisions of men to the experience first of an humbled, condemned state, without Christ, and then to the experience of His mercy in Christ.
This mirrors verse 30 where Gentiles were once disobedient to God and Israel became disobedient.
Jews and gentiles does cover ALL mankind for God has divided the world between the 2 groups, His chosen People and the Gentiles. Do you believe that Israel will stay locked up in stubborness? And if God were to release them from their stubbornness, would He them lock the Gentiles back in it? But wait, you don't believe all this anyway because God wouldn't do this to people because their free well is dominant over God's. So, do you really believe God has locked up Israel in stubbornness, because that doesn't leave much room for Israel's free choice in the matter now does it?
Lock
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 8/10/2004 1:54 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
But wait, you don't believe all this anyway because God wouldn't do this to people because their free well is dominant over God's.
Do you have children? Did you give them more and more freedom to make their own choices as they got older?
Because they had some free choices, does that mean their will was "dominant" over yours?
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 8/10/2004 3:43 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
Jews and gentiles does cover ALL mankind for God has divided the world between the 2 groups, His chosen People and the Gentiles. Do you believe that Israel will stay locked up in stubborness?
Since they locked themselves up, through their disobedience (Romans 11:30, 31, Romans 9:31, 32), they can attain their release through faith in Jesus (as the Gentiles do).
Ever heard of Jews for Jesus? Members of Israel, who chose to obey the call of Christ.
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 8/10/2004 11:12 AM (GMT -6) | | The word "locked" is also translated "concluded." Either way, Romans 11:32 is a most powerful verse against Calvinism.
God has concluded all MANKIND are sinners (all have sinned). As Jesus said, "He that commits sin is the SLAVE of sin." Therefore if they are sinners, they are SLAVES and are quite obviously "locked up" or "concluded" (confirmed) in their rebellious ways. This is a consistent theme of Scripture--God gives people what they want (e.g., Romans 1). Total moral depravity (sinfulness) is entered into voluntarily by all, but once one chooses, they are "stuck" so to speak, just like Brer Rabbit and the Tar Baby.
"So that he might have mercy on them ALL"
Just as He argued in Romans 3, Paul is here reiterating God's willingness to save all, if they will meet the conditions laid down earlier in chapter elevent--"if they continue not in their unbelief." This applies to ALL, both Jews and Gentiles.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 8/11/2004 1:54 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi everyone,
quote:
John: God has concluded all MANKIND are sinners (all have sinned). As Jesus said, "He that commits sin is the SLAVE of sin." Therefore if they are sinners, they are SLAVES and are quite obviously "locked up" or "concluded" (confirmed) in their rebellious ways.
But God didn't lock them up, then! They locked themselves up. "Concluded" is an old English usage, that used to mean what "locked up" or "bound" means today:
Obsolete. To confine; enclose. (from dictionary.com)
quote:
"So that he might have mercy on them ALL"
Just as He argued in Romans 3, Paul is here reiterating God's willingness to save all, if they will meet the conditions laid down earlier in chapter eleven--"if they continue not in their unbelief." This applies to ALL, both Jews and Gentiles.
I agree that this applies to everyone! And this is not just willingness, this is purpose. The reason for locking them up, was to show them mercy. And this is under God's control:
Romans 9:15-16 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.
Blessings,
Lee
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