 |
| 
lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 8/19/2004 4:01 PM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
Originally posted by Sisters of Cain
quote:
Originally posted by lock
Jews and gentiles does cover ALL mankind for God has divided the world between the 2 groups, His chosen People and the Gentiles. Do you believe that Israel will stay locked up in stubborness?
Since they locked themselves up, through their disobedience (Romans 11:30, 31, Romans 9:31, 32), they can attain their release through faith in Jesus (as the Gentiles do).
Ever heard of Jews for Jesus? Members of Israel, who chose to obey the call of Christ.
The verse clearly states God locked them up in stubborness, not that they locked themselves up
Lock
His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. | | Back to Top | | |
 |
JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 8/19/2004 6:31 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Lee Merrill
Hi everyone,
quote:
John: God has concluded all MANKIND are sinners (all have sinned). As Jesus said, "He that commits sin is the SLAVE of sin." Therefore if they are sinners, they are SLAVES and are quite obviously "locked up" or "concluded" (confirmed) in their rebellious ways.
But God didn't lock them up, then! They locked themselves up. "Concluded" is an old English usage, that used to mean what "locked up" or "bound" means today:
As a judge consigns a person to prison as a result of their own choices, God can certainly lock people up in sin who have already made their choice to violate His law.
quote:
Romans 9:15-16 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.
Blessings,
Lee
Romans 9 is referring to nations (people groups). He is saying, "I will have mercy on whom I will (believing Gentiles, in this instance), and will harden whom I will (unbelieving Jews, in this instance). Again, God gives people what they want--mercy or hardness of heart.
http://revivaltheology.net | | Back to Top | | |
|
Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 8/21/2004 6:51 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi Jee,
quote:
Lee: "Concluded" is an old English usage, that used to mean what "locked up" or "bound" means today...
Jee: As a judge consigns a person to prison as a result of their own choices, God can certainly lock people up in sin who have already made their choice to violate His law.
But "locked up to disobedience" is more than "locked up as a punishment." It means they don't have a choice to obey, until God releases them.
quote:
Romans 9:15-16 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.
Jee: Romans 9 is referring to nations (people groups). He is saying, "I will have mercy on whom I will (believing Gentiles, in this instance), and will harden whom I will (unbelieving Jews, in this instance). Again, God gives people what they want--mercy or hardness of heart.
Then it does depend on man's desire or effort…
Blessings,
Lee
==================================================
"Even now we seem to have dim glimpses into regions
from which we receive no word to bring away" (George MacDonald) | | Back to Top | | |
|
Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 8/21/2004 6:55 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
The verse clearly states God locked them up in stubborness, not that they locked themselves up
Romans 11:
28 From the standpoint of the gospel they [Israel] are enemies for your [Gentiles] sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they [Israel] are beloved for the sake of the fathers;
29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
30 For just as you [Gentiles] once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their [Israel's] disobedience,
31 so these [Israel] also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you [Gentiles] they [Israel] also may now be shown mercy.
32 For God has shut up all [Israel] in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all [Gentiles].
That's why we read more than just a verse.
If God unilaterally locked Israel up in disobedience, He would NOT credit them with ownership.
Since Israel is given credit for their disobedience (despite being God's choice, verse 28), God is using the opportunity of their disobedience to bring mercy to the Gentiles.
| | Back to Top | | |
|
Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 8/21/2004 7:04 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by JEE
[Romans 9 is referring to nations (people groups). He is saying, "I will have mercy on whom I will (believing Gentiles, in this instance), and will harden whom I will (unbelieving Jews, in this instance). Again, God gives people what they want--mercy or hardness of heart.
There you go, Earp, reading more than one verse.... 
Why would you want to know the context???
Romans 9:
9 For this is the word of promise: "AT THIS TIME I WILL COME, AND SARAH SHALL HAVE A SON."
10 And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac;
11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,
12 it was said to her, "THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER."
13 Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED."
Genesis 25:
21 Isaac prayed to the LORD on behalf of his wife, because she was barren; and the LORD answered him and Rebekah his wife conceived.
22 But the children struggled together within her; and she said, "If it is so, why then am I this way?" So she went to inquire of the LORD.
23 The LORD said to her,
"Two nations are in your womb;
And two peoples will be separated from your body;
And one people shall be stronger than the other;
And the older shall serve the younger."
| | Back to Top | | |
|
lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 8/24/2004 4:52 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sisters of Cain
quote:
Originally posted by lock
The verse clearly states God locked them up in stubborness, not that they locked themselves up
Romans 11:
28 From the standpoint of the gospel they [Israel] are enemies for your [Gentiles] sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they [Israel] are beloved for the sake of the fathers;
29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
30 For just as you [Gentiles] once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their [Israel's] disobedience,
31 so these [Israel] also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you [Gentiles] they [Israel] also may now be shown mercy.
32 For God has shut up all [Israel] in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all [Gentiles].
That's why we read more than just a verse.
If God unilaterally locked Israel up in disobedience, He would NOT credit them with ownership.
Since Israel is given credit for their disobedience (despite being God's choice, verse 28), God is using the opportunity of their disobedience to bring mercy to the Gentiles.
SOC-
But just above the verse you highlighted it speaks of the Gentiles once being disobedient. When v. 32 says all it means all. So, yes I would agree with you that we need to read more then one verse.
Lock
His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. | | Back to Top | | |
|
lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 8/24/2004 5:06 PM (GMT -6) | | The verse in question (Romans 11:32) shows that God influences choices. I am not saying that we are robots that will obey all commands or that the "love of God is forced on us" or that we are "raped by God". Man has the ability to make choices using his free will, but God will influence those choices when needs be so that His will, divine purpose, and words will not fall to the ground. Why does one need to be born again to enter the kingdom of heaven? God will influence them by writing His law in their inward parts and in their heart (Jer. 31:33). When Solomon dedicated the temple to God he prayed ans asked that God would "incline our hearts unto Him, to wlak in all His ways, and to keep His commandments, and His statues, and His judgments, which He commanded our fathers."
Lock
His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. | | Back to Top | | |
|
Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 8/25/2004 4:08 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi everyone,
quote:
Norman Giesler, and avid opponent of Open Theism, Admits that The Its is not "of the man who wills or run" admits that the Greek word for "of" means "out of" refering to the source of salvation, not the means of Obtaining it.
Paul is indeed talking about salvation here in Rom. 9, though:
Rom. 9:3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my kinsmen according to the flesh.
Romans 9:15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
There's more going on here than just choosing a nation! It's about mercy and compassion, this is not just saying "I choose a special people."
Romans 9:23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory...
Paul applies his previous points to "us"! Prepared in advance for membership? No, for glory...
Romans 9:26 "It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,' they will be called 'sons of the living God.'"
There is a group here, though! It's the group of people who are sons of God, who are saved.
Romans 9:27 ... only the remnant will be saved.
There it is in plain words, this passage is about salvation.
Romans 9:30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith...
Not "they obtained group membership."
Romans 9:33 "... the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."
That's faith! Saving faith...
Blessings,
Lee
==================================================
"Even now we seem to have dim glimpses into regions
from which we receive no word to bring away" (George MacDonald) | | Back to Top | | |
| 91 posts in this thread.
Viewing Page : 1 2 3 4 |
| Forum Information | Currently it is Monday, November 09, 2026 6:27 PM (GMT -6)
There are a total of 97,718 posts in 6,040 threads.
In the last 3 days there were 0 new threads and 0 reply posts. View Active Threads
|
Forum powered by dotNetBB v2.42EC SP3
dotNetBB © 2000-2026 |
|
|