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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 7/16/2004 6:03 PM (GMT -6) |   | Hello. I am new to the website and I was checking some of the conversation and I was wondering how Open View Theism justifies Romans chapter 9 which states that "it is not of him who is willing, nor of him who is racing, but of God, the Merciful (v. 16)" and "Consequently, then, to whom He will, He is merciful, yet who He will, He is hardening (v. 18)". Paul goes on to say that God forms the vessels of mercy and He forms vessels of indignation fitted for destruction (v.22-23). Romans 11:32 tells us that "God locks up all together in stubbornness, that He may be merciful to all." And lastly in Romans 12:3 Paul writes that "God parts to each a measure of faith." These verses teach God is in control of all.
His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. | | Back to Top | | |
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God_Is_Truth
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Date Joined Nov 2003
Total Posts : 33
| Posted 7/16/2004 7:19 PM (GMT -6) | | An Open View Summary of Romans Chapter Nine
Paul ponders the state of his people, the Jews. In spite of every advantage, they have rejected Christ and are cut off, while the Gentiles—total strangers to the covenants—have received Israel’s Messiah in droves. What is to account for this? Has God changed his mind regarding his promise to Abraham and his seed? If he has, then can even the Gentiles, who at present are entering the Kingdom in such great numbers, trust God?
Paul refers to the Patriarchs, Sarah, Rebecca, and other OT passages to argue that physical descent and religious law-keeping have never been the basis upon which God favored people. Instead, God alone reserves the right to determine the basis upon which people relate to him and receive his favor.
God’s choice of Jacob over Esau was irrespective of anything either good or bad in them. But how are we to understand this choice? What does it demonstrate? Are we to understand simply that Israel’s rejection of Christ is in fact the playing out of God’s predetermined will for them? What’s the point of the Jacob/Esau episode if not to prove that God predetermines each individual’s eternal destiny?
As I see it, the episode is brought in to demonstrate God’s right to set his own rules for determining who is and who is not a member of the covenant community. Paul’s objectors argued that God had bound himself by covenant to bless Abraham’s “physical” seed, and to them he had given his Law. And so Paul’s gospel of faith and not works could not possibly be God’s way, for it displaced both “lineage” and “law” in the Jewish understanding of the God-Man relationship.
Paul replies that God will not be prevailed upon by such claims. He alone freely decides the rule that determines who inherits, who is blessed, who is rejected, etc. Even more importantly for our discussion, however, God HAS made this rule clear. It is “faith in God’s promise.” “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy” refers not to some hidden, unconditional, predetermining of individuals to salvation. It refers to God’s right to unconditionally predetermine faith, not the possession of a particular physical lineage or of God’s law, as the condition upon which people will relate to him and receive his favor.
Now unbelieving Jews find themselves in the position of being the vessels which are being prepared for destruction, in the position of hardened Pharaoh, while believing Gentiles are Abraham’s children! To the Jews this appeared unjust, for God had obligated himself to favor Abraham’s “physical” offspring. To this Paul retorts, “Who are you to question God?"
Jacob and Esau thus demonstrate God’s right to set the rules as he wishes, his right to establish the basis upon which men will relate to him. Where I differ from my determinist brothers is in my belief that God has in fact revealed what this basis is. He has revealed how he determines who gets saved and who doesn’t. There’s no mystery. Instead of viewing the gospel merely as God’s means for REVEALING the identity of those eternally PREDETERMINED to salvation and/or damnation, I believe Paul viewed it as God’s means for DETERMINING who is saved and who is damned. The difference is more than semantic. In the first, the gospel merely reveals an already determined reality; in the later, the gospel (God’s offer and our response to it) actually determines that reality.
Lastly, and fortunately for us, Paul himself summarizes his own position in vv. 30-33. All of Paul's arguments have led here. And here we find that the contrasting responses of Jews and Gentiles toward the gospel are entirely the result of their own willingness—or lack thereof—to believe.
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The Potter/Clay Imagery of Romans 9.21
“Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?”
Analogies often have several possible points of comparison and/or contrast, and one must discover via context which point is being made by the author. What’s the point of the application in its context? I’d like to make a brief investigation into the Potter/Clay imagery in the Old Testament and offer on this basis one Open Viewer’s understanding of Rom. 9.21. Three significant OT texts make use of the Potter/Clay imagery: Jer. 18.1-12; Isa. 29.13-16; and Isa. 45.9-13. The Jeremiah passage is very telling.
Jer. 18.3-4 “So I went down to the potter’s house, and I saw him working at the
wheel. But the pot he was shaping from the clay was marred in his hands; so the
potter formed it into another pot, shaping it as seemed best to him.” (RSV)
Note the following:
a) The potter was shaping a pot (v. 3)
b) But the pot was marred (v. 4a)
c) So (consequent to “b”) he formed it into something else (v. 4b)
Verse 4 describes WHY the Potter’s original intentions for the clay were not fulfilled and why he designed something new. As the a-c layout of the imagery above reveals, God may a) genuinely intend a course of action, but b) due to conditions present in men c) decide to change his mind and pursue a different course of action. This change of mind is as real for the Potter as it is for the clay. God and Israel together face genuine alternatives in the interplay of their give-and-take, reciprocal relationship. Much depends upon the clay, as God’s subsequent word through Jeremiah reveals (18.7-12):
v. 7 If I… a) God’s original intention (to judge)
v. 8a and if they… b) Man’s response (repentance/obedience)
v. 8b Then I… c) God’s altered intention (to bless)
OR
v. 9 If I… a) God’s original intention (to bless)
v. 10a and if they… b) Man’s response (disobedience)
v. 10b Then I… c) God’s altered intention (to judge)
The change of mind in BOTH directions (from intended judgment to intended blessing, and visa versa) is necessary to drive home to Israel the point that God relates reciprocally to man and that though God once intended blessing for Israel but altered this in response to their rebellion, nevertheless the judgment he presently has planned for them may again be altered. God does change his mind and the change is not rhetorical.
The point of the imagery, then, is to affirm a) that genuine alternatives exist, even from God’s point of view, and b) that God retains the free, sovereign right as the Potter to determine what the outcomes are to be both for choosing to repent and for choosing to continue on in rebellion. What is NOT predetermined by God is whether or not Israel will repent. In my view, genuinely reciprocal, give-and-take relationships of the sort described by Jeremiah here are not possible in an exhaustively predetermined world.
Again, it should be stressed that Paul’s own summary (“What then?” Rm 9.30) of the Potter/Clay application to the problem of Israel in his day confirms that he understood Israel’s rejection of the gospel to be God’s response to the misguided Jewish claim to favor based on lineage and law-keeping, a response which was not itself chosen by God for them.
As the Potter, God has the sovereign right to define faith as the basis upon which he bestows his favor. As clay, Israel was (and is!) responsible to believe or not, which in turn determines what sort of vessel she becomes.
Finally, the Potter/Clay imagery in Jeremiah 18 proves that God’s intentions, once determined in his own mind, are not necessarily fixed and unchangeable. God is free to alter them, to change is mind, and to pursue new and different courses of action in response to changing circumstances.
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Potter/Clay Imagery in Isaiah, Rom. 9.21 Continued
Turning to two Isaiah texts, first Isa. 29:15-16:
“15 Woe to those who hide deep from the LORD their counsel, whose deeds are in
the dark, and who say, ‘Who sees us? Who knows us?’ 16 You turn things upside
down! Shall the potter be regarded as the clay; that the thing made should say of
its maker, ‘He did not make me’; or the thing formed say of him who formed it,
‘He has no understanding’?”
Several things. First, the point of this passage and its immediate context is to challenge Israel’s claim that her existence and survival as a nation are the result of her own doing (“He did not make me” v. 16), and that her present actions are entirely hidden from the Lord (“He knows nothing” v. 16). Thus, Israel had denied a) God’s historical role in choosing and delivering them and b) his abiding providential care for and knowledge of them. To address THIS attitude Isaiah makes use of the Potter/Clay analogy.
Secondly, Isaiah’s use of this imagery reflects only a slightly different application than that of Jeremiah. Jeremiah uses the imagery to affirm that judgment and blessing are God’s “response” to Israel. Isaiah uses this imagery to remind Israel that they didn’t create themselves, that God is their “maker” and that he directs their present formation and defines the consequences of their actions. Jeremiah stresses the clay and its responsiveness while Isaiah stresses the Potter’s freedom. Isaiah 29 is a picture of the pot saying, “I got here by myself,” to which God replies, “No, I made you a nation and I decide what happens to you should you choose to ignore me now.” Jeremiah 18 on the other hand is a picture of the clay saying, “It’s no use! God has determined judgment for us and it’s fixed,” to which God replies, “I freely determine the options and the consequences, but you make the choice.”
Moving on to Isa. 45.9-12(13):
“9 Woe to him who strives with his Maker, an earthen vessel with the potter!
Does the clay say to him who fashions it, ‘What are you making’? or ‘Your work
has no handles’? 10 Woe to him who says to a father, ‘What are you begetting?’
or to a woman, ‘With what are you in travail?’” 11 Thus says the LORD, the Holy
One of Israel, and his Maker: ‘Will you question me about my children, or
command me concerning the work of my hands? 12 I made the earth, and
created man upon it; it was my hands that stretched out the heavens, and I
commanded all their host.’”
Here Isaiah makes essentially the same point he makes in Ch. 29, to affirm to Israel that their existence and unique status as a nation lie not with themselves but with God, their “Maker” and “Creator,” something God wants them to recognize and submit to for their own benefit. The imagery of Potter/Clay is brought in NOT to demonstrate that God predetermines the salvation of people unconditionally, but rather to demonstrate the stupidity of the independent claim, by a man or a nation, that one’s existence, survival and future begin and end with oneself.
Nothing about the Potter/Clay analogy in the OT or NT leads us to conclude that God unconditionally predetermines the eternal destiny of individuals, which determinists understand to be the point of Paul’s use of the imagery in Rom. 9.21. Given Jeremiah and Isaiah’s use of the analogy, Paul would hardly be making such a point. Thus, in my view, Paul’s use of the Potter/Clay imagery in Rom. 9.21 only disproves the Jewish claim that God is unjust in rejecting Israel, that in hardening them he was unfaithful to his covenant obligations
http://www.gregboyd.org/gbfront/Custom/4/Documents/beltstudies.htm | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/17/2004 9:55 AM (GMT -6) | | When scripture says J. have I loved and E. have I hated, that is a statement of God's "sovereignty" to save those who would be saved and to not save those who wish to choose darkness instead. It is a statement, fundamentally, that we do not force anything on God. Life in him, and loving him and loving others with his love through us is the only criteria. Christ is the sole criteria, and being in him is salvation. Soverienty is saying who is sovereign--and its not us.
It does not mean that God "wills any to perish." | | Back to Top | | |
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feelinahole
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 7/18/2004 6:43 PM (GMT -6) | | Lock: one doesn't postulate what the consequences are of your biblical beliefs if you believe it as if that somehow determines your belief, but rather what the Bible actually teaches. If the Bible teaches free will, so be it. Glory to God. If not glory to God.
God is the ground of our salvation, but God has determined that faith is the means. | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 7/18/2004 8:41 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
A common theme in the replies, is man's free will. If salvation is an offer from God for man to choose to accept or not, then is not that putting soveriegnty into man's hands and out of God's, being that man ultimately determines his fate?
It is putting enough into human hands to account for human responsibility, but it doesn't take God off his throne of make him less than sovereign, for it is GOD who freely determined a) the offer, b) the conditions of the offer, and c) the consequences of accepting and rejecting the offer. With God determining THESE, how is sovereignty entirely taken out of God's hands and placed into human hands simply because God grants humans freedom to choose ONLY with respect to (b) whether they'll accept the offer or not? Looks to me like God is sovereign even if we are granted by God the freedom in this one area to say "no" to him.
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
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Bobber
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 199
| Posted 7/18/2004 9:20 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Looks to me like God is sovereign even if we are granted by God the freedom in this one area to say "no" to him.
And perhaps it can be put like this Tom, God is sovereign and can do whatever he wants but apart of what he wants is to set up a system by which man can freely choose his destiny. It's his universe and if he wants to do that he's sovereign. Actually thats what the book of Romans was trying to get across in chapter 9 etc that who is man to tell God how he should set up his plan and way of salvation. If he wanted salvation to be by grace and not trying by to keep the law he had every right to do so. The Jews however went about trying to establish their own righteousness not by faith through grace but by the law. 
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Sisters of Cain
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Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 7/19/2004 12:47 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
Isn't saying God is soveriegn, but man has free will to accept His offer or not a way of wanting your cake and eating it too?
No.
The King of England used to have "sovereignty" over much of the world, yet all participants had "free will" within that realm.
An offer, by definition, can be accepted or rejected; NO ONE claims responsibility for have procured a gift by merely accepting it.
An unaccepted gift just lays there on the ground, worthless.
A "gift" FORCED on someone by COERCION is not a gift.
2 Corinthians 4:4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
Matthew 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the ruler of this world be cast out.
John 14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the ruler of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.
John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.
Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Ephesians 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 7/19/2004 3:31 PM (GMT -6) | |
The King of England used to have "sovereignty" over much of the world, yet all participants had "free will" within that realm.
True; but did the king of England create the world? This would not be the correct comparision. Satan is now the ruler of this age, this current evil era. But that does not mean God does not control Satan's actions. Satan only does what he is allowed to do. If salvation was truly in the hands of mankind to decide, then all would be lost because no one seeks after God (Romans 3:11) and God locks up all in stubborness, so that He may have mercy on all (Romans 11:32). There is no way I would have choose God, through my sinful flesh I love the darkness. For me to take any credit whatsoever for God's salvation, would take away from His glory. I do not feel forced into salvation, God's love and grace overwhelms me. If I chose God then I would have a reason to boast because I made the right decision (Rom. 3:27).
His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. | | Back to Top | | |
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selah
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 7/20/2004 2:40 AM (GMT -6) | | I agree with your post worm. That's the way I see it too. 100%.
Now, what about your name? When I read it, I thought:
"wormbowedb4terriblegod"
sad sad poor poor little worm...
awww
stand up little worm, stand up.
See, God isn't so terrible after all.
People just make Him out to be that way because they forget about Jesus...
Come on, look at the big picture
look at Jesus, doesn't He look nice?
surely He doesn't think your a worm...
Jesus is the "picture" of God, see.
you're worth everything to Him
He gave His life for you
stand up little worm, stand up.
...
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 7/20/2004 3:00 AM (GMT -6) | | Everyone knows that "sovereign" doesn't mean meticulous control. No king in history exercised that kind of control, yet were described as sovereigns.
The same goes for "gift". The reason translators used "gift" was that all cultures understand what gifts are. Gifts are given and gifts are received. NO ONE reasons that when they receive a free gift, they are claiming credit for the procurement of the gift.
An unreceived gift just sits there, worthless.
To redefine these words, "sovereignty" and "gift", to fit a fatalistic-deterministic framework is ridiculous.
Scripture was meant to communicate with us, hence it uses words as we use them. | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/20/2004 3:37 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 7/20/2004 1:17 PM (GMT -6) | | The same goes for "gift". The reason translators used "gift" was that all cultures understand what gifts are. Gifts are given and gifts are received. NO ONE reasons that when they receive a free gift, they are claiming credit for the procurement of the gift.
An unreceived gift just sits there, worthless.
Sisters- I would agree with you but, In Eph. 2:8 we are told that salvation is the gift of God. The Greek word here translated gift is doron. Doron is not used as a common gift, such as a birthday or house warming gift. Doron is used as an offering gift or sacrifice and it is used in Matthew 2:11; 5:22-23; 8:4; 23:18-19, etc as the approach gifts and offering brought to God to fulfill the commandments of the law and it is used in Heb. 11:4 refering to Abel's sacrifice. The gift of salvation from God is not your common, everyday gift, it is the sacrifice that reconciles us to God. The type of gift you are refering to is used in Phil. 4:17 and the greek word used there is doma.
As far as God's sovereignty is concerned, He declares through Isaiah the prophet (Is. 46:9-10) "Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God and there is none like Me. Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, "My counsel shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure"
And what is the end? Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians 15 that at the consummation all sovereignty and all authority and power will be nullified and will be placed under the Son by the Father and then the Son will give up the kingdom to the Father, and God will be ALL in ALL (1 Corinthians 15:22-28). God declared His plan for His creation from the beginning and For His glory He will carry it out to His pleasure.
His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. | | Back to Top | | |
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edcaina
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Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 12
| Posted 7/20/2004 2:09 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Lee Merrill
Welcome, Lock!
quote:
An Open View Summary of Romans Chapter Nine
Eeek! A lot to process, here...
I would only point out that though Paul speaks of groups in Romans 9, he also speaks of choosing people within those groups, thus he speaks of individual election. And the area of choice involves salvation, though not in every instance. But that is the main concern of the passage!
Romans 9:3 For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race...
Romans 10:1 Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved.
Blessings,
Lee
Election unto salvation? If Paul was talking about election unto salvation in Romans 9 (and that he knew that God have already done the choosing milion of years ago, at least), why could Paul still sincerely pray for the Israelite that they may be saved?
I see Romans 9 as showing God's sovereign right to choose whom he wants to as an INSTRUMENT to his specific purpose. The election, therefore, is an election unto purpose, not unto salvation.
Here is Paul’s series of illustrations that God could sovereignly do whatever he wants to do (notice that the idea of election unto salvation is foreign to the texts):
1. God sovereignly chose Isaac descendants over Ishmael descendants to be his children (i.e., chosen people) (9:6-10)
2. God sovereignly chose the younger Jacob to be served by the older Esau (9:10-13)
3. God sovereignly raised up Pharaoh to demonstrate his power (9:17)
4. And the same is true of what God has done with those who rejected God’s CORNER STONE. Although he wanted to show his anger and to make his power known. But he sovereignly decided to be very patient by enduring those who were the objects of his anger, who were doomed to destruction. (9:22,23)
Contrary to Calvin’s opinion that God created vessels of wrath fitted for destruction, the vessels or wrath Paul was talking about were those Jews who rejected the Christ, the Capstone (Matt. 21:36-44; cf. Rom. 9:30-33). | | Back to Top | | |
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 7/20/2004 3:46 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi everyone,
quote:
Lee: I would only point out that though Paul speaks of groups in Romans 9, he also speaks of choosing people within those groups, thus he speaks of individual election. And the area of choice involves salvation, though not in every instance. But that is the main concern of the passage!
Edcaina: Election unto salvation? If Paul was talking about election unto salvation in Romans 9 (and that he knew that God have already done the choosing million of years ago, at least), why could Paul still sincerely pray for the Israelite that they may be saved?
"May" doesn't say one way or the other, I agree, that is not Paul's point in Rom. 9:1 and 10:1. But it shows that the discussion between those verses is talking about salvation, and there Paul does say God chooses, and thus chooses for salvation:
Rom. 9:25-26 As indeed he says in Hosea, "Those who were not my people I will call 'my people,' and her who was not beloved I will call 'beloved.'" "And in the very place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,' there they will be called 'sons of the living God.'"
This is talking about belonging to God, and thus about salvation.
quote:
I see Romans 9 as showing God's sovereign right to choose whom he wants to as an INSTRUMENT to his specific purpose. The election, therefore, is an election unto purpose, not unto salvation.
Rom. 9:23 ... in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory ...
If the purpose is what the choice is about, does that mean God chose Paul and his hearers to show mercy to someone else? No, the choice is "for glory," for them, thus they are chosen for mercy for them, and similarly with the vessels of wrath.
quote:
Contrary to Calvin’s opinion that God created vessels of wrath fitted for destruction, the vessels or wrath Paul was talking about were those Jews who rejected the Christ, the Capstone (Matt. 21:36-44; cf. Rom. 9:30-33).
But more than just Jews of Paul's day are passed over in this passage, thus "vessels of wrath" refers to Esau, to Pharaoh, to those who reject God:
Ephesians 5:6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.
quote:
Sisters: "sovereign" doesn't mean meticulous control. No king in history exercised that kind of control, yet were described as sovereigns.
God's sovereignty is different! God said "let there be light," and that did not mean there might be light, or that there would be a punishment if no light appeared. And Paul applies this to salvation:
2 Corinthians 4:6 For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
When God sends his word, he succeeds in his purpose!
Isaiah 55:11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.
Blessings,
Lee
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"Even now we seem to have dim glimpses into regions
from which we receive no word to bring away" (George MacDonald) | | Back to Top | | |
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 7/20/2004 5:33 PM (GMT -6) | | When Paul wrote to the Romans, he did not use the chapter breaks. Chapters 9-11 should be read together. Near the end of chapter 11 Paul concludes the section by saying,
"for unregretted are the graces and the calling of God. For even as you (the Gentiles) once were stubborn toward God, yet now were shown mercy at their (Israel) stubborness, thus these also are now stubborn to this mercy of yours, that now they also may be shown mercy. For God locks up all together in stubborness, that He may be merciful to all. O, the depth of the riches and the wisdom of God! How inscrutable are His judgments, and untraceable His ways! For, who knew the mind of the Lord? or, who became His advisor? or, who gives to Him first, and it will be repaid him? seeing that OUT OF HIM AND THROUGH HIM AND FOR HIM IS ALL: to Him be glory for the eons! Amen! (Romans 11:29-36)
This section of Paul's letter speaks of the salvation of both the Israelites and the Gentiles and how His dealings with both groups are all a part of His plan for His creation.
I would agree with Lee in that "May" doesn't go either way, because only God can know who truly is saved or not.
His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. | | Back to Top | | |
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 7/21/2004 2:21 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
Sisters- I would agree with you but, In Eph. 2:8 we are told that salvation is the gift of God. The Greek word here translated gift is doron. Doron is not used as a common gift, such as a birthday or house warming gift. Doron is used as an offering gift or sacrifice and it is used in Matthew 2:11; 5:22-23; 8:4; 23:18-19, etc as the approach gifts and offering brought to God to fulfill the commandments of the law and it is used in Heb. 11:4 refering to Abel's sacrifice. The gift of salvation from God is not your common, everyday gift, it is the sacrifice that reconciles us to God. The type of gift you are refering to is used in Phil. 4:17 and the greek word used there is doma.
All gifts need to be received, even God accepted/received the doron from His people.
God's people were told to bring an acceptable sacrifice/gift to Him. Genesis 4:5, Cain didn't bring an acceptable gift/offering, God rejected it, i.e. didn't receive it.
doron or doma, gifts/offerings/sacrifices need to be acceptable in order to be accepted/received
God uses a concept we understand, gift giving and receiving, in order to explain His plan of salvation. He offers the gift of salvation to ALL, many receive the gift, many reject the gift.
"that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life"
quote:
As far as God's sovereignty is concerned, He declares through Isaiah the prophet (Is. 46:9-10) "Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God and there is none like Me. Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, "My counsel shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure"
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
If God is willing, than NONE will perish, ALL will come to repentance, right? But MANY perish and NOT ALL come to repentance, because there's freedom in the kingdom of God.
Matthew 23:37 "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling."
God wanted to gather them BUT they were unwilling.
There's freedom under the reign of God.
Of course, there's also the problem that Satan is the ruler of this world.
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 7/21/2004 2:25 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by edcaina
Election unto salvation? If Paul was talking about election unto salvation in Romans 9 (and that he knew that God have already done the choosing milion of years ago, at least), why could Paul still sincerely pray for the Israelite that they may be saved?
I see Romans 9 as showing God's sovereign right to choose whom he wants to as an INSTRUMENT to his specific purpose. The election, therefore, is an election unto purpose, not unto salvation.
Yeah!
Romans 9:
10 And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac;
11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,
12 it was said to her, "THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER."
13 Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED."
Genesis 25:23 The LORD said to her,
"Two nations are in your womb;
And two peoples will be separated from your body;
And one people shall be stronger than the other;
And the older shall serve the younger."
God's election was between two nations, not two individuals.
First covenant, God chooses Abraham (and by default those who would be born into Abraham, some opt out, like Aachan, some opt in, like Rahab)
Second covenant, God chooses Jesus (and by default those who will be spiritually reborn into Jesus)
The election is GROUPS, not individuals.
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 7/21/2004 3:59 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi Sisters,
quote:
God uses a concept we understand, gift giving and receiving, in order to explain His plan of salvation. He offers the gift of salvation to ALL, many receive the gift, many reject the gift.
"that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life"
But faith and repentance are gifts from him, too!
1KI 8:58 May he turn our hearts to him...
AC 5:31 God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might give repentance and forgiveness of sins to Israel.
AC 13:48 ... and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.
AC 18:27 ... those who by grace had believed.
2TI 2:25 ... in the hope that God will grant them repentance ...
So "believes in him" is not the end of the chain, God is at work behind our belief, and our repentance:
Hebrews 12:2 Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith...
quote:
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
If God is willing, than NONE will perish, ALL will come to repentance, right? But MANY perish and NOT ALL come to repentance, because there's freedom in the kingdom of God.
But all God's desires will be fulfilled!
PS 135:6 All that pleases the Lord, he has done, in the heavens and on the earth, in the seas and all their depths.
ISA 46:10 "I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please."
DA 4:35 He does as he pleases with the powers of heaven and the peoples of the earth.
quote:
Of course, there's also the problem that Satan is the ruler of this world.
He's the prince. But not the king!
Psalm 47:2 How awesome is the Lord Most High, the great King over all the earth!
quote:
God's election was between two nations, not two individuals.
First covenant, God chooses Abraham (and by default those who would be born into Abraham, some opt out, like Aachan, some opt in, like Rahab)
Second covenant, God chooses Jesus (and by default those who will be spiritually reborn into Jesus)
The election is GROUPS, not individuals.
How is this choosing nations, in the first covenant though? If some opt out, and some opt in?
And how is the second covenant the choice of a nation, or a group at all? Except in the sense of choosing all who will believe. But that's individual election!
Though I believe God makes that choice of who will believe:
JN 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him...
JN 6:65 ... no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him.
JN 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me...
Blessings,
Lee
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"Even now we seem to have dim glimpses into regions
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 7/21/2004 4:54 PM (GMT -6) | | There is no problem with Satan being the prince of this age. According to Luke 4:6 satan told Jesus that the authority over the kingdoms of the world was given to him. Who gave him this authority? Of course, God! Satan can only do what God allows him to do, as in the case of Job. The problem is the idea that Satan came into the picture back in Genesis and messed up God's creation, and God has been fighting him ever since in order to redeem man. All is of God (Rom. 11:36, 1 Cor. 8:6, 2 Cor. 5:18, Eph. 1:11, and especially check out Isaiah 45:7). Sin entering into the world was all a part of God's plan for creation. In order to know God's grace and kindness, we have to have a knowledge of evil to compare. God uses the greatest evil deed in the world's history (The death of Christ on the cross) to reconcile to world to Himself (2 Cor. 5:19). As far as the how many people will actually be saved (since God wills all mankind to be saved-1 Timothy 2:4)is another issue. According to 1 Corinthians 15:22 since ALL have died in Adam, ALL will be made alive in Christ. I believe this to be true. Those whom God gives faith during this evil age (vessels of mercy) will be resurrected or raptured to be with Christ at His appearing. A thousand years later the rest of the dead will rise and stand before the white throne (Rev. 20). After they are judged according to acts, they will be cast into the lake of fire which is the second death (Rev. 20:15). It is here that they will be in the state of death until the consummation of the eons, when they will be made alive in Christ (1 Cor. 15:24) and it is at this time that all will be subjected to the Son, and then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to God, the Father, so that God will be ALL IN ALL (1 Cor. 15:22-28). I see no lack in the plan of God for all mankind. Jesus is the lamb of God which takes away the sin of the world (John 1:29). God is the savior of all mankind (1 Timothy 4:10). Amen!
His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. | | Back to Top | | |
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God_Is_Truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2003
Total Posts : 33
| Posted 7/21/2004 7:03 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
There is no problem with Satan being the prince of this age. According to Luke 4:6 satan told Jesus that the authority over the kingdoms of the world was given to him. Who gave him this authority? Of course, God! Satan
no, the authority was first given to us (remember that whole dominion thing?), and we forfeited it to him when we fell. granted, it is God who allows him to still have the authority, but he didn't really hand it over to him on a silver platter either. | | Back to Top | | |
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