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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 7/19/2004 4:55 PM (GMT -6) |   | Let's look at Ezekial's prophecy against Tyre.
The main part of Tyre was on an island, with subsidiary town on the mainland:
Alexander's causeway was built by Alexander the Great, many years after this particular prophecy.
Ezekial calls the subsidiary town, daughters on the mainland
Ezekiel 26
Judgment on Tyre
1 Now in the eleventh year, on the first of the month, the word of the LORD came to me saying,
2 "Son of man, because Tyre has said concerning Jerusalem, 'Aha, the gateway of the peoples is broken; it has opened to me. I shall be filled, now that she is laid waste,'
3 therefore thus says the Lord GOD, 'Behold, I am against you, O Tyre, and I will bring up many nations against you, as the sea brings up its waves.
4 'They will destroy the walls of Tyre and break down her towers; and I will scrape her debris from her and make her a bare rock.
5 'She will be a place for the spreading of nets in the midst of the sea, for I have spoken,' declares the Lord GOD, 'and she will become spoil for the nations.
6 'Also her daughters who are on the mainland will be slain by the sword, and they will know that I am the LORD.'"
7 For thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I will bring upon Tyre from the north Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, king of kings, with horses, chariots, cavalry and a great army.
8 "He will slay your daughters on the mainland with the sword; and he will make siege walls against you, cast up a ramp against you and raise up a large shield against you.
9 "The blow of his battering rams he will direct against your walls, and with his axes he will break down your towers.
10 "Because of the multitude of his horses, the dust raised by them will cover you; your walls will shake at the noise of cavalry and wagons and chariots when he enters your gates as men enter a city that is breached.
11 "With the hoofs of his horses he will trample all your streets. He will slay your people with the sword; and your strong pillars will come down to the ground.
12 "Also they will make a spoil of your riches and a prey of your merchandise, break down your walls and destroy your pleasant houses, and throw your stones and your timbers and your debris into the water.
13 "So I will silence the sound of your songs, and the sound of your harps will be heard no more.
14 "I will make you a bare rock; you will be a place for the spreading of nets. You will be built no more, for I the LORD have spoken," declares the Lord GOD.
15 Thus says the Lord GOD to Tyre, "Shall not the coastlands shake at the sound of your fall when the wounded groan, when the slaughter occurs in your midst?
16 "Then all the princes of the sea will go down from their thrones, remove their robes and strip off their embroidered garments. They will clothe themselves with trembling; they will sit on the ground, tremble every moment and be appalled at you.
17 "They will take up a lamentation over you and say to you,
'How you have perished, O inhabited one,
From the seas, O renowned city,
Which was mighty on the sea,
She and her inhabitants,
Who imposed her terror
On all her inhabitants!
18 'Now the coastlands will trembleOn the day of your fall;
Yes, the coastlands which are by the sea
Will be terrified at your passing.'"
19 For thus says the Lord GOD, "When I make you a desolate city, like the cities which are not inhabited, when I bring up the deep over you and the great waters cover you,
20 then I will bring you down with those who go down to the pit, to the people of old, and I will make you dwell in the lower parts of the earth, like the ancient waste places, with those who go down to the pit, so that you will not be inhabited; but I will set glory in the land of the living.
21 "I will bring terrors on you and you will be no more; though you will be sought, you will never be found again," declares the Lord GOD.
1. destroy Tyre, scrape it to a bare rock
2. the king of Babylon will do this
3. the king of Babylon's men will enter the city through the breached walls
4. Babylon will make Tyre a bare rock
5. Tyre will not be inhabited after that
Basically, through the king of Babylon, Tyre will be laid waste, that's the prophecy.
Yet from historical records (including Josephus Flavius), Nebuchnezzar took the mainland part of the city BUT NOT the island part of the city, the main part of Tyre.
Babylon had no ships. They laid seige to Tyre for 13 years and NEVER TOOK THE CITY. They eventually abandoned the seige (573/572) and invaded Egypt instead.
Tyre eventually passed in Babylon vassalage as a result of a negotiated settlement, thrived as a commercial center and WAS NOT DESTROYED BY Nebuchadnezzar or Babylon.
Prophecy unfulfilled
Ezekial gave another prophecy regarding Tyre:
Ezekial 29:
18 "Son of man, Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon made his army labor hard against Tyre; every head was made bald and every shoulder was rubbed bare. But he and his army had no wages from Tyre for the labor that he had performed against it."
19 Therefore thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I will give the land of Egypt to Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon. And he will carry off her wealth and capture her spoil and seize her plunder; and it will be wages for his army.
20 "I have given him the land of Egypt for his labor which he performed, because they acted for Me," declares the Lord GOD.
21 "On that day I will make a horn sprout for the house of Israel, and I will open your mouth in their midst. Then they will know that I am the LORD."
God recognized that Nebuchnezzar failed at Tyre, unfulfilling the earlier prophecy. God gave them conquest of Egypt instead. Historical records don't exist that show whether this panned out or not, though.
Tyre later was destroyed by Alexander the Great, the Macedonian Greek, who built a causeway to reach the island part of the city.
Prophecy, FINALLY, conditionally fulfilled by someone else (God will eventually get His will done, by backup means if necessary  )
Prophecy is NOT knowlege of a future that hasn't happened yet;
if it was, it would be accurate, deshou neh?
Kudos to Dennis Bratcher for this
http://www.cresourcei.org
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 7/20/2004 5:07 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 7/20/2004 8:42 AM (GMT -6) | | I've swam over that very causway. It's all under water now. And there's a nice coffee shop on the harbor too. Does that prove open theism! 
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 7/20/2004 8:44 AM (GMT -6) | | Chelsea-
Is it "I have swam" or "I have swum"? 
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 7/20/2004 8:46 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by TGB
I've swam over that very causway. It's all under water now. And there's a nice coffee shop on the harbor too. Does that prove open theism!
Bazillions of years ago, God saw you drinking coffee at that coffee shop. Anything LESS would be a scary, insecure world and I'd wet my pants.
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/20/2004 8:46 AM (GMT -6) | | | Maybe that prophesy (forthtelling) was just wrong in some of its details (not entirely "fore-telling"). Doesn't matter. There certainly was a REASON for that message besides giving a plan of what the future would look like. | | Back to Top | | |
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 7/20/2004 8:53 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by PotOnWheel
Maybe that prophesy (forthtelling) was just wrong in some of its details (not entirely "fore-telling"). Doesn't matter. There certainly was a REASON for that message besides giving a plan of what the future would look like.
Of course. God is telling what He's going to do. Not what He "sees" as already accomplished. When Nebuchadnezzar failed, He eventually used Alexander to scrape Tyre away. He will accomplish His will, it just may take the B team to do it.
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 7/20/2004 4:59 PM (GMT -6) | | High Sisters!
You're keeping me up late...
quote:
3 'Behold, I am against you, O Tyre, and I will bring up many nations against you, as the sea brings up its waves.
4 'They will destroy the walls of Tyre and break down her towers; and I will scrape her debris from her and make her a bare rock.
So if two nations were required to do the job, then this prophecy is correct, "many nations" made Tyre a bare rock, Neb started it, and Alex finished the job.
quote:
14 "I will make you a bare rock; you will be a place for the spreading of nets.
God said he would do it, and in verse 4, with "many nations," so I think this prophecy is still afloat as it stands. This is a remarkable prophecy, actually! Tyre will never be rebuilt, and for thousands of years, it hasn't been. That's a lot of choices to predict, since Tyre was a good place for a fortress, and a seaport...
Blessings,
Lee
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 7/21/2004 1:40 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Lee Merrill
High Sisters!
You're keeping me up late...
quote:
3 'Behold, I am against you, O Tyre, and I will bring up many nations against you, as the sea brings up its waves.
4 'They will destroy the walls of Tyre and break down her towers; and I will scrape her debris from her and make her a bare rock.
So if two nations were required to do the job, then this prophecy is correct, "many nations" made Tyre a bare rock, Neb started it, and Alex finished the job.
Nebuchadnezzar and his men fulfilled verse 8 by destroying the daughter city on the coast but failed to fulfill verse 10, by NOT entering the gates of Tyre and destroying the city.
Neither did they trample the streets with the hoofs of their horses or slay the people in Tyre or topple the pillars of Tyre (verse 11)
or plunder the riches of Tyre and break down the walls of Tyre (verse 12) or silence the songs of Tyre (verse 13) or scrape Tyre to the bare rock (verse 14). Nebuchadnezzar is named in the prophecy, no one else.
Tyre flourished as a commercial city for another 250 years.
God is aware of this as Ezekial 29 lays out:
18 "Son of man, Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon made his army labor hard against Tyre; every head was made bald and every shoulder was rubbed bare. But he and his army had no wages from Tyre for the labor that he had performed against it."
19 Therefore thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I will give the land of Egypt to Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon."
Because Nebuchadnezzar failed in Tyre, God sent him against Egypt instead.
Ezekial's prophecy about Nebuchadnezzar and Tyre didn't pan out.
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 7/21/2004 10:55 AM (GMT -6) | | 1. God predicted Nebuchadnezzar would take the riches of Tyre
Ezekial 20:
7 For thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I will bring upon Tyre from the north Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, king of kings, with horses, chariots, cavalry and a great army.
8 "He will slay your daughters on the mainland with the sword; and he will make siege walls against you, cast up a ramp against you and raise up a large shield against you.
9 "The blow of his battering rams he will direct against your walls, and with his axes he will break down your towers.
10 "Because of the multitude of his horses, the dust raised by them will cover you; your walls will shake at the noise of cavalry and wagons and chariots when he enters your gates as men enter a city that is breached.
11 "With the hoofs of his horses he will trample all your streets. He will slay your people with the sword; and your strong pillars will come down to the ground.
12 "Also they will make a spoil of your riches and a prey of your merchandise, break down your walls and destroy your pleasant houses, and throw your stones and your timbers and your debris into the water.
2. Nebuchadnezzar failed to take the spoils of Tyre
From historical records (including Josephus Flavius),
Babylon had no ships. They laid seige to Tyre for 13 years and NEVER TOOK THE CITY. They eventually abandoned the seige (573/572) and invaded Egypt instead.
Tyre flourished for another 250 years as a commercial center.
3. God realized Nebuchadnezzar failed to take the spoils of Tyre, sent him for his spoils to Egypt instead
Ezekial 29:
18 "Son of man, Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon made his army labor hard against Tyre; every head was made bald and every shoulder was rubbed bare. But he and his army had no wages from Tyre for the labor that he had performed against it."
19 Therefore thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I will give the land of Egypt to Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon. And he will carry off her wealth and capture her spoil and seize her plunder; and it will be wages for his army.
20 "I have given him the land of Egypt for his labor which he performed, because they acted for Me," declares the Lord GOD."
This is how scripture presents this prophecy. No explanations needed.
Occam's Razor
"one should not increase, beyond what is necessary, the number of entities required to explain anything"
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Starkman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 7/21/2004 1:04 PM (GMT -6) | | It's SWUM, you bumbling sad exuse for a writer. Sheesh, do we have to tell you EVERYTHING, Tom? I give up. I just give up! (Swum: past particple of Swim. See, I know these things, because I have Web sites marked to cover my rear end in case of just this kind of issue!) Is it swam or swum, he askes. What a Open Theist you are!
(We won't talk about how much Tom's writing has influenced my writing. The fool will end up with an ego that'll be too big to swum over the the causeway!)
Love ya, bro!
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 7/21/2004 3:29 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi Sisters,
quote:
Lee: So if two nations were required to do the job, then this prophecy is correct, "many nations" made Tyre a bare rock, Neb started it, and Alex finished the job.
Nebuchadnezzar and his men fulfilled verse 8 by destroying the daughter city on the coast but failed to fulfill verse 10, by NOT entering the gates of Tyre and destroying the city.
Neither did they trample the streets with the hoofs of their horses or slay the people in Tyre or topple the pillars of Tyre (verse 11)
or plunder the riches of Tyre and break down the walls of Tyre (verse 12) or silence the songs of Tyre (verse 13) or scrape Tyre to the bare rock (verse 14). Nebuchadnezzar is named in the prophecy, no one else.
Well, Babylon is not "many nations." Thus we must have other nations involved in carrying out this prophecy, I think that is plain here.
quote:
18 "Son of man, Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon made his army labor hard against Tyre; every head was made bald and every shoulder was rubbed bare. But he and his army had no wages from Tyre for the labor that he had performed against it."
19 Therefore thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I will give the land of Egypt to Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon."
Because Nebuchadnezzar failed in Tyre, God sent him against Egypt instead.
No, God doesn't say he failed to accomplish God's purposes. Neb didn't get what he wanted, but that's different!
Blessings,
Lee
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 7/22/2004 1:59 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Lee Merrill
Well, Babylon is not "many nations."
Babylon was composed of many city-states and regions, Shumer, Akkad, Ur, Larsam, Nippur, Shirpurla, Kish, Babylon, Uruk, etc. and many peoples.
http://ragz-international.com/babylonia.htm
God specifically says it would be Nebuchadnezzar who would knock down the walls of Tyre and carry off it's riches. It didn't happen. You can't hide that fact. Reply with all the lame replies you want, you can't change facts.
History tells us Nebuchadnezzar failed to take Tyre, God confirms that as well.
I'm sorry you're a priori blueprint theory doesn't fit what scripture and history actually record.
The prophecy didn't happen the way it was stated, showing that the future is neither settled facts, nor pre-determined.
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Sisters of Cain
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Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 7/24/2004 9:25 AM (GMT -6) | | Ezekial 26:7 For thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I will bring upon Tyre from the north Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, king of kings, with horses, chariots, cavalry and a great army.
Nebuchadnezzar, king of kings
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