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Mark C.
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 15
| Posted 8/7/2004 10:36 AM (GMT -6) |   | Scott has very well said, and many of us have very deeply felt,
"...but to assuage our own doubts that germinate when those reasonable criticisms are recognized." And an excellent point when he states,"Perhaps I'm the only one, but in any case, from the rest of my fellow Christians, I'd ask the charity to acknowledge myself and those like me as fellow siblings in Christ, and not critical skeptics (though to passing eyes we may sometimes seem like the latter), and bear with us."
Scott, if my Father has chosen you and me to know His grace in Christ Jesus, we must and do accept you as a Brother in Christ! I most deeply know by experience the difficulties of things in Scripture, trying to reconcile what is said to what is happening, and struggling inward to make sense of it all in terrible, terrible strugglings for nummerous years while experienceing Job-like "terrors". Thank God, we have seen the end of Job! I have found HIM faithful. I appreciate your effort to understand and honesty. We do not belittle your struggles to discover the truth, but do encourage you.
Mark | | Back to Top | | |
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 8/7/2004 11:03 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by scott_jorgenson
PS. By the way, I would be interested in your explanation of why - if the future is open and yet prophecy is meant to be taken literally - why then prophecy even exists. Because if prophecy is meant to be taken literally, and yet the future is open, it would seem that prophecy is meant to fail, in your view. What is the purpose of prophecy then?
I'm pointing out the failure of the "crystal ball/literal" view of prophecy.
I'm pointing out what prophecy isn't. It isn't God looking into the future and seeing what's going to happen and then telling us. Else, He'd be 100% literally accurate.
I'm pointing out what prophecy is. It's God telling what He's going to accomplish, but He often has to change courses due to the fact He's interacting with human beings.
Example, He told Israel, while in Egypt, He would bring them into the promised land. That's prophectic. Then in the desert, He told Israel He would NOT bring them into the promised land. Why did He change His prophecy? Because of their disobedience.
Why did Jonah's prophecy "fail"? Because they repented and God relented.
All this shows that the future has NOT happened yet, CANNOT be seen and is OPEN.
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 8/8/2004 4:07 PM (GMT -6) | | Lee:(ESL)But then are the promises open, too?
Yes.
Ezekial 20:
5 and say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "On the day when I chose Israel and swore to the descendants of the house of Jacob and made Myself known to them in the land of Egypt, when I swore to them, saying, I am the LORD your God,
6 on that day I swore to them, to bring them out from the land of Egypt into a land that I had selected for them, flowing with milk and honey, which is the glory of all lands.
2,999,998 of them weren't brought into the promised land.
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scott_jorgenson
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 271
| Posted 8/8/2004 4:08 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Lee Merrill
Hi everyone,
I appreciate the thoughts on this, thanks Scott and everyone. I would say that a lot is at stake here, if prophecies are not sure and certain and don't have an exact meaning, then what about God's promises that concern us? Doesn't that undo them, too?
Philippians 4:19 And my God will meet all your needs according to his glorious riches in Christ Jesus.
Isn't this plain and true and certain? Or does it have a vague symbolic meaning, or maybe it won't turn out that way?
Blessings,
Lee
I don't see the problem. A proclamation of doom, surrounded in vivid and illustrative detail, generally means doom, according to the non-literal approach I've been suggesting. It does not mean peace and prosperity. Conversely a promise that God will take care of us generally means that; it does not mean that "maybe it won't turn out that way". By eschewing exactingly literal fulfillment, we do not also subvert the gist.
This concern strikes me as similar to those who insist on exactingly literal inerrancy in scripture, because (for example) if you can't trust that even a single verse that seems to be reporting some historical detail, actually reports that detail exactly as it actually happened in history, then you've got to ditch the whole gospel. I would ask such people: why do you bother reading anything then? Why are you reading me write now? I'm not inerrant, nor is anything else you've ever read that human hands have touched, whether its your school math textbook or that copy of The Purpose-Driven Life you have. By your rationale, none of it can be trusted and you might as well be reading Bozo the Clown. I think the way that excessively-concerned inerrantists and literalists view the necessity of their position, is undermined by the way they (and everyone else) very reasonably goes about their daily lives.
Humbly,
Scott
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scott_jorgenson
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 271
| Posted 8/8/2004 4:21 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sisters of Cain
I'm pointing out the failure of the "crystal ball/literal" view of prophecy.
I'm pointing out what prophecy isn't. It isn't God looking into the future and seeing what's going to happen and then telling us. Else, He'd be 100% literally accurate.
I'm pointing out what prophecy is. It's God telling what He's going to accomplish, but He often has to change courses due to the fact He's interacting with human beings...
Interesting and I can't say I disagree. I do think the Evangelical Theological Society would have a problem with your position, since it was reportedly over the issue of the nature of fulfillment of every biblical prophecy that John Sanders and Clark Pinnock were recently nearly ejected :-) But that doesn't mean I have a problem with your view at all. I just don't think its the only possible explanation - I think those with a traditional Calvinist or Arminian view of sovereignty and foreknowledge can defend a pretty good understanding of prophecy within their own framework, using a scheme such as what I've presented here. I'm pleased to see a proponent of the open view respond with a rather different interpretation and explanation of the same phenomenon of not-completely-literally-fulfilled prophecy.
Thanks and best regards,
Scott
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scott_jorgenson
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 271
| Posted 8/8/2004 4:23 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Mark C.
Scott, if my Father has chosen you and me to know His grace in Christ Jesus, we must and do accept you as a Brother in Christ! I most deeply know by experience the difficulties of things in Scripture, trying to reconcile what is said to what is happening, and struggling inward to make sense of it all in terrible, terrible strugglings for nummerous years while experienceing Job-like "terrors". Thank God, we have seen the end of Job! I have found HIM faithful. I appreciate your effort to understand and honesty. We do not belittle your struggles to discover the truth, but do encourage you.
Very kind and supportive words, and much appreciated. Thanks and best regards,
Scott
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barryatk
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 101
| Posted 8/9/2004 10:03 AM (GMT -6) | | [quote]Originally posted by scott_jorgenson
[I am not here to knock anyone's view on biblical prophecy or inerrancy in general. I am here to acknowledge that there are those among us Christians, though, who have struggled with inerrancy and prophecy and other such things in the light of modern reason, and for whom it simply does not always work to say either (a) "there are no such problems; the text passes critical muster splendidly" (ala well-known apologetic authors Josh McDowell and Lee Stroebel and so forth), or (b) "although we can't explain the problems, I'm sure it all pans out somehow". Perhaps it is our weakness, but we want to be able to "give reason for the hope we have" that does not deny or equivocate over any reasonable criticism given in good conscience. We want this - need this - not only to provide an answer to others, but to assuage our own doubts that germinate when those reasonable criticisms are recognized.
Barry says:
I've not intended to be offensive,Scott. I join you in the desire to have reason for our hope. I do think we (ME SURELY) have wasted time with many who acted as though they wanted a reason for our hope, when what they really wanted was a platform to spout there stuff. I have family who ask a question, don't listen at all, then just give their stuff... at least it's free... but I'm spending time listening.
I definitely learn from reading these posts...and it's nice that no one knows if I've just skipped what they had to say cause maybe it seemed to me superfluos(?) or redundant. I admire your heart and
scholarliness as I see it and look forward to really trying to understand where you are.
The main thing I guess, for me, is to get agreement in this community, if possible...Do we all agree that scripture is the final authority? Do we believe the apostles' creed? DO we allow that many denominations and Christ-based religions are to be respected?
I'm also always very interested to learn of the authors that each of us study and get our views from. To me, knowing you've read MacDowell,and other apologists means I don't need to go over some basic stuff, or should we?
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 8/9/2004 4:44 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi everyone,
quote:
Lee: But then are the promises open, too?
SOC: Yes.
Ezekial 20:6 on that day I swore to them, to bring them out from the land of Egypt into a land that I had selected for them, flowing with milk and honey, which is the glory of all lands.
2,999,998 of them weren't brought into the promised land.
We did discuss this, already. But I didn't think you would step up to the promises being open, though.
Isaiah 43:2 When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; and when you pass through the rivers, they will not sweep over you. When you walk through the fire, you will not be burned; the flames will not set you ablaze.
Now what does this mean, if this is open?
quote:
Philippians 4:19 And my God will meet all your needs according to his glorious riches in Christ Jesus.
Lee: Isn't this plain and true and certain? Or does it have a vague symbolic meaning, or maybe it won't turn out that way?
Scott: a promise that God will take care of us generally means that; it does not mean that "maybe it won't turn out that way". By eschewing exactingly literal fulfillment, we do not also subvert the gist.
But "a day late and a dollar short" is not a promise fulfilled. You can't pay the gist of the rent…
Blessings,
Lee
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