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Sisters of Cain
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Date Joined Mar 2004
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| Posted 7/20/2004 5:03 AM (GMT -6) |   | Jehoiakim, king of Judah
Jeremiah 36:
27 Then the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah after the king had burned the scroll and the words which Baruch had written at the dictation of Jeremiah, saying,
28 "Take again another scroll and write on it all the former words that were on the first scroll which Jehoiakim the king of Judah burned.
29 "And concerning Jehoiakim king of Judah you shall say, 'Thus says the LORD, "You have burned this scroll, saying, 'Why have you written on it that the king of Babylon will certainly come and destroy this land, and will make man and beast to cease from it?'"
30 'Therefore thus says the LORD concerning Jehoiakim king of Judah, "He shall have no one to sit on the throne of David, and his dead body shall be cast out to the heat of the day and the frost of the night.
31 "I will also punish him and his descendants and his servants for their iniquity, and I will bring on them and the inhabitants of Jerusalem and the men of Judah all the calamity that I have declared to them--but they did not listen."'"
32 Then Jeremiah took another scroll and gave it to Baruch the son of Neriah, the scribe, and he wrote on it at the dictation of Jeremiah all the words of the book which Jehoiakim king of Judah had burned in the fire; and many similar words were added to them.
2 Kings 24:
6 So Jehoiakim slept with his fathers, and Jehoiachin his son became king in his place.
8 Jehoiachin was eighteen years old when he became king, and he reigned three months in Jerusalem; and his mother's name was Nehushta the daughter of Elnathan of Jerusalem.
"He shall have no one to sit on the throne", yet "Jehoiachin his son became king in his place"
Not perfectly accurate, is it? Possibly due to the future not having happened yet.
The world is dynamic systems, not statis.
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Sisters of Cain
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| Posted 7/20/2004 6:00 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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Lee Merrill
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Total Posts : 723
| Posted 7/20/2004 5:09 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi Sisters,
More work! I really should get paid for all this effort...
quote:
Jeremiah 36:30 'Therefore thus says the Lord concerning Jehoiakim king of Judah, "He shall have no one to sit on the throne of David..."...
2 Kings 24:6 So Jehoiakim slept with his fathers, and Jehoiachin his son became king in his place.
"He shall have no one to sit on the throne", yet "Jehoiachin his son became king in his place"
I looked this question up in my "Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties," and here is what they say:
"The point of this sentence of doom on Jehoiakim (who had just sliced up Jeremiah's written prophecies and cast them into the fire) was that he would have no dynasty to succeed him. In fulfillment of this condemnation, it turned out that in 597 B.C., when Jehoiakim died, his son Jehoiachin took over Jerusalem for a mere three months, before it fell to the besieging armies of Nebuchadnezzar. Probably there was no official coronation ceremony during that period of unrest as the siege continued. At any rate, that son was not permitted to remain on the throne of Judah from that time on; rather, it was Zedekiah, his uncle, who was installed as a vassal king under the Chaldean Empire, and Jehoiachin was dragged off to captivity in Babylon, from which he never returned."
"It should be noted that when the Hebrew verb yasab ("sit enthroned") is used of a king, it implies a certain degree of permanence rather than so short a time as ninety days. As Jehoiakim's son, Jehoiachin was not permitted to sit on the throne and carry on the career of the Davidic dynasty. On the contrary, he was removed; and no son or descendant of his was ever permitted to reign as king thereafter on the throne of David. Zerubbabel may have been descended from Jehoiachin through Shealtiel (see Matt. 1:12), and he may have exercised a leadership role after the restoration of captive Judah from Babylon; but he never achieved the status of king. (The later Jewish kings of the second and first centuries B.C., the Hasmoneans, were of the tribe of Levi and had no connection whatever with Jehoiakim.)"
That wasn't so much work! I should check my "Difficulty Book" more often, and I recommend such books to you all, too...
Blessings,
Lee
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Sisters of Cain
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| Posted 7/21/2004 2:00 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Lee Merrill
quote:
Jeremiah 36:30 'Therefore thus says the Lord concerning Jehoiakim king of Judah, "He shall have no one to sit on the throne of David..."...
2 Kings 24:6 So Jehoiakim slept with his fathers, and Jehoiachin his son became king in his place.
"He shall have no one to sit on the throne", yet "Jehoiachin his son became king in his place"
If Jeremiah considered Jehoiachin as king, then that should overrule what the authors of "Bible Difficulties For Our Blueprint Theology" say. Jeremiah was a little closer to the event, don't you think? 
Jeremiah's words: "Jehoiachin his son became king in his place" which contradicts the prophecy: "thus says the Lord concerning Jehoiakim king of Judah, 'He shall have no one to sit on the throne of David...'"
Occam's Razor
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Sisters of Cain
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| Posted 7/22/2004 2:05 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Lee Merrill
Hi Sisters,
quote:
"He shall have no one to sit on the throne", yet "Jehoiachin his son became king in his place"
If Jeremiah considered Jehoiachin as king, then that should overrule what the authors of "Bible Difficulties For Our Blueprint Theology" say.
If God removed him, and replaced him, then I think at that point he had no one to sit on the throne. Thus God fulfilled the prophecy in that way...
Exactly. Not quite accurate prophecy, showing the future is NOT settled facts.
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funkytown
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| Posted 7/22/2004 3:01 AM (GMT -6) | | Here are a few more “not quite accurate” prophecies about the last kings of Judah:
* Huldah prophesied that King Josiah would “be gathered to his grave in peace” (2 Kings 22:20), but he was actually killed on the battlefield at Megiddo by his enemy, Pharaoh Neco (2 Kings 23:20).
* Jeremiah prophesied that king Jehoiakim would “be buried like an ass” (Jer. 22:19), but in the end, “Jehoiakim slept with his ancestors” (2 Kings 24:6).
* Regarding King Jehoiachin, Jeremiah prophesied: “Record this man as childless…for none of his offspring shall succeed in sitting on the throne of David, and ruling again in Judah” (Jer. 22:30). But 7 sons of Jehoiachin are listed in 1 Chron. 3:17–18. His son Sheshbazzar became the first governor of Judah during the Persian period (e.g. Ezra 5:14), and is referred to by the title “the prince of Judah” in Ezra 1:8. He was succeeded in this office by Zerubbabel, the son of Jehoiachin’s son Shealtiel (e.g. Ezra 3:2; Hag. 1:1; 1 Chron. 3:19 in the LXX).
What do these not-quite-accurate fulfillments say about the nature of the future? Passages like these should cause us to reconsider our assumptions about the nature and purpose of prophecy (i.e. “forthtelling” vs. “foretelling”), and its relationship to history.
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Sisters of Cain
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| Posted 7/22/2004 3:08 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by funkytown
Here are a few more “not quite accurate” prophecies about the last kings of Judah:
* Huldah prophesied that King Josiah would “be gathered to his grave in peace” (2 Kings 22:20), but he was actually killed on the battlefield at Megiddo by his enemy, Pharaoh Neco (2 Kings 23:20).
* Jeremiah prophesied that king Jehoiakim would “be buried like an ass” (Jer. 22:19), but in the end, “Jehoiakim slept with his ancestors” (2 Kings 24:6).
* Regarding King Jehoiachin, Jeremiah prophesied: “Record this man as childless…for none of his offspring shall succeed in sitting on the throne of David, and ruling again in Judah” (Jer. 22:30). But 7 sons of Jehoiachin are listed in 1 Chron. 3:17–18. His son Sheshbazzar became the first governor of Judah during the Persian period (e.g. Ezra 5:14), and is referred to by the title “the prince of Judah” in Ezra 1:8. He was succeeded in this office by Zerubbabel, the son of Jehoiachin’s son Shealtiel (e.g. Ezra 3:2; Hag. 1:1; 1 Chron. 3:19 in the LXX).
What do these not-quite-accurate fulfillments say about the nature of the future? Passages like these should cause us to reconsider our assumptions about the nature and purpose of prophecy (i.e. “forthtelling” vs. “foretelling”), and its relationship to history.
Peace.
Thanks, funkytown. Very interesting....
"Why don't you take me to.... funkytown" -- Lipps, Inc
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Lee Merrill
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| Posted 7/22/2004 4:01 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi everyone,
quote:
funkytown: Here are a few more “not quite accurate” prophecies about the last kings of Judah:
* Huldah prophesied that King Josiah would “be gathered to his grave in peace” (2 Kings 22:20), but he was actually killed on the battlefield at Megiddo by his enemy, Pharaoh Neco (2 Kings 23:20).
* Jeremiah prophesied that king Jehoiakim would “be buried like an ass” (Jer. 22:19), but in the end, “Jehoiakim slept with his ancestors” (2 Kings 24:6).
* Regarding King Jehoiachin, Jeremiah prophesied: “Record this man as childless…for none of his offspring shall succeed in sitting on the throne of David, and ruling again in Judah” (Jer. 22:30). But 7 sons of Jehoiachin are listed in 1 Chron. 3:17–18. His son Sheshbazzar became the first governor of Judah during the Persian period (e.g. Ezra 5:14), and is referred to by the title “the prince of Judah” in Ezra 1:8. He was succeeded in this office by Zerubbabel, the son of Jehoiachin’s son Shealtiel (e.g. Ezra 3:2; Hag. 1:1; 1 Chron. 3:19 in the LXX).
2 Chronicles 35:24 So they took him out of his chariot, put him in the other chariot he had and brought him to Jerusalem, where he died.
So he didn't die in battle, he died in peace, though he was wounded in battle.
As far as 2 Kings 24:6 is concerned, Johoiakim sleeping with his ancestors doesn't tell us how he was buried. Jer. 22:19 does...
And as far as succession after Jehoiachin, Shealtiel is the son of Neri in Luke, and the son of Jeconiah in Matthew. Thus you must work out this difficulty, to make your point. Also, being a governor or being a prince is not being a king! No it's not...
quote:
Passages like these should cause us to reconsider our assumptions about the nature and purpose of prophecy (i.e. “forthtelling” vs. “foretelling”), and its relationship to history.
That is not evidence of divinity, though! I can do that, Sisters does that from time to time, to show me she can do that, too. I agree! But God is claiming more, just saying what you intend will not be proof of divinity at all, but God claims his prophecies prove just that:
Isaiah 46:9-10 Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me. I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.
"My purpose will stand," this is not just stating his intention...
Blessings,
Lee
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Sisters of Cain
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| Posted 7/24/2004 9:40 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Lee Merrill
Isaiah 46:9-10 Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me. I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.
Isaiah 46:
10 Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things which have not been done,
Saying, 'My purpose will be established,
And I will accomplish all My good pleasure'"
God is declaring what He's going to do.
He uses future tense.
He will accomplish all His good pleasure.
He doesn't say He will accomplish EVERYTHING that can be accomplished.
He doesn't say He will accomplish OUR PLEASURE.
The things God says He's going to do in scripture is a pretty small list compared to the zillions of decisions humans make.
Nothing in this verse states God knows ALL the future especially the future choices of free-moral agents.
Referees declare the beginning and the end of a game yet don't have total control of everything that happens in the game.
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Sisters of Cain
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| Posted 7/24/2004 9:48 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Lee Merrill
Hi everyone,
[quote]funkytown: Here are a few more “not quite accurate” prophecies about the last kings of Judah:
* Huldah prophesied that King Josiah would “be gathered to his grave in peace” (2 Kings 22:20), but he was actually killed on the battlefield at Megiddo by his enemy, Pharaoh Neco (2 Kings 23:20).
* Jeremiah prophesied that king Jehoiakim would “be buried like an ass” (Jer. 22:19), but in the end, “Jehoiakim slept with his ancestors” (2 Kings 24:6).
2 Chronicles 35:24 So they took him out of his chariot, put him in the other chariot he had and brought him to Jerusalem, where he died.
So he didn't die in battle, he died in peace, though he was wounded in battle.
2 Kings 23:
29 In his days Pharaoh Neco king of Egypt went up to the king of Assyria to the river Euphrates. And King Josiah went to meet him, and when Pharaoh Neco saw him he killed him at Megiddo.
30 His servants drove his body in a chariot from Megiddo, and brought him to Jerusalem and buried him in his own tomb.
1. Josiah was killed at Megiddo in battle (not in peace as the prophecy said)
2. His body was taken to Jerusalem, where he was buried.
2 Chronicles 35:
23 The archers shot King Josiah, and the king said to his servants, "Take me away, for I am badly wounded."
24 So his servants took him out of the chariot and carried him in the second chariot which he had, and brought him to Jerusalem where he died and was buried in the tombs of his fathers.
1. He was shot in battle (not in peace as the prophecy said)
2. He was driven to Jerusalem where in died of his battle wounds.
Either way, he died due of wounds suffered in battle, not a peaceable way to die. 
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Bobber
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| Posted 7/24/2004 1:49 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
'Therefore thus says the LORD concerning Jehoiakim king of Judah, "He shall have no one to sit on the throne of David, and his dead body shall be cast out to the heat of the day and the frost of the night.
31 "I will also punish him and his descendants and his servants for their iniquity, and I will bring on them and the inhabitants of Jerusalem and the men of Judah all the calamity that I have declared to them--but they did not listen."'"
32 Then Jeremiah took another scroll and gave it to Baruch the son of Neriah, the scribe, and he wrote on it at the dictation of Jeremiah all the words of the book which Jehoiakim king of Judah had burned in the fire; and many similar words were added to them.
2 Kings 24:
6 So Jehoiakim slept with his fathers, and Jehoiachin his son became king in his place.
8 Jehoiachin was eighteen years old when he became king, and he reigned three months in Jerusalem; and his mother's name was Nehushta the daughter of Elnathan of Jerusalem.
"He shall have no one to sit on the throne", yet "Jehoiachin his son became king in his place"
Not perfectly accurate, is it? Possibly due to the future not having happened yet.
Not at all Sis and Im not an expert at answering what are seemingly contraditions but I think this one is clear. One has to understand what it means that one [one of his offspring] wouldn't rule. It doesn't mean one of his sons wouldn't be put in the place, but as far as God is concerned is blessing is not unpon the reign. In real terms he didn't really rule, not in real terms. You'll see in the text that it says his reign lasted only three month. Not one year, not even six month but only twelve weeks. I would hardly call that a reign. Up in Canada here we had once a national leader by the name of Kim Campbell. Well she was put in office as Prime Minister as her party leader stepped down. They had an election imediately and the opposition I recall saying,"Well she has a summer job but that's about it"
And she did loose. She was the Prime Minister for if I recall about two to three month. So in real terms she never really did reign, it was really like someone minding the store until the real boss came in. Can't you agree it truly could be said she wasn't Prime Minister? And the same with this Jehoiachin. Yes he was leader, but for how long? Not one year. Not even half a year...but only three month. The Babylonians actually threw him in prison. So in real terms the prophecy did come true. God did not bless Jehoiachin's son with the throne of leadership, just like it rightly could be said the Canadian Prime Minister I spoke about never really did reign as Prime Minister...not in real terms...so the prophecy God gave did come true. We just have to understand the way the Bible was written. 
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Sisters of Cain
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| Posted 7/24/2004 3:17 PM (GMT -6) | | bobbyer:
quote:
You'll see in the text that it says his reign lasted only three month.
You agree Jehoiakim did have someone sit on the throne, contrary to the prophecy.
Jeremiah 36:
30 Therefore thus says the LORD concerning Jehoiakim king of Judah, "He shall have no one to sit on the throne of David, and his dead body shall be cast out to the heat of the day and the frost of the night."
But he did have someone sit on the throne. (He was thrown in prison after he sat on the throne for three months). Which makes the prophecy not quite accurate. The future is undetermined until we live in it.
"Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown!"
If the future existed of knowable facts, I'd expect God's prophecies to be a little more accurate, deshou neh?
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Bobber
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| Posted 7/25/2004 3:56 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Jeremiah 36:
30 Therefore thus says the LORD concerning Jehoiakim king of Judah, "He shall have no one to sit on the throne of David, and his dead body shall be cast out to the heat of the day and the frost of the night."
But he did have someone sit on the throne. (He was thrown in prison after he sat on the throne for three months). Which makes the prophecy not quite accurate. The future is undetermined until we live in it.
I know but like I stated it was not really a true reign and I would submit that's what God meant. We even would say the same thing today and we do say it.
quote:
"Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown!"
If the future existed of knowable facts, I'd expect God's prophecies to be a little more accurate, deshou neh?
And are you not forgetting exactly what God sent Jonah down to Nineveh to do? To warn them to get them to repent. Why? So that judgement would not have to be carried out. It was conditional Sis, but in no way shape or form can you even claim this is the same as all prophecy....In fact i don't even think you can call the Nineveh warning a prophecy....it was a warning to repent and if they refused to do it here's what God would do...in 40 days he would bring destruction
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Bobber
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| Posted 7/25/2004 8:48 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Sisters, it's pointless. Dying from battle wounds is peaceful? A reign isn't a really a reign unless it lasts, what, four months? Give it up. Your points aren't being addressed; they're being swept under the rug. You'll never convince those who have already made up their mind. All you can do is learn from the experience, and remember not to have your mind made up so firmly that you wont be able to listen. He who has ears, let him hear.
Well I think your statements could be said vice versa as well. Can one die from a battle wound in peace? Most certainly. Haven’t you ever heard the statement that a dying one makes peace with his God? Why do we have a minister pray for a dying one if not for this reason? And that’s even what they call it…making peace with the Creator. And no I think it could absolutely be argued that the kings son didn’t really have a reign, Like I said if that occurred today we wouldn’t say the man had a reign.
If a US President stepped down and his replacement had to immediately have an election and lost you could rightly say the man really didn’t rule. Three month or twelve weeks is not a reign so the prophecy was right. I think what we really need to do is understand how the Bible was written and not fall for the line that certain things are contractions, but understood how it was understood by the people of the day. One example is that the Bible states that a decree went out when right before Jesus was born the whole world should be taxed. Well the whole world wasn’t taxed. The Orientals weren’t taxed by Rome and neither were the American Indians or whoever else. It was speaking of the Roman Empire World. So we have to understand sometimes exactly how the people even of that day knew it should be understood. No offence but I think that's called making sure that we rightly divide the word of truth.
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Lee Merrill
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| Posted 7/25/2004 10:15 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi everyone,
quote:
Dying from battle wounds is peaceful?
I agree with Bobber here, you can die in peace (the war was over, by the way), even if someone shot you with an arrow. The prophecy was about the coming judgment, which Josiah never saw, that was the emphasis in the prophecy, as well.
quote:
A reign isn't a really a reign unless it lasts, what, four months?
Well, the prophecy was that he would not have someone to reign, and removal of his son fulfills that prophecy, I think. You have to qualify it to get something like this "He will never, ever have any descendant sit on the throne, even for a moment."
How is it that removing his descendant, and having no replacement from his descendants, cannot be viewed as fulfillment of this prophecy?
Blessings,
Lee
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Sisters of Cain
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| Posted 7/26/2004 2:17 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sahid
Sisters, it's pointless. Dying from battle wounds is peaceful? A reign isn't a really a reign unless it lasts, what, four months? Give it up. Your points aren't being addressed; they're being swept under the rug. You'll never convince those who have already made up their mind. All you can do is learn from the experience, and remember not to have your mind made up so firmly that you wont be able to listen. He who has ears, let him hear.
Jeremiah said:
1. Jehoiachin, his son, became king in his place.
2. Jehoiachin reigned three months in Jerusalem.
They're not arguing with me, they're arguing with Jeremiah.
Most people would consider being killed in battle as not "peaceful".
If being killed in battle is "peaceful", how would you describe dying at home of natural causes?
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Sisters of Cain
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| Posted 7/26/2004 2:25 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Lee Merrill
How is it that removing his descendant, and having no replacement from his descendants, cannot be viewed as fulfillment of this prophecy?
Jeremiah said he had a replacement, for a while.
The prophecy said he would have NO replacement.
This shows that the prophecy wasn't 100% accurate, proof that the future is NOT already accomplished and that God just "knows" it.
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Lee Merrill
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| Posted 7/26/2004 4:07 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi SOC,
quote:
Most people would consider being killed in battle as not "peaceful".
If being killed in battle is "peaceful", how would you describe dying at home of natural causes?
That's peaceful, too, if the heart is at peace, with no enemies at the gate. He died with his friends, and they mourned for him. Is no illness worse than a sword wound?
quote:
Lee: How is it that removing his descendant, and having no replacement from his descendants, cannot be viewed as fulfillment of this prophecy?
SOC: Jeremiah said he had a replacement, for a while.
The prophecy said he would have NO replacement.
No, the prophecy said he would have no one sitting on the throne. It's actually a participle, implying continuity, as well as duration, which makes a difference. You have to read prophecies like a lawyer! Every little word is important.
Blessings,
Lee
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Sisters of Cain
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| Posted 7/28/2004 3:49 AM (GMT -6) | | Lee:
quote:
You have to read prophecies like a lawyer! Every little word is important.
"Yet forty days and Nineveh will be overthrown."
Forty days later, it was still there.
"Nebuchadnezzar, king of kings, will tear down the walls of Tyre and carry off it's riches".
He didn't.
"He will have no one sit on his throne". But someone did sit on the throne, continuously, for the duration of three months.
Yep, read like a lawyer, prophecies failed.
It's because the future is open and God's prophecies are Him telling what He's going to do, NOT what He sees in the future, that the actual fulfillment of prophecies are not 100% accurate.
Sometimes He evens changes and nullifies them.
"Yet forty days and Nineveh will be overthrown."
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Lee Merrill
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| Posted 7/28/2004 5:01 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi SOC,
quote:
"Yet forty days and Nineveh will be overthrown."
Forty days later, it was still there.
"Nebuchadnezzar, king of kings, will tear down the walls of Tyre and carry off it's riches".
He didn't.
"He will have no one sit on his throne". But someone did sit on the throne, continuously, for the duration of three months.
But Nineveh was overthrown, by repentance, and not by destruction. The same word translated "overthrown" in Jonah is used here, and translated "turned," this word can refer to people changing:
Psalm 105:25 He turned their hearts to hate his people...
-----------
Ezekiel 26:8 He will ravage your settlements on the mainland with the sword...
That's Neb.
Ezekiel 26:12 They will plunder your wealth and loot your merchandise...
That's "many nations." So the prophecy is quite accurate. And note (again) that Tyre has never been rebuilt! That's amazing, considering it's a great place for a fort and a seaport.
-----------
And we covered Jehoiakim! To have your descendant removed from the throne, and no other descendant take his place, is having no one sitting on the throne at that point. Remember the participle!
Blessings,
Lee
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Sisters of Cain
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| Posted 7/29/2004 1:53 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
But Nineveh was overthrown
Not within forty days. People know what "overthrown" means, even if you don't.
quote:
That's "many nations."
Nebuchadnezzar is listed as the one to destroy Tyre AND he is described as "king of kings" because he was the king of a federation of many city-states and regions, Shumer, Akkad, Ur, Larsam, Nippur, Shirpurla, Kish, Babylon, Uruk, etc. and many peoples.
http://ragz-international.com/babylonia.htm
Nebuchadnezzar lead the empire of Babylon, composed of many nations, against Tyre.
God specifically says it would be Nebuchadnezzar who would knock down the walls of Tyre and carry off it's riches. It didn't happen. You can't hide that fact.
History tells us Nebuchadnezzar failed to take Tyre, God confirms that as well.
quote:
And we covered Jehoiakim! To have your descendant removed from the throne, and no other descendant take his place
Except Jehoiachin took his place! It doesn't matter if it was three months or three years or three decades, Jehoiachin != "no one"
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 7/29/2004 4:36 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi SOC,
quote:
Lee: But Nineveh was overthrown
SOC: Not within forty days. People know what "overthrown" means, even if you don't.
It was within forty days. They repented, and then Jonah went up on the hill to see what would happen. And I quoted Ps. 105:25! Which uses the same word translated "overthrown," to refer to a change in peoples' hearts. So your quarrel is with the author of this Psalm...
quote:
Lee: That's "many nations."
SOC: Nebuchadnezzar is listed as the one to destroy Tyre AND he is described as "king of kings" because he was the king of a federation of many city-states and regions...
We covered this already! God refers to Babylon as a single nation (Jer. 25:12, etc.), so we should take the sense in which the Bible refers to nations and Babylon, when interpreting this prophecy.
quote:
God specifically says it would be Nebuchadnezzar who would knock down the walls of Tyre and carry off it's riches.
No, that's simply not what the prophecy says. Sorry, but it's not. "He will do that" applies to Neb, "they will do this" applies to "many nations."
quote:
History tells us Nebuchadnezzar failed to take Tyre, God confirms that as well.
He took the mainland city, thus he fulfilled the part of the prophecy that applied to him.
quote:
Lee: And we covered Jehoiakim! To have your descendant removed from the throne, and no other descendant take his place...
SOC: Except Jehoiachin took his place!
No, I meant no one took Jehoiachin's place. Then Jehoiakim had no one sitting on his throne, like the prophecy said...
Blessings,
Lee
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"Even now we seem to have dim glimpses into regions
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 7/30/2004 5:07 AM (GMT -6) | | Lee:It was within forty days. They repented, and then Jonah went up on the hill to see what would happen.
It wasn't overthrown.
Jonah realized God didn't overthrow it like the prophecy said (within forty days):
Jonah 4:
"2 He prayed to the LORD and said, "Please LORD, was not this what I said while I was still in my own country? Therefore in order to forestall this I fled to Tarshish, for I knew that You are a gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, and one who relents concerning calamity."
God realized He didn't overthrow the city like the prophecy said (within forty days):
Jonah 4:
11 "Should I not have compassion on Nineveh, the great city in which there are more than 120,000 persons who do not know the difference between their right and left hand, as well as many animals?"
The city was not overthrown, they repented and God had compassion on them. That's why Jonah was mad at God. That's why God explained to him how God can have compassion on a city.
Lee: We covered this already! God refers to Babylon as a single nation (Jer. 25:12, etc.), so we should take the sense in which the Bible refers to nations and Babylon, when interpreting this prophecy.
Jeremiah 25:12 "'Then it will be when seventy years are completed I will punish the king of Babylon and that nation,' declares the LORD, 'for their iniquity, and the land of the Chaldeans; and I will make it an everlasting desolation."
Babylon, Chaldea, Nebuchadnezzar was a "king of kings", Ezekial 26:7
he was the king of a federation of many city-states and regions, Shumer, Akkad, Ur, Larsam, Nippur, Shirpurla, Kish, Babylon, Uruk, etc. and many peoples.
http://ragz-international.com/babylonia.htm
Ezekial 26:
7 For thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I will bring upon Tyre from the north Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, king of kings, with horses, chariots, cavalry and a great army.
8 "He will slay your daughters on the mainland with the sword; and he will make siege walls against you, cast up a ramp against you and raise up a large shield against you.
9 "The blow of his battering rams he will direct against your walls, and with his axes he will break down your towers.
10 "Because of the multitude of his horses, the dust raised by them will cover you; your walls will shake at the noise of cavalry and wagons and chariots when he enters your gates as men enter a city that is breached.
11 "With the hoofs of his horses he will trample all your streets. He will slay your people with the sword; and your strong pillars will come down to the ground.
12 "Also they will make a spoil of your riches and a prey of your merchandise, break down your walls and destroy your pleasant houses, and throw your stones and your timbers and your debris into the water.
13 "So I will silence the sound of your songs, and the sound of your harps will be heard no more.
14 "I will make you a bare rock; you will be a place for the spreading of nets. You will be built no more, for I the LORD have spoken," declares the Lord GOD.
The prophecy about Nebuchadnezzar destroying Tyre failed.
Lee:No, I meant no one took Jehoiachin's place. Then Jehoiakim had no one sitting on his throne, like the prophecy said...
The prophecy said no one would follow Jehoiakim, but Jehoiachin did. The prophecy was not accurate.
If such contradictory and loose "fulfillments" of prophecy are allowed for Christianity, ALL other prophecies should be allowed, Joseph Smith, Edgar Cayce, Jean Dixon, etc. | | Back to Top | | |
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