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| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > The raging debate continues here... > change in prophecy, does the future change? | Forum Quick Jump
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Sisters of Cain
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Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 7/20/2004 5:56 AM (GMT -6) |   | Ezekiel 20
1 Now in the seventh year, in the fifth month, on the tenth of the month, certain of the elders of Israel came to inquire of the LORD, and sat before me.
2 And the word of the LORD came to me saying,
3 "Son of man, speak to the elders of Israel and say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "Do you come to inquire of Me? As I live," declares the Lord GOD, "I will not be inquired of by you."'
4 "Will you judge them, will you judge them, son of man? Make them know the abominations of their fathers;
5 and say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "On the day when I chose Israel and swore to the descendants of the house of Jacob and made Myself known to them in the land of Egypt, when I swore to them, saying, I am the LORD your God,
6 on that day I swore to them, to bring them out from the land of Egypt into a land that I had selected for them, flowing with milk and honey, which is the glory of all lands.
God forsaw that He was going to bring them into the promised land?
7 "I said to them, 'Cast away, each of you, the detestable things of his eyes, and do not defile yourselves with the idols of Egypt; I am the LORD your God.'
8 "But they rebelled against Me and were not willing to listen to Me; they did not cast away the detestable things of their eyes, nor did they forsake the idols of Egypt. Then I resolved to pour out My wrath on them, to accomplish My anger against them in the midst of the land of Egypt.
9 "But I acted for the sake of My name, that it should not be profaned in the sight of the nations among whom they lived, in whose sight I made Myself known to them by bringing them out of the land of Egypt.
10 "So I took them out of the land of Egypt and brought them into the wilderness.
11 "I gave them My statutes and informed them of My ordinances, by which, if a man observes them, he will live.
12 "Also I gave them My sabbaths to be a sign between Me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD who sanctifies them.
13 "But the house of Israel rebelled against Me in the wilderness. They did not walk in My statutes and they rejected My ordinances, by which, if a man observes them, he will live; and My sabbaths they greatly profaned. Then I resolved to pour out My wrath on them in the wilderness, to annihilate them.
14 "But I acted for the sake of My name, that it should not be profaned in the sight of the nations, before whose sight I had brought them out.
15 "Also I swore to them in the wilderness that I would not bring them into the land which I had given them, flowing with milk and honey, which is the glory of all lands
God forsaw that He WOULDN'T bring them into the promised land?
Which is it?
God prophesized while they were in Egypt He would bring them into the promised land.
Then God prophesized while they were in the desert that He WOULD NOT bring them into the promised land.
Did the future change before it happened? 
Maybe the future hasn't happened yet.
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Sisters of Cain
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| Posted 7/20/2004 8:13 AM (GMT -6) | | <planets spin, stars burn out, non-rolling stones gather moss>
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 7/20/2004 8:22 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/20/2004 1:12 PM (GMT -6) | | Ross, its a 'peanut gallery' comment. And I can't remember my exact thought. But it has to do with how we have this tradition that all the little details must--for the sake or the design of our thoughts--all dictate their own contextual-field, as if everything explains itself and is not given meaning by things beyond them. (I'm not being lucid; sorry.) Medieval nominalism and our habit that extends from it gets hung up on the trees/details, and is not very alert at letting the forest/significance define them.
I'm uncomfortable with any commitment to necessarily apply this to sister's post. (It was 'peanut galler!') But it reminded me of thinking that we all bring to matters such as this. We try to explain details always by other details, and not by something larger that is on the order of "purpose."
Does that communicate? (I'm fresh from a nap, and am not sure.)
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Lee Merrill
booted
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Total Posts : 723
| Posted 7/20/2004 4:51 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi Sisters,
You're keeping me busy!
Ezekiel 20:6 On that day I swore to them that I would bring them out of Egypt into a land I had searched out for them, a land flowing with milk and honey, the most beautiful of all lands.
Ezekiel 20:15 Also with uplifted hand I swore to them in the desert that I would not bring them into the land I had given them ...
But verse 6 refers to the Israelites and their descendants, for God says he did bring them in:
Ezekiel 20:28 When I brought them into the land I had sworn to give them and they saw any high hill or any leafy tree, there they offered their sacrifices ...
Thus we have to take "them" in verse 15 as referring to specific individuals, to "them in the desert," and verse 6 and 28 to Israelites in general, to these people and their descendants.
This passage even refers to the people of Ezekiel's day as being involved in God's dealings with Israel in the days of Moses:
Ezekiel 20:35-36 I will bring you into the desert of the nations and there, face to face, I will execute judgment upon you. As I judged your fathers in the desert of the land of Egypt, so I will judge you, declares the Sovereign Lord.
Blessings,
Lee
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JEE
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Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 7/20/2004 5:01 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sisters of Cain
Ezekiel 20
1 Now in the seventh year, in the fifth month, on the tenth of the month, certain of the elders of Israel came to inquire of the LORD, and sat before me.
2 And the word of the LORD came to me saying,
3 "Son of man, speak to the elders of Israel and say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "Do you come to inquire of Me? As I live," declares the Lord GOD, "I will not be inquired of by you."'
4 "Will you judge them, will you judge them, son of man? Make them know the abominations of their fathers;
(God is telling the prophet to retell the abominations of that Israel had committed in the past).
5 and say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "On the day when I chose Israel and swore to the descendants of the house of Jacob and made Myself known to them in the land of Egypt, when I swore to them, saying, I am the LORD your God,
6 on that day I swore to them, to bring them out from the land of Egypt into a land that I had selected for them, flowing with milk and honey, which is the glory of all lands.
God forsaw that He was going to bring them into the promised land?
Precisely where is the word "foresaw" in the above passage?
quote:
7 "I said to them, 'Cast away, each of you, the detestable things of his eyes, and do not defile yourselves with the idols of Egypt; I am the LORD your God.'
8 "But they rebelled against Me and were not willing to listen to Me; they did not cast away the detestable things of their eyes, nor did they forsake the idols of Egypt. Then I resolved to pour out My wrath on them, to accomplish My anger against them in the midst of the land of Egypt.
9 "But I acted for the sake of My name, that it should not be profaned in the sight of the nations among whom they lived, in whose sight I made Myself known to them by bringing them out of the land of Egypt.
10 "So I took them out of the land of Egypt and brought them into the wilderness.
11 "I gave them My statutes and informed them of My ordinances, by which, if a man observes them, he will live.
12 "Also I gave them My sabbaths to be a sign between Me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD who sanctifies them.
13 "But the house of Israel rebelled against Me in the wilderness. They did not walk in My statutes and they rejected My ordinances, by which, if a man observes them, he will live; and My sabbaths they greatly profaned. Then I resolved to pour out My wrath on them in the wilderness, to annihilate them.
14 "But I acted for the sake of My name, that it should not be profaned in the sight of the nations, before whose sight I had brought them out.
15 "Also I swore to them in the wilderness that I would not bring them into the land which I had given them, flowing with milk and honey, which is the glory of all lands
God forsaw that He WOULDN'T bring them into the promised land?
Obviously, Zeke is speaking from a later time period, and in this passage God is reflecting on what he had PROMISED/SWORN to do for Israel. Also, the CONDITIONS of the promise being fulfilled are interwoven throughout the passage; i.e., vv. 7, 11, 12, & 13. As Israel did not hold up their end of the bargain (so to speak), God's promises to do certain things for them were nullified.
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Sisters of Cain
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Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 7/21/2004 1:45 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by JEE
Obviously, Zeke is speaking from a later time period, and in this passage God is reflecting on what he had PROMISED/SWORN to do for Israel. Also, the CONDITIONS of the promise being fulfilled are interwoven throughout the passage; i.e., vv. 7, 11, 12, & 13. As Israel did not hold up their end of the bargain (so to speak), God's promises to do certain things for them were nullified.
Exactly, it's a conditional prophecy, proof that the future is NOT settled and that God doesn't know everything about the future.
If the future is already done and God is just viewing it, then the future changed before it happened.
Ezekial 20:
6 on that day I swore to them, to bring them out from the land of Egypt into a land that I had selected for them, flowing with milk and honey, which is the glory of all lands.
15 Also I swore to them in the wilderness that I would not bring them into the land which I had given them, flowing with milk and honey, which is the glory of all lands
The group in Egypt, He promised to bring into the promised land.
The same group, now in the desert, He promised He would NOT bring into the promised land. Change in plans....
Occam's Razor
"one should not increase, beyond what is necessary, the number of entities required to explain anything"
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Sisters of Cain
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Total Posts : 431
| Posted 7/22/2004 1:43 AM (GMT -6) | | Numbers 14:
30 "Surely you shall not come into the land in which I swore to settle you, except Caleb the son of Jephunneh and Joshua the son of Nun."
God explains the change in plans, Himself.
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Sisters of Cain
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Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 7/24/2004 9:30 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Lee Merrill
quote:
Numbers 14:
30 "Surely you shall not come into the land in which I swore to settle you, except Caleb the son of Jephunneh and Joshua the son of Nun."
God explains the change in plans, Himself.
I think conditional prophecies are conditional from our perspective,
So God can break His end of the agreement?
"If you obey, you will live, If you disobey, you will be punished".
Which end doesn't need to be kept? God's end or our end?
Conditionals are agreements between two parties, both of which have to keep their end of the agreement.
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Sisters of Cain
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Total Posts : 431
| Posted 7/26/2004 2:09 AM (GMT -6) | | Lee blathered:
quote:
I believe that he will certainly fulfill his promise, either way.
So, the same group of Israelites, He both brought into the land and didn't bring into the land?
That's doing two contradictory things.
"I will bring you into the land"
"I will NOT bring you into the land"
He fulfilled both of these for the same people?
quote:
Originally posted by Lee Merrill
quote:
Sisters of Cain:Conditionals are agreements between two parties, both of which have to keep their end of the agreement.
The condition is with us, and again, from our perspective here...
God gives a condition to us, a choice.
We do A, He does A'.
We do B, He does B'.
BOTH we and God have to have the same understanding of this implied agreement or there is NO communication between us and God.
What you said is completely meaningless and just demonstrates how incoherent you really are.
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Lee Merrill
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Total Posts : 723
| Posted 7/26/2004 4:12 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi SOC,
Blather up!
quote:
So, the same group of Israelites, He both brought into the land and didn't bring into the land?
That's doing two contradictory things.
"I will bring you into the land"
"I will NOT bring you into the land"
He fulfilled both of these for the same people?
No, the first promise was unconditional, and was fulfilled, the second was not fulfilled, because it was conditional, and the condition was not met.
quote:
Lee: The condition is with us, and again, from our perspective here...
SOC: God gives a condition to us, a choice.
We do A, He does A'.
We do B, He does B'.
BOTH we and God have to have the same understanding of this implied agreement or there is NO communication between us and God.
I agree! And the condition is with us, and there is no condition with God.
Blessings,
Lee
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Sisters of Cain
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| Posted 7/27/2004 1:29 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
No, the first promise was unconditional, and was fulfilled, the second was not fulfilled, because it was conditional, and the condition was not met.
The first prophecy was not fulfilled, the Jews brought from Egypt died in the desert and did not enter the land.
The second prophecy was not conditional, God just told them He wasn't bringing them into the land, no conditions.
The second prophecy was fulfilled.
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Lee Merrill
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Total Posts : 723
| Posted 7/27/2004 4:27 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Lee: No, the first promise was unconditional, and was fulfilled, the second was not fulfilled, because it was conditional, and the condition was not met.
SOC: The first prophecy was not fulfilled, the Jews brought from Egypt died in the desert and did not enter the land.
The second prophecy was not conditional, God just told them He wasn't bringing them into the land, no conditions.
Come to think of it, two of them did make it! Joshua and Caleb. Now you have to show that the first promise meant every single one of them would make it. And that nobody would die before they entered the promised land.
So I can now say the first promise was unconditional, with reference to the group, and the second promise "I will not bring you in" was also unconditional, and directed to those who rebelled, thus the first statement meant "some of this group," and the second meant "all who rebelled."
I recommend my blather, by the way, I shave with it. I even use Occam's razor...
Blessings,
Lee
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Sisters of Cain
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Total Posts : 431
| Posted 7/28/2004 2:15 AM (GMT -6) | | Numbers 14:30 "Surely you shall not come into the land in which I swore to settle you, except Caleb the son of Jephunneh and Joshua the son of Nun."
God said He was reneging on the promise.
The promise: "the land in which I swore to settle you"
The reneging: "you shall not come into the land"
So the prophecy was fulfilled for two but unfulfilled for other 3 million Hebrews.
If God had known beforehand that they would lose faith in God's power after sending spies into the land, He wouldn't have prophecied about bringing them into the land.
The future hasn't happened yet; it can't be known until it happens.
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Sisters of Cain
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Total Posts : 431
| Posted 7/29/2004 1:38 AM (GMT -6) | | Numbers 14:30 "Surely you shall not come into the land in which I swore to settle you"
It's right there, God's words. God is telling 2,999,998 people that He's not bringing them into the land He swore He would bring them into.
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JEE
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 7/30/2004 11:09 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Lee Merrill
Hi John,
quote:
Lee: But you left out "except Joshua and Caleb"! If some of them come into the land (even only two!), then this promise was still fulfilled.
John: Try telling that to the 99.99999% who found the promise to them was annulled.
Are you saying that if 99.99999% had entered the land, the prophecy still would have failed? Thus no one could die, even, until they all reached the promised land...
Blessings,
Lee
No, I'm saying that your contention that "Well, Joshua and Caleb" received the promise, while of course true, misses the whole point SOC is trying to make; that is:
Heb 3:7 ¶ Therefore, just as the Holy Spirit says, "TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,
8 DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME, AS IN THE DAY OF TRIAL IN THE WILDERNESS,
9 WHERE YOUR FATHERS TRIED {Me} BY TESTING {Me,} AND SAW MY WORKS FOR FORTY YEARS.
10 "THEREFORE I WAS ANGRY WITH THIS GENERATION, AND SAID, 'THEY ALWAYS GO ASTRAY IN THEIR HEART, AND THEY DID NOT KNOW MY WAYS';
11 AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH, 'THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST.'"
12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.
13 But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is {still} called "Today," so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,
15 while it is said, "TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE, DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS, AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME."
16 For who provoked {Him} when they had heard? Indeed, did not all those who came out of Egypt {led} by Moses?
17 And with whom was He angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness?
18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient?
19 {So} we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief.
Heb 4:1 Therefore, let us fear if, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you may seem to have come short of it.
2 For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also; but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard.
Heb 4:11 Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through {following} the same example of disobedience.
(NASB places OT quotes in allcaps).
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Lee Merrill
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 7/31/2004 6:23 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi JEE,
quote:
Lee: Are you saying that if 99.99999% had entered the land, the prophecy still would have failed? Thus no one could die, even, until they all reached the promised land...
JEE: No, I'm saying that your contention that "Well, Joshua and Caleb" received the promise, while of course true, misses the whole point SOC is trying to make; that is:
Heb 3:7 ¶ Therefore, just as the Holy Spirit says, "TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,
8 DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME, AS IN THE DAY OF TRIAL IN THE WILDERNESS,
9 WHERE YOUR FATHERS TRIED {Me} BY TESTING {Me,} AND SAW MY WORKS FOR FORTY YEARS.
10 "THEREFORE I WAS ANGRY WITH THIS GENERATION, AND SAID, 'THEY ALWAYS GO ASTRAY IN THEIR HEART, AND THEY DID NOT KNOW MY WAYS';
11 AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH, 'THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST.'"
I certainly agree with Scripture! I'm not sure what your exact point is, here, though. Is every promise made to the nation of Israel applicable to every single Israelite, unconditionally? I think this passage says the opposite:
Hebrews 4:1 Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it.
The promise is there, but some may fall short of it. Not everyone! But some may...
Blessings,
Lee
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