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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 516
| Posted 6/28/2001 5:12 PM (GMT -6) |   | Message Go To Page 2 >>
pneumatika
03/13/01 1:11 PM
Is God a Chess Player?
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Can someone start to explain to me the differences between what God predicts as a possibility and what He knows must happen? If God can only work around the islands of man's free-will, how can He influence anything?
--that Pneumatika guy
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
BBBCanada
03/13/01 3:00 PM
RE: Is God a Chess Player?
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pneumatika asks:
"Is God a Chess Player?"
Ummmm...I don't know, but I sure hope he likes CHECKERS!
Brandon
Between this and the "Attack by Ware on OT" thread, this humor is getting real pathetic.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
ghost-dog-girl
03/13/01 3:18 PM
RE: Is God a Chess Player?
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Pneumatika guy, you ask excellent questions. GDG
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
ModesofThought
03/13/01 6:18 PM
RE: Is God a Chess Player?
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The chess player analogy is actually a very good one.
1. It retains the fact that possibilities are limited and much exists by necessity.
2. The "opponent" (novice, let us say) makes real decisions which have effects, even for the master player.
3. The master is still sure to win, particularly as an omniscient stragizer. Libertarian freedom remains plausible here.
4. An expert chess player knows that she can limit the situations so that the opponent is forced to make certain decisions. These decisions are still up to the novice, but are fully anticipated by the master.
Please restate the question so that I can see why you might think that God, as the master chess player is unable to influence anything. He is in the game after all, moreover, he created the game and set the rules. A fine analogy indeed!
So far, my answer is, anologically speaking, "Yes, God is a Chess Player." The fault of the analogy is that it does not adequately portray the relation of God to the world. God does not simply stand outside the world as an observer until its God's move. Perhaps the analogy is helped by saying that God is the stonesmith who crafts the board, all the pieces and creates the novice player, and this God does for each novice. We as God's creatures made in God's image are the novices.
nice question...
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Jfarley
03/15/01 10:57 PM
RE: RE: Is God a Chess Player?
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Is God trustworthy? Does God make mistakes? The reason that I ask is because not to long ago that master chess player lost to that computer and I am not sure if God would be the computer or the master chess player but either way, if God is a master chess player, what if he was totally surprised by the move of a novice. I am asking honest questions, I am not trying to beliddle. This is just all very new to me. I am just thinking that if God is just the master chess player of the universe and I am assuming we are the other player, not the peices, then I am in trouble. First, I don't think that I could compete with God, If I am trying to really win this game, then I am in trouble. How in the world would I ever get to heaven. If someone could respond, that would be helpful.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
RevivalTheology
03/16/01 7:00 AM
RE: Is God a Chess Player?
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Jfarley wrote:
Is God trustworthy? Does God make mistakes?
The answer to the first is "of course." The answer to the second is, what do you mean by "mistakes"? Does God make errors in judgement based on a lack of knowledge, improper motivation, inability to cope, etc? No. God knows all there is to know, is always and only holy, and is able to cope with any circumstance that might arise. However, in dealing with free moral agents, has God acted on an expectation (the most probable course predictable given His exhaustive knowledge of the circumstances) and things turned out different from the expectation? The bible affirms this on numerous occasions.
The reason that I ask is because not to long ago that master chess player lost to that computer and I am not sure if God would be the computer or the master chess player but either way, if God is a master chess player, what if he was totally surprised by the move of a novice.
The problem with any analogy is one must understand the analogous situation in order to apply it effectively. There is no move a novice chess player could make which would which would be outside the Grand Master's skill to deal with or counter. The computer beat the Grand Master precisely because it could anticipate EVERY possible move. It had been programed to BE a grand master but finally had more computational power than a human Grand Master. Now, we are in the opposite position with God. He is the eternal, omnipotent, Grand Master who has created (programmed, if you will) US in HIS image. But we can never match His computational power. See the difference here?
I am asking honest questions, I am not trying to beliddle. This is just all very new to me. I am just thinking that if God is just the master chess player of the universe and I am assuming we are the other player, not the peices, then I am in trouble. First, I don't think that I could compete with God, If I am trying to really win this game, then I am in trouble. How in the world would I ever get to heaven. If someone could respond, that would be helpful.
First, no analogy about God can ever describe ALL of Who He is or what can be said about Him, nor is it meant to. The Chess Master analogy is simply one means of illustrating His relationship to free moral agents. Further, if we carry it too far, it begins to lose its applicability. As believer's, submitted to the will of God, we are not competing against Him in order to "win" anything. Our goal should be, if we wish to maintain the analogy, to learn which moves to make from Him. However, the analogy itself applies far better to a broader scope of history rather than to individual interpersonal relationships with God.
Does this help?
In the Lamb
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
pneumatika
03/16/01 11:54 AM
Is God a BAD Chess Player?
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Someone has said, "in dealing with free moral agents, has God acted on an expectation and things turned out different from the expectation? The bible affirms this on numerous occasions."
I acknowledge that I have seen no biblical support for this assertion. Nevertheless, if God has infinite knowledge of the present and the past and still expected "wrong," does this not make Him a poor chess player? Is this not a God that makes "mistakes"?
More to the point, if He expected wrong about something in the past/present, on what basis may I have any confidence that He won't do the same in my future. Because He usually guesses correctly?
--that Pneumatika guy
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Mephi2K
03/16/01 12:00 PM
RE: Is God a BAD Chess Player?
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Say, Pneumatika. Sup! I think that my post on the "Foreknowledge" thread would be of some interest to you. Just a thought.
Meph
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
mn777saint
03/16/01 2:26 PM
Poll Question: Is the game of Chess ever the same game twice?
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There is a reason for me asking this so please Vote what you think.
Thank you
Yes
No
Don't Know
View Poll Results
Mephi2K
03/16/01 2:41 PM
Meph Gets A Little Technical (What a Pedant...)
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MN77,
Forgive me. I'm not trying to overcomplicate things but to make a specific point.
This is the question:
"Is the game of Chess ever the same game twice?"
The answer could be YES, IF you are STRICTLY talking about specific manuevers on the board. Of course, two people can completely different sets of players can make the EXACT same moves as each other, theoretically. It would be highly unlikely but it is in the realm of possibility.
The answer also could be NO, IF we are taking ALL factors into consideration. If we look at the necessarily subjective nature of perception and agency, then EVERY game of chess would be different by necessity, even if the same two people played against each other, using the EXACT same moves over and over again.
As you can now see, context is the key. Since I would incorporate ALL of the factors, and not merely the moves, I'm going to say "no" to the question. However, I would like to note something else. The point of the analogy, as I believe open view theists use it, deals with the first situation much more than the second. The total amount of possible maneuvers in all possible games is taken to be analogous to God's "foreknowledge" This is why he is called the chess MASTER. It's not necessary to take any other factors into account for this claim to be made. The chessmaster analogy is not meant to extend into the realm of the inner nature, thoughts, and motivations of the opponent, per se. Enough rambling. I voted already.
Peace,
Meph
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
RevivalTheology
03/16/01 2:48 PM
RE: Is God a BAD Chess Player?
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pneumatika wrote:
Someone has said, "in dealing with free moral agents, has God acted on an expectation and things turned out different from the expectation? The bible affirms this on numerous occasions."
I acknowledge that I have seen no biblical support for this assertion.
Hmmmmm, how about when He floods the earth; or when He changes His mind about driving out the inhabitants of the Promised Land after He had already unconditionally said He would; or how about when He regrets (repents) of making Saul king over Israel; or how about when He tells Moses He is going to destroy Israel and make a nation from Moses to serve Him and then does not when Moses intercedes?
Nevertheless, if God has infinite knowledge of the present and the past and still expected "wrong," does this not make Him a poor chess player? Is this not a God that makes "mistakes"?
Not to quible, but since the present and past to represent an "infinite" amount of information, God could not have an "infinite" knowledge of them. "Exhaustive" is probably a better term. Now, if I know how to counter every move made in chess and, anticipating you take one direction but take another, I still counter your moves and mate you, how does that make me a "bad" chess player?
Perhaps we should first define what is meant by "expectation". What I mean by it, off the top of my head, is an anticipation based on prior experience and present knowledge that something will occur in a particular manner (which just happens to be what the Greek for "foreknowledge" pretty much means etymologically speaking).
More to the point, if He expected wrong about something in the past/present, on what basis may I have any confidence that He won't do the same in my future. Because He usually guesses correctly?
How does "expect" become "guess"? Do you expect to go to work on Monday (if you have a M-F job) or do you "guess" that you will go? Do you expect to eat supper tonight, or do you only "guess" that you will? To guess is to make a decision or choice based on insufficient information. Someone knocks on the door, I might guess who is there prior to looking out the window. However, once I look out my window, I expect the person I see to be there when I open the door. If they suddenly run off before I get to the door, did I "guess"? Was my expectation bad, poor, faulty, etc? No, it means the choice of another changed the reality away from my expectation.
In the Lamb
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Mephi2K
03/16/01 2:50 PM
RE: RE: Is God a BAD Chess Player?
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Do we realize what it means to say that God has EXHAUSTIVE knowledge of all past states of reality and EXHAUSTIVE knowledge of the present state of reality at any point in time...but THEN, turn around and say that God can be WRONG on a expectation in the VERY NEXT MOMENT in the future, SPECIFICALLY with respect to human action and decision? Talk about square circles, scientifically speaking!
Meph
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
ModesofThought
03/16/01 3:10 PM
RE: RE: RE: Is God a BAD Chess Player?
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Hello my friend, by "scientifically speaking" you must mean Newtonian causal relations or even Einstein's interpretation of his Relativity theories? We have seen, however, that there is an irreducible indeterminancy built into the very structure of reality which is not proven by our lack of precision in measurement but rather our readings at the very precise level showing irreducible unpredictability. Actually this is called Heisenberg's Uncertainty Prinicple and is foundational to quantum theory. Of course this "randomness" does not yet get us to "free will", but it is a necessary metaphysical precondition. So to answer your question more directly:
Yes, I believe that God has EXHAUSTIVE AND INFINITE knowledge of past and present actuality AND that the future (even the very IMMEDIATE future) is to some extent indeterminate. So God's knowledge then is infinite, exhaustive regardless of the time reference. It is definite with regard to the past and present, but at least partly indefinite with regard to the future. This is the nature of the claim of pantemporalism, which I do claim. This is a very respectable scientific assertion currently. The best scholarly treatment of this subject that I know of so far is called: "Physics and the Ultimate Significane of Time." An expensive and hard to get book, but very well worth it for those interested in this topic.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
ModesofThought
03/16/01 3:17 PM
RE: RE: RE: Is God a Chess Player?
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I think (hope!) you have misunderstood the intention of this analogy. (Or perhaps I have?) All analogies break down, of course, and this one is not about God "beating" us, but how do we talk about God's action in relation to our activity or even more broadly, the activity of nations, or the world as a whole. We all know in terms of salvation, there is no chess match. Yielding to the grace of God is all there is.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
ModesofThought
03/16/01 3:25 PM
RE: Is God a BAD Chess Player?
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Jer. 3:7 & 19
"And I [God speaking] thought, 'After she has done all this she will return to me'; but she did not return."
"I thought how I would set you among my sons, and give you a pleasant land, a heritage most beauteous of all nations. And I thought you would call me, My Father, and would not turn from following me. Surely, as a faithless wife leaves her husband, so have you been faithless to me, O house of Israel."
There's two off the top of my head for starters...
Do those count?
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Mephi2K
03/16/01 3:33 PM
Yay, Modes!
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Modes,
Hey, buddy! I got all my stuff back. Wonderful, huh? You said:
"We have seen, however, that there is an irreducible indeterminancy built into the very structure of reality which is not proven by our lack of precision in measurement but rather our readings at the very precise level showing irreducible unpredictability. Actually this is called Heisenberg's Uncertainty Prinicple and is foundational to quantum theory. Of course this "randomness" does not yet get us to "free will", but it is a necessary metaphysical precondition." (Emphasis mine)
Meph:
Actually, as I mention in another post, the HUP that is foundational to quantum theory is basically IRRELEVANT to the determinism that we find macrocosmically, especially with respect to the sphere of human deliberation and decision. I don't ignore HUP, nor do I hold to Newtonian physics. But I do believe that I understand the limitations of the applications of HUP.
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You said:
"Yes, I believe that God has EXHAUSTIVE AND INFINITE knowledge of past and present actuality AND that the future (even the very IMMEDIATE future) is to some extent indeterminate. So God's knowledge then is infinite, exhaustive regardless of the time reference. It is definite with regard to the past and present, but at least partly indefinite with regard to the future. "
Meph:
The question is this: Does this indeterminancy extend to MACROCOSMIC situations, which are the realm of sentient will? I don't think so. Hmmmm...
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Love ya, man,
Mephi2K
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
ModesofThought
03/16/01 4:06 PM
RE: Yay, Modes!
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PRAISE THE LORD!!! Meph, so glad to hear the good news!!! I'd hate it if you had a really serious set back acedemically. I hope for great things from you in the future.
To your question:
In a similar fashion to your confession that you cannot really satisfy DOC's quest for an analogy, though you are satisfied...I point you to the two recent indicators or even analogies, if you will that are sufficient grounds for my confirmation of what I cannot deny (experientially) anyway, namely libertarian freedom. The two points come from opposite extremes and thus point to a continuity in the middle:
1. The argument based upon God's aseity, that God has this ability to do otherwise, sets precedence for the possibility that we have been granted it as well. It offers it plausibility though perhaps not clarity.
2. HUP at the very small offers a metaphysical precondition which points to the availability of such indeterminateness.
If I were to try to craft a fuller argument, I would at this point turn to Scripture, but this has been done by Terrance Fretheim "The Suffering of God" and Boyd's "The God of the Possible."
By the time youget done with this post, one might note that I have shown directions for how I would argue according to all four authorities within Wesley's quadralateral. I didn't explicitly discuss tradition, but all know that the debate has raged on there throughout the tradition and even prior to when Christian thinking began...
Who knows, maybe we'll nail it this time! I doubt it though...Lot's smarter people than me have argued both for and against it. Often both from the same person!
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
ModesofThought
03/16/01 4:09 PM
RE: Yay, Modes!
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Meph, my wife said you called, we gotta talk, I got an idea. I'm outa town though and probably can't get back by phone til Monday. Are you back up and running at home now, online that is?
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Mephi2K
03/16/01 4:41 PM
RE: RE: Yay, Modes!
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Yep. I'm running at home now. Thank God. I don't like going on campus that much...
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
TGB
03/17/01 6:36 AM
God's Not Your Competitor
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“First, I don't think that I could compete with God…”
JFarley-
I like the Chess analogy and agree with Modes that it captures the essentials involved in describing God creating us with free will and interacting with us. I think there’s an important point that needs to be made with regard to this analogy, and that is, in playing chess, God makes his moves with your BEST interests heart. That is, you and he are not competitors. He moves in wisdom, love, and mercy so that you WIN! This is an aspect not brought out in the chess analogy. God may orchestrate moves “against” a Hitler, but not against those who move with him.
Tom
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