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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 8/2/2004 5:44 PM (GMT -6) |   | It was "not possible" for Jesus to sin. Its even a rediculous thought when considered. Christ's humanity (body and soul) were tempted, and they were naturally subject to death. But they were only vulnerable (I have to reach for words here.) to the extent that he willed them, voluntarily to suffer.
Christ did all the things he did, so say some of the main Church Fathers, in order to bring all things subject to himself. He was even baptized, though he did not need cleansing himself. (And some would then say that they water "got baptized.")
There was the numerical possibility of sin. But neither the devine nature of Christ nor his human nature would will (Count two wills; as whatever in us needs healing from sin, that same Christ assumed and brought to the Cross and the Resurrection.) to sin. His humanity is the "recapitulation" of humanity, showing us that the created nature of mankind is designed for fellowship with God.
PotOnWheel | | Back to Top | | |
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feelinahole
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 8/2/2004 5:55 PM (GMT -6) | | | POW: it is NOT a ridiculous thought to entertain as I am one who definitely believed Jesus could have sinned. To say he could not have sinned takes away from the greatness of what he did, the wonder of such strength in a human being. You deny the true glory of what he did. Not the mention the fact that a person cannot be truly tempted if they cannot truly sin. Regardless, such statements such as "ridiculous" close all doors to discussion and give no respect to an opposing view which is scriptural. | | Back to Top | | |
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 8/2/2004 6:13 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by PotOnWheel
It was "not possible" for Jesus to sin. Its even a rediculous thought when considered. Christ's humanity (body and soul) were tempted, and they were naturally subject to death. But they were only vulnerable (I have to reach for words here.) to the extent that he willed them, voluntarily to suffer.
Christ did all the things he did, so say some of the main Church Fathers, in order to bring all things subject to himself. He was even baptized, though he did not need cleansing himself. (And some would then say that they water "got baptized.")
There was the numerical possibility of sin. But neither the devine nature of Christ nor his human nature would will (Count two wills; as whatever in us needs healing from sin, that same Christ assumed and brought to the Cross and the Resurrection.) to sin. His humanity is the "recapitulation" of humanity, showing us that the created nature of mankind is designed for fellowship with God.
PotOnWheel
The scripture clearly states in Heb. 2:17, 18 that Jesus was made like His brothers so that He could suffer through the temptation and now is able to help those who are being tempted. Heb 5:8 tells us that Jesus "learned obedience" through that which He suffered.
I hope I did not offend anyone, that was not me intention. If the testing of Abraham's faith by God is proof of an open future, then why doesn't the same priciple apply to the temptation of Jesus? And if the principle does apply also to the temptation of Jesus, would the OV position be that God and Jesus did not know whether or not Jesus would sin, just as in the case of Abraham?
His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. | | Back to Top | | |
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John Earp
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 8/2/2004 6:27 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
The scripture clearly states in Heb. 2:17, 18 that Jesus was made like His brothers so that He could suffer through the temptation and now is able to help those who are being tempted. Heb 5:8 tells us that Jesus "learned obedience" through that which He suffered.
I hope I did not offend anyone, that was not me intention. If the testing of Abraham's faith by God is proof of an open future, then why doesn't the same priciple apply to the temptation of Jesus? And if the principle does apply also to the temptation of Jesus, would the OV position be that God and Jesus did not know whether or not Jesus would sin, just as in the case of Abraham?
I don't see how else His temptations were valid, if sin was not a possibility for Him. Which brings up a VERY important point--how do we define sin? If sin is a "nature" a la Augustine, Luther, Calvin, et al, then Jesus was either not fully human or somehow was exempted from this so-called sinful nature, but then how could it be true that He "was made like unto his brethren" (was genuinely human) and tempted so that he could help those who are tempted?
If on the other hand, sin is simply and only an ACT (which I submit is the true scriptural view), then it follows that Christ was born into the world every bit as human as the rest of us, and that by the power of the Holy Spirit he overcame, sin, temptation, death and hell.
Rev. 3:21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
22 "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches."" NKJV
1 Peter 1:13 Therefore, prepare your minds for action; be self-controlled; set your hope fully on the grace to be given you when Jesus Christ is revealed. 14As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance. 15But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; 16for it is written: "Be holy, because I am holy."
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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John Earp
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 8/2/2004 6:36 PM (GMT -6) | | As to whether God knew if Jesus would sin or not, I think we need to make a clear distinction between a MORAL impossibility and a PHYSICAL impossibility. Jesus (and even the Father) have the physical ability to sin (that is it is in their power); however, it would be absolutely MORALLY impossible for God or Jesus or the Holy Spirit to do that which is against their WILL. I submit that God cannot sin, not because of some kind of necessitated nature, which would make him effectively "a holy machine", but rather, God cannot sin because God WILLS not to sin. He always has, and He always WILL.
All moral action is predicated upon freedom to choose. If God is not FREELY holy and righteous, then holiness in man, whenever found, would be a FAR more praiseworthy thing than holiness in God, for it would mean nothing worthy of praise for God to simply do that which He is physically necessitated to do.
Also, Satan, if he does not possess free will even in his present state, can in no wise be worthy of blame for his actions.
All moral action is voluntary by definition.
So from my view, one can say Jesus COULD not have sinned, not because he lacked the power to choose, but because he WILLED not to sin. And this He did, according to Scripture, led by the Holy Spirit in his life. (His free will alone was not sufficient for him to complete the work he had been called to--nor is ours).
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 8/2/2004 8:38 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
OV'ers use God's test for Abraham to offer up Issac as proof of an open future. Would this include the tempting of Jesus by Satan? Are we to believe (according to OV Theology) that it was possible for Jesus to sin being that there was a reason for His temptation?
Lock
Lock,
I've not been an "OV'er" for very long - a little more than two years of exploring...but, one of the mysteries that was seemingly unexplainable to me previously - was the "mysterious" testing by God of Abraham. I could never understand, how my Father who was love, could "test" a father (or a mother for that matter), in this way. It just didn't jive with the character of the Father, that I saw in Jesus.
When I understood that the Father wasn't absolutely certain that Abraham's heart was for Him (above even his children) - I understood that this was not some cruel test (where the Father already knew the outcome), but it was sincere. When God said, "Now I know..." He meant it. Abraham could have chosen otherwise - but the most important relationship in His life was with God. It is our heart that pleases God; the longings of our heart. Abraham longed for God - to be pleasing to Him, to live for Him, and obey Him - more than he longed for even his own children. I can't even begin to imagine that kind of devotion. I only hope that I could become that devoted, to know the voice of the Father that well - that I could trust Him implicitly.
As for Jesus' sinning - what would it mean to "be tempted in all ways, even as we are" if it wasn't really temptation? How could He be truly fully human (as well as being fully God), if He could not be tempted to sin. We have a great high priest who knows what temptation means. Another misunderstanding among believers is that temptation is sin. TEMPTATION IS NOT SIN. If we're not tempted, we're not human. Jesus was fully human, and tempted - but did not sin. That is so encouraging to me, but what is AS encouraging - is to know that He is our righteousness, and if we do sin, that we can confess our sins, knowing all the while that we are still righteous in Him, because of His sacrifice.
Jesus is the imprint of the Father. We can look at Him to know how the Father relates to us, how He views us, how to resist temptation... And, I know that my Father completely understands me - that He can know me intimately; not just because He created me, but because He experienced what I experienced - but yet became the perfect sacrifice for me; the perfect example, and my righteousness.
God Bless,
Jo-Anne 
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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Mordecai
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 19
| Posted 8/2/2004 9:48 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by moon_river_j
When I understood that the Father wasn't absolutely certain that Abraham's heart was for Him (above even his children) - I understood that this was not some cruel test (where the Father already knew the outcome), but it was sincere. When God said, "Now I know..." He meant it. Abraham could have chosen otherwise - but the most important relationship in His life was with God. It is our heart that pleases God; the longings of our heart. Abraham longed for God - to be pleasing to Him, to live for Him, and obey Him - more than he longed for even his own children. I can't even begin to imagine that kind of devotion. I only hope that I could become that devoted, to know the voice of the Father that well - that I could trust Him implicitly.
Greetings! It seems to me that scripture, like 1 Chron 28:9, make it clear that God knows the heart of every man, so I really don't get why God would need to test Abraham for the purposes knowing his heart.
And speaking of purpose, is the purpose for the testing of Abraham the same for the testing of Jesus? Did God the Father need to know if His Son would obey?
Thanx, am still examining OVT. | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 8/3/2004 4:16 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by JEE
quote:
Originally posted by Sahid
agree with John. Jesus made a choice not to sin, and it was a real choice. Had He wanted to (I don't know if John would take it this far) Jesus could have sinned, but He didn't want to. His character is consistent.[/font=Book Antiqua]
Yes, that is my understanding of this, Sahid. Also, if we keep in consideration the perfect wisdom, intelligence, and discernment God has (that would have been available to Jesus by the Holy Spirit "without measure" according to John 3:34), we can see that He would have easily seen right through any and all tempations Satan hurled his way. We see this actually was the case in his wilderness temptations--Satan was no match for Him, for he knew his Father and his Father's word.
John E
Good point, John E. And an important one.
Reading Athanasias I'm struck by how this complicated issue does not have everyone speaking with one voice of agreement. A part of the issue got addressed, with another whole side of it only solved a couple of centuries later. (Its no Crayola coloring project.)
The aspect of the Holy Spirit ministering to Christ's humanity (intertrinitarian 'stuff' uninterupted) is significant, and even (I think) part of what the NAME Christ means -- "annointed."
Fathers like Athanasias considered every little aspect of Christ's life to be a submission of our humanities weakness to his assumed humanity and its being "healed." Here we have temptation and weakness; which Athanasias would say is VOLUNTARILY assumed, rather than being part of actual weakness on His humanities part -- for Christ came to save US and not Himself!
My read, then, at this point in my education, is that Christ voluntarily embraced in his flesh our suffering. And the Holy Spirit was part of the healing of that weakness. Likewise it is the Spirit who ministers Christ's saving life to us. (We are "little-Christs," hense Christ-ians.)
I'm glad you brought up the Spirit, John.
That's what I appreciate in Wesley too. Also in Calvin's piety as a person, and Eucharistic theology ; but less in the denominational practice of those who follow him. | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 8/3/2004 4:39 AM (GMT -6) | | Another possibility...
Jesus could not sin but didn't know this about himself.
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 8/3/2004 4:57 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by TGB
Another possibility...
Jesus could not sin but didn't know this about himself.
Tom
How is this a possibility, based on what you know about Christ?
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Similitude
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
| Posted 8/3/2004 2:26 PM (GMT -6) | | John,
quote:
Yes, that is my understanding of this, Sahid. Also, if we keep in consideration the perfect wisdom, intelligence, and discernment God has (that would have been available to Jesus by the Holy Spirit "without measure" according to John 3:34), we can see that He would have easily seen right through any and all tempations Satan hurled his way. We see this actually was the case in his wilderness temptations--Satan was no match for Him, for he knew his Father and his Father's word.
I wonder if your point, which has been brought up before, is not the heart of the matter. Maybe the "seeing" and "knowing" is the key. If one is ABLE to do the right and fully KNOWS what the right is, it would be irrational to do the wrong - for he/she would know it was in their own best interest to DO the right regardless of how much suffering it entailed. No wonder, then, the importance of having "the mind of Christ." And what import, then, hath the phrase "the TRUTH shall set you FREE."
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 8/3/2004 2:38 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by jefscott
John,
quote:
Yes, that is my understanding of this, Sahid. Also, if we keep in consideration the perfect wisdom, intelligence, and discernment God has (that would have been available to Jesus by the Holy Spirit "without measure" according to John 3:34), we can see that He would have easily seen right through any and all tempations Satan hurled his way. We see this actually was the case in his wilderness temptations--Satan was no match for Him, for he knew his Father and his Father's word.
I wonder if your point, which has been brought up before, is not the heart of the matter. Maybe the "seeing" and "knowing" is the key. If one is ABLE to do the right and fully KNOWS what the right is, it would be irrational to do the wrong - for he/she would know it was in their own best interest to DO the right regardless of how much suffering it entailed. No wonder, then, the importance of having "the mind of Christ." And what import, then, hath the phrase "the TRUTH shall set you FREE."
Hi Jeff,
I certainly think such discernment is crucial to one's spiritual life. However, it seems to me that Satan, Adam & Eve, as well as the rest of us have sinned "with our eyes open" before, so there does seem to be more to it than just ignorance or knowledge of the righteous path to take in any given situation.
It seems to me that more fundamental to overcoming temptation is the HEART. This is why Christ said, "blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God." Notice he did not say "blessed are the perfect in knowledge," but rather "pure in heart." Or as James says, "the demons also believe." So while I certainly think knowledge of the right path to take is important, it does not seem to be the most important thing.
If one's heart (ultimate intention) is righteous, one's choices will also be righteous. As the apostle John said: "He that doeth rightesousness is righteous, just as He is righteous."
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 8/3/2004 6:21 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
quote:
Originally posted by John Earp
As to whether God knew if Jesus would sin or not, I think we need to make a clear distinction between a MORAL impossibility and a PHYSICAL impossibility. Jesus (and even the Father) have the physical ability to sin (that is it is in their power); however, it would be absolutely MORALLY impossible for God or Jesus or the Holy Spirit to do that which is against their WILL.
John-If it was impossible for Jesus to sin then how can His sufferings and temptations be comparable to ours (Heb. 2:17-18)?
A moral impossibility owes its existence to the choice of the person. It's like saying of someone whose character you know extremely well, "He could NEVER do that!" What you mean is not that he does not have the physical capability to do it, but that knowing his character as you do, you can confidently say that he would never CHOOSE to do that.
So while I do use the term, "impossibility" in a moral sense, this is a very different thing from impossibility in a physical sense, for as I noted earlier, all virtue and vice are by definition voluntary (choices).
P.S.: It seems to me that Tom's proposal on this still makes Christ's temptations a sham, for surely God the Father would have known Jesus COULD not sin, and yet the Scripture says He was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the Devil. So we have God just kinda messing with his Son's mind, making him think the temptations are real when they really aren't? What happened to God being a God of TRUTH and INTEGRITY?
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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feelinahole
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 8/3/2004 6:38 PM (GMT -6) | | | Tom: thanks for pointing the out! I had never thought of it... | | Back to Top | | |
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