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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 516
| Posted 6/28/2001 5:23 PM (GMT -6) |   | Message
Wislawa
05/05/01 6:55 PM
NEUROTHEOLOGY
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First off, Happy Cinco day Mayo (sp? I can hardly speel in english so cut me some slack for trying )
Now then, has anyone gotten a chance to read “Newsweek’s” May 7, 2001 edition? In it they have two articles on Neurotheology. I thought that it touched on similar topics as TNT and maybe RevivalTheology’s questions about the authenticity of ‘spiritual’ experiences. The first article is the cover story; it is defiantly coming from a scientific standpoint. Although they admit that Neurotheology does not discount the reality of spirit anymore than how our brain responds to apple pies discounts the reality of apple pies, it is clear from several passages that these are qualifications that they know they must make in order to be a solid piece of research but nevertheless do not put much stock in. A quote will demonstrate how it differs with regards to TNT:
“His [neurologist Vilayanur Ramachandran] preliminary results suggested that depth of religious felling, or religiosity, might depend on natural—not helmet-induced—enhancements in the electrical activity of the temporal lobes. Interestingly, this region of the brain also seems important for speech perception. One experience common to many spiritual states is hearing the voice of God. It seems to arise when you misattribute inner speech (the ‘little voice’ in your head that you know you generate yourself) to something ousted yourself. During such experiences, the brain’s Broach’s area (responsible for speech production) switches on. Most of us can tell this is our inner voice speaking. But when sensory information is restricted, as happens during meditation or prayer, people are “more likely to misattribute internally generated thoughts to an eternal source,” suggests psychologist Richard Bentall of the University of Manchester in England in the book ‘Varieties of Anomalous Experience’” (56-7).
Wislawa the deconstructionist sates: by what standard do these scientists use to detect a ‘misattributed’ inner speech as God? What criterion is used to verify this knowledge that this voice is something ‘you generate yourself? Might we this be a missattributation? Might God actually speak to us? How would a scientist be able to tell the difference?
The second article is only one-page but says a lot. I appears to be written by a believer but he does not reveal which faith he holds to. Because he usually uses Christian examples first before moving on to examples of other religions and because Christian examples are used to support several points while others on for single points it seems he may be a Christian, but who knows. Anyway he writes:
“Neurotheologians also confuse spirituality with religion. But doing the will of God—or following the dharma—involves much more than prayer and mediation. To see Christ in the person of an AIDS victim or to really love one’s enemy does not necessitate a special alteration in the circuits of the brain. Nor does the efficacy of a Eucharistic celebration depend on the collective brain waves of the congregation. In short, religion comprehends a whole range of acts and insights that acknowledge a transcendent order without requiring a transcendent experience.”
He goes on to point out that candidates for Catholic Sainthood are judged on their charity, something brain waves can’t measure (at least to the best of our knowledge) not mystical experiences. So it was overall a good pairing—these two articles that is. The first one used a form of scientific materialistic meta-naritive to explain why mystical experiences correlate to particular brain patters, the second use’s an apparently orthodox theological meta-naritive to explain the same phenomena.
So where does this leave us? There seems to be a correlation between the brain and spiritual reality. Could it all be just a figment of the brain? Could this be what RevivalTheology is talking about? It did not say if any therough comparitive studies between brain waves and different religions but it claims that Buddhists, Christians, New Age, etc. all share similar results on a biological level. Christianity, it seems as of now, is not distinct from other religions when it comes to brain waves. What does TNT have to say about that? Where does will and love and all non-brainwave stuff come in? Is will spirit and what ever is affecting our brains soul? Sound of folks.
Neurons and nanometers
—Wislawa
Posted Originally From: Open Theism Information Site
GregBoyd
05/05/01 10:53 PM
RE: NEUROTHEOLOGY
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Wislawa,
Great Question. Liked your comments.
Seems to me that "neurotheology," at least as it was depicted in Newsweek, is about as irrelevant to everything religiously important as anything could be. From brain scans neuro-scientists detect that the neuro-network of the brain fires in a certain pattern when people have "religious" experiences -- whether they be Christian, Buddhist, or even irreligious (viz. people who experience the "oneness" of things, though they don't term it God).
This leaves totally open whether or not a transcendent reality exists which creates these neuronets, or whether the neuronets are creating the supposed transcendent reality. It basically only proves that when some people concentrate in certain ways they experience a certain "oneness" with things. This may (may) be nothing more than a peculiar (though usually pleasant) phenomenon of the brain -- in principle no different than the "buzz" one gets from standing up too quick, having three classes of wine, or being sleep depraved.
The article does drive home Revival Theology's point that the truthfulness of one's experience can't be rooted in the experience itself. It must be "grounded" in reason. But heh, we already knew this. Paul said if an angel of light appears to us (viz... you are having one heck of a great neuronet "buzz"!) and yet communicates a message that contradicts the Word, let that angel (or neuronet of an angel) be Anathama (viz. "go to hell").
Neuro-Doc
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Kassiopeia
05/05/01 11:13 PM
RE: NEUROTHEOLOGY
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Wislaw,
Ahh! me gusta Cinco de Mayo tambien!
Two considerations to your many questions.
Brain-spiritual correlations cannot be a figment of the brain unless of course the self is also a figment of the brain. Employees of Lobe Stimulus Inc. have not yet found a lobe to stimulate, which activates a body’s recognition of the self. So unless one plans on denying that there is a self to every body (in some cases there seem to be multiple selves per one body) this cerebral-spiritual interaction must be for real.
Concerning the comparative studies between Buddhists, Christians and New Agers and brainwave patterns while in meditation. I am not surprised or disturbed by the results. Simply by virtue of the fact that someone becomes a Christian does not suggest that their composition changes—spiritual, physical or otherwise. In meditation, if the subject is in some way connected to a spirit being (where communications are exchanged between the two)—for example, God the creator, then it would be no different (substantially) than if the subject were connected to a non-God being, who is also of spirit composition. So for a Christian—no different organs or lobes would be used to communicate to the devil or to God.
To find a human parallel. When I speak to a Buddhist v.s. to a Christian, compositionally nothing changes. I use my mouth and tongue and my brain forms my words before I speak them.
Kassi
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
might-be-don
05/08/01 7:22 AM
RE: RE: NEUROTHEOLOGY
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Kassiopeia says:
"I use my mouth and tongue and my brain forms my words before I speak them."
Wow! How did you work that out. I've been trying to get that to work for years.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Kassiopeia
05/08/01 2:22 PM
RE: RE: RE: NEUROTHEOLOGY
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Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
ModesofThought
05/08/01 2:25 PM
RE: RE: RE: RE: NEUROTHEOLOGY
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Drawn a blank?
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Kassiopeia
05/08/01 2:31 PM
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: NEUROTHEOLOGY
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Demonstrating how my brain operates.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
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