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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/24/2004 5:38 PM (GMT -6) |   | Speculating about God is foolish for us (people) who don't fathom themselves even. What is proper to diety is different from what is proper to economy. We should not expect them to be the same thing. God's condesension is not change. He reached down to us to pull us up; not to stay 'down here' with us. He took on our changes, all the while not becoming changable -- that is all our changes (like death) did not happen to him in an 'out-of-control' event. He took our death willingly upon himself. But dying, letting his body experience the ultimate end of our deteriorating fallenness, he conquered death -- subjecting death to life. And for us transfiguring the very meaning of death from an end into a beginning -- the resurrection.
We cannot fathom ourselves. And we cannot fathom God. But we can fathom the new birth that is within us by the Spirit, because we can experience it. We can know what is revealed to us.
And THAT is not about chance, but election. And it is about time-transfigured.
The most important day on the calendar is the "eighth day." The day of resurrection, rebirth, pleroma, the brginning of the kingdom.
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God_Is_Truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2003
Total Posts : 33
| Posted 7/24/2004 7:49 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Lee Merrill
Ecclesiastes 9:11 I have seen something else under the sun: The race is not to the swift or the battle to the strong, nor does food come to the wise or wealth to the brilliant or favor to the learned; but time and chance happen to them all.
If God only estimates the future, then don't time and chance happen to him, too? Then someone less strong or less wise than God can nevertheless come out better, and we should sometimes bet on the dark horse, and not always depend on God...
Blessings,
Lee
IMO this verse does not apply to God, but only to those with limited power and knowledge. | | Back to Top | | |
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feelinahole
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 7/24/2004 8:48 PM (GMT -6) | | | And considering it was the preacher's view of life, it may not be what is actually true of life, but rather how the preacher saw it. | | Back to Top | | |
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edcaina
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 12
| Posted 7/25/2004 1:04 AM (GMT -6) | | | It's outright clear that the writer did not have in mind God when he penned that. So why assume that "time and chance happen to him, too" based on the text? | | Back to Top | | |
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 7/25/2004 10:32 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi everyone,
quote:
POW: Speculating about God is foolish for us (people) who don't fathom themselves even.
I think I'm taking my question from Scripture here, though, not speculating. I agree that we shouldn't think God is undependable. That's kind of my point.
quote:
GIT: ... this verse does not apply to God ...
Ed: ... the writer did not have in mind God ...
Certainly he did not! But my question is "Why doesn't this verse apply to God, according to the OV?" That is what I am asking...
quote:
FIH: ... considering it was the preacher's view of life, it may not be what is actually true of life, but rather how the preacher saw it.
Well, it's true, though, according to the OV. I don't believe in bad luck myself, I believe all is controlled by God, for a good purpose, but I don't think the OV can take that route.
So why does this verse not apply to God, according to the Open View?
If it does apply, doesn't that mean we can reasonably choose other sources of strength and wisdom, and that we cannot always depend on God?
Blessings,
Lee
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"Even now we seem to have dim glimpses into regions
from which we receive no word to bring away" (George MacDonald) | | Back to Top | | |
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edcaina
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 12
| Posted 7/25/2004 4:49 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Lee Merrill
Certainly he did not! But my question is "Why doesn't this verse apply to God, according to the OV?" That is what I am asking...
Because the writier DID NOT WRITE IT for God to apply it to himself!  | | Back to Top | | |
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 7/26/2004 2:30 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by edcaina
quote:
Originally posted by Lee Merrill
Certainly he did not! But my question is "Why doesn't this verse apply to God, according to the OV?" That is what I am asking...
Because the writier DID NOT WRITE IT for God to apply it to himself!
Maybe Lee thinks that God eats food as well? 
"nor does food come to the wise"
Lee, does God eat only kosher dill pickles?
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God_Is_Truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2003
Total Posts : 33
| Posted 7/26/2004 7:10 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Lee Merrill
quote:
GIT: ... this verse does not apply to God ...
Ed: ... the writer did not have in mind God ...
Certainly he did not! But my question is "Why doesn't this verse apply to God, according to the OV?" That is what I am asking...
why wouldn't it apply according to your view? | | Back to Top | | |
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Bobber
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 199
| Posted 7/26/2004 7:37 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Maybe Lee thinks that God eats food as well?
Well sure he does. Don't you know that Jesus ate of the loaves and fish with the rest of the disciples? Don't you believe that Jesus was God? | | Back to Top | | |
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 7/26/2004 7:56 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by God_Is_Truth
quote:
Originally posted by Lee Merrill
quote:
GIT: ... this verse does not apply to God ...
Ed: ... the writer did not have in mind God ...
Certainly he did not! But my question is "Why doesn't this verse apply to God, according to the OV?" That is what I am asking...
why wouldn't it apply according to your view?
Verse 12 shows that verse 11 is talking about men, not God:
"12 Moreover, man does not know his time: like fish caught in a treacherous net and birds trapped in a snare, so the sons of men are ensnared at an evil time when it suddenly falls on them."
Whenever a calvinist quotes a fraction of a piece of a verse like they always do, just read the context around that fraction of a piece and you'll see they're wrong.
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 7/26/2004 3:48 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Lee: ... my question is "Why doesn't this verse apply to God, according to the OV?"
GIT: why wouldn't it apply according to your view?
I don't believe chance happens to God, he knows the outcome, and he is strongest and fastest and is always in control, thus he always wins the race...
quote:
Verse 12 shows that verse 11 is talking about men, not God:
"12 Moreover, man does not know his time: like fish caught in a treacherous net and birds trapped in a snare, so the sons of men are ensnared at an evil time when it suddenly falls on them."
SOC: ... just read the context around that fraction of a piece and you'll see they're wrong.
Verse 12 is an extra thought:
Ecclesiastes 9:12 Moreover...
Not simply a reiteration of verse 11. We know swift men don't lose races, and strong men lose battles, only because something they did not expect happens to them. Some of verse 11 applies to God, according to the OV, that is my point here. I do agree (I did agree) that not all even of verse 11 applies to God, according to the OV.
But do you not hold that time and chance happen to God?
And do you not hold that God is strong?
Then why does Solomon's conclusion in this verse not apply to God, according to the Open View?
Blessings,
Lee
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"Even now we seem to have dim glimpses into regions
from which we receive no word to bring away" (George MacDonald) | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/26/2004 4:30 PM (GMT -6) | | Lee, look at the outline structure of Ecclessiastus. Then look at where this passage fits, and what it is contributing to the whole intnetional format. Then fit the verse within that.
Its not a verse of modern physics of mathematics. It means to say the same thing as the verses around it. That's the poetic style.
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feelinahole
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 7/26/2004 7:10 PM (GMT -6) | | | Lee doesn't like when he gets caught trying to set a trap... | | Back to Top | | |
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 7/27/2004 1:35 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Sisters of Cain:Verse 12 shows that verse 11 is talking about men, not God:
"12 Moreover, man does not know his time: like fish caught in a treacherous net and birds trapped in a snare, so the sons of men are ensnared at an evil time when it suddenly falls on them."
quote:
Lee:Verse 12 is an extra thought:
Ecclesiastes 9:12 Moreover...
Not simply a reiteration of verse 11.
from the dictionary:
quote:
\More*o"ver\, adv. [More + over.]
Beyond what has been said; further; besides; in addition;
furthermore; also; likewise.
Moreover means "more" of the topic that's being discussed.
Verse 12 adds additional information about the topic verse 11 was discussing, men.
Now get yourself to an ESL class. 
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 7/27/2004 4:13 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi everyone,
quote:
Lee:Verse 12 is an extra thought:
Ecclesiastes 9:12 Moreover...
Not simply a reiteration of verse 11.
\More*o"ver\, adv. [More + over.]
Beyond what has been said; further; besides; in addition;
furthermore; also; likewise.
Moreover means "more" of the topic that's being discussed.
Verse 12 adds additional information about the topic verse 11 was discussing, men.
That's just my point! It's adding to what was stated before, an extra thought, not a reiteration. Not everyone who loses a race loses because something happened they didn't plan for, that they didn't expect. This is very plain.
And being poetical here doesn't make this only poetical, Solomon was certainly making a statement about life here.
I am trying to catch people! Yes, I am. I do have some responses prepared, if people will only address themselves to the question.
This actually contains standard Open View teaching:
1) God is strong.
2) Time and chance happen to God.
So why is it that the conclusion does not apply as well?
The battle is not to the strong...
That's Open View teaching as well! The Warfare Worldview...
Blessings,
Lee
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"Even now we seem to have dim glimpses into regions
from which we receive no word to bring away" (George MacDonald) | | Back to Top | | |
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 7/28/2004 1:54 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
quote:
\More*o"ver\, adv. [More + over.]
Beyond what has been said; further; besides; in addition;
furthermore; also; likewise.
Moreover means "more" of the topic that's being discussed.
Verse 12 adds additional information about the topic verse 11 was discussing, men.
That's just my point! It's adding to what was stated before, an extra thought
An additional thought about the same topic, men.
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 7/29/2004 2:05 AM (GMT -6) | | Concerning men, as the author of Ecclesiastes is referring to, the battle is not always to the strong.
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 7/29/2004 4:26 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi SOC,
quote:
Concerning men, as the author of Ecclesiastes is referring to, the battle is not always to the strong.
What about horses, doesn't this apply to horse races, too? Not to mention Mr. Aesop, and "The tortoise and the hare."
Why can't the author have had God in mind, too, if he was an Open Theist?
And even if he didn't, why doesn't this verse apply to God, according to the Open View? That is my main question...
Blessings,
Lee
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"Even now we seem to have dim glimpses into regions
from which we receive no word to bring away" (George MacDonald) | | Back to Top | | |
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cbost6421
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 65
| Posted 8/8/2004 8:47 AM (GMT -6) | | Hey Y'all,
Sorry I've been away for a while! I've been reading instead of discussing. Just haven't felt like it.
Anyway the Fact that "time and chance" happens to them all, in my opinion, actually gives more credit to the open view. The verse in question is stating the fact that the best prepared for any given goal is not always the one who achieves such a goal. He is doing this in human terms with human situations.
Time and chance don't happen to God, Sequence and free-agency do. God created the time in which we live, but He has his own sequence. Pinnock says that time is something that comes from his very nature.
Time is not something that "happens" to GOd but is rather caused by GOd. As a full-fledged Open Viewer, I believe God enters the time that He causes, in order to be relational and loving towards us.
Free-agency, not chance, happens to GOd. IN order to be relational, GOd endowed us with free-agency. things that we freely do affect God in ways we humans don't fully understand. I don't do things by chance, I do them by choice. God has as much influence on that choice as anything else, so things don't happen to him "by chance"
God BLess,
Chuck
stu.westga.edu/~cbost1/openviewtheism.html
"those who pray truly are theologians and those who are theologians pray truly"
-Evagrios The Solidary | | Back to Top | | |
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 8/8/2004 10:51 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi Chuck,
quote:
Chuck: Time and chance don't happen to God, Sequence and free-agency do. God created the time in which we live, but He has his own sequence. Pinnock says that time is something that comes from his very nature.
I don't think the writer in Ecclesiastes was saying that people experience time, though, I think "time and chance" is a way of saying "you never know for sure what is going to happen."
"The Teacher gives an interesting example, perhaps from his own experience. Time and chance struck a peaceful city when a powerful king came against it. Time and chance also ensured that the battle was not won by the strong (v. 11) but by a poor man…" (Expositor's Bible Commentary)
quote:
Chuck: Free-agency, not chance, happens to God. … I don't do things by chance, I do them by choice.
But doesn't God estimate choices, according to the OV? "God knew Peter so well, he predicted that Peter would deny him, etc." So this seems to me to be the same as chance, if God does not know the future for sure.
So doesn't my conclusion stand? Not everyone roots for the best football team, and sometimes they are the ones that get to celebrate…
Blessings,
Lee
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"Even now we seem to have dim glimpses into regions
from which we receive no word to bring away" (George MacDonald) | | Back to Top | | |
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