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| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > The raging debate continues here... > yet more unfulfilled and changed prophecies | Forum Quick Jump
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rsirkel
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 183
| Posted 8/3/2004 7:47 AM (GMT -6) |   | POW
Please, Timothy George writes like a politian for the Baptists (not that there is anything wrong with it, (Seinfeld episode XXX). He does know how to turn a phrase in order to incite an emotional response though. I did read the articles and they had the same old twists, political in nature. So if you can't beat them with scripture, shift the authority to the ancient church tradition. After all they were interpreting the bible too literally. Then if that doesn't work try some "what if" scenarios, that can always get the attention off the issue.
Peace
Ron
Mark
And then if that doesn't work, deny the ministry of the Holy Spirit today. Be a fundamentalist and believe the living God can only speak with an ancient text. Talk about a desizing (made that word up) God down to man's ideas of what a sovereign God can do! More later.
Peace
Ron
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 8/3/2004 8:14 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by rsirkel
POW
Please, Timothy George writes like a politian for the Baptists (not that there is anything wrong with it, (Seinfeld episode XXX). He does know how to turn a phrase in order to incite an emotional response though. I did read the articles and they had the same old twists, political in nature. So if you can't beat them with scripture, shift the authority to the ancient church tradition. After all they were interpreting the bible too literally. Then if that doesn't work try some "what if" scenarios, that can always get the attention off the issue.
Peace
Ron
Ron, address that to Dr. George; not me.
And you can certainly have your opinion of him, and what he wrote, and how. And I and anyone else can also have ours--whatever they may be.
It is my opinion of what you just wrote, however, that you did not well represent what George said; and I think that because I know he was much more fair and balanced than your comments give impression to me of. I wonder, then, whether you just didn't like his point of view?
Allow me my views; and I will certainly allow you yours, regardless.
I appreciated that in BOTH links there was historical and philosphical perspective -- and these always help in framing issues.
And thanks for clicking the LINK. I hope other people do to.
Pax,
PoW | | Back to Top | | |
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rsirkel
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 183
| Posted 8/3/2004 10:43 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Posted - 08/03/2004 : 1:14:40 PM
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quote:
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Originally posted by rsirkel
POW
Please, Timothy George writes like a politian for the Baptists (not that there is anything wrong with it, (Seinfeld episode XXX). He does know how to turn a phrase in order to incite an emotional response though. I did read the articles and they had the same old twists, political in nature. So if you can't beat them with scripture, shift the authority to the ancient church tradition. After all they were interpreting the bible too literally. Then if that doesn't work try some "what if" scenarios, that can always get the attention off the issue.
Peace
Ron
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Ron, address that to Dr. George; not me.
Ron
Correction - To Dr. George. Sorry POW, thought you wanted a response to the link.
quote:
It is my opinion of what you just wrote, however, that you did not well represent what George said; and I think that because I know he was much more fair and balanced than your comments give impression to me of. I wonder, then, whether you just didn't like his point of view?
Allow me my views; and I will certainly allow you yours, regardless.
Ron
True, after having read what he said, I did not like his point of view. I was not trying to be fair and balanced in my post but I would sit down at the same table of fellowship with him because he worships the same God I do.
Fair enough, you have your views and I have mine. Do you not want me to post my views in response to yours? It is difficult to disassociate from the one who posts and dialogue with the absent party and if the person you quote is dead? (Spen, don't start up with me now.)
Sorry if I touched a nerve in my post.
Peace
Ron | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 8/3/2004 11:20 AM (GMT -6) | | Sorry for being picky, Ron.
I guess that for me it would be interesting to see which parts you felt that way about, and how you'd do it different.
Up-2-U. | | Back to Top | | |
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rsirkel
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 183
| Posted 8/3/2004 4:10 PM (GMT -6) | | Mark
quote:
"How can man know God?"
A lost person can find no meaning in the Bible relative to his situation or compatible with his thinking. To the one who has never experienced the grace of God in salvation the Bible is foolishness.
Ron
Right the carnal mind does not understand the things of God. That is why the preacher should preach the gospel with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven. Jesus saves.
Have you studied or read any open view books?
God knows all things. Some things are settled and will eventually happen and some things are unsettled and might or might not happen. God knows both.
Mark
quote:
What you received during prayer can be considered un-biblical—truth must issue from the Word of God. How is one to know the things he receives is from the Holy Spirit or of another spirit, or of his own mind? I am not belittling your experience only questioning your conclusion, or attained understanding. What criteria do you use to know for certain some knowledge received is of God?
Ron
John 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
John 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my [sheep], and am known of mine.
John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
1 Corinthians 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
1 Corinthians 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
1 Corinthians 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
1 Corinthians 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another [divers] kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
1 Corinthians 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
1 Corinthians 14:36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?
1 Corinthians 14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
1 Corinthians 14:38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
1 Corinthians 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
Mark
quote:
To me OV is just a way to define God in the image (imagination) of man. If the Church has been wrong for two centuries what makes us now to know the truth? Either truth began with the Church at her birth (Acts) or it has never known the truth about God in the first place.
Ron
Jesus is the way, truth, and the life. Substitutes for the living God is idolatry. OV does not change the image of God, Jesus is the express image of the invisible God.
Ontology is the study of what there is, an inventory of what exists. I claim the future does not exist. Knowing this is congruent with, moral responsibility, prayer, reward and punishment, and the faithfulness of God revealed in the resurrection of Jesus and that gives me hope for the future.
Peace
Ron
PS
Mark
quote:
The finite cannot comprehend the infinite outside of illumination by the Holy Spirit of God's Word;
Ron
Are you saying you believe the written word of God is the Holy Spirit?
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Mark C.
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 15
| Posted 8/4/2004 7:24 AM (GMT -6) | | Hey Ron,
You asked,..
"And then if that doesn't work, deny the ministry of the Holy Spirit today..."
I did not understand what you meant by "if that doesn't work". If "what" doesn't work? I do not deny the present operation or ministry of the Spirit of God today. Could you expound on your statement a little more? Do you mean if faith in Baptism not working? I'm lost here.
You asked, "Have you studied or read any open view books?". No, only the statement made concerning it, as you gave.
There are two points many (most?) have difficulty with with OVT: (1) That created, unholy, finite man (lost or saved) can assume to know absolutely (i.e. have absolute knowledge) that our Uncreated Infinite Holy GOD has limited knowledge. To me and most fundamental Bible Believers this is a contradiction of Scripture and blaspheme [to bring God down to man's level]. Is it possible for us to know absolutely anything about God due to our being (a)created, therefore finite, (b)sinners, (c)flesh, and (d)completely dependent upon God for all knowledge relating to HIM? As I understand the position of OVT, it claims that created man does possess the ability to aquire Absolute Knowledge about Uncreated God. Is this a correct assesment or summation based upon a reasonable deduction concerning OVT?
And (2)How is it possible (conceived in the mind of created man) that our Uncreated Eternal Infinite Holy God Who created every thing, including the brain of man, and time and space, not to possess absolute knowledge of all things?
These TWO points seem to be unimportant to the theory of OVT; as if they need not be considered or taken into account; irrelevant. And it is precisely these two things that are the stumbling block to those of us who believe OVT is heresy. I have not read any thing that refutes OVT, I was made aware of it by a pastor only one month or so ago. These two questions and the argument against Open View I have given are what I personally find disturbing. Yet I am confident this is a question most Christians would ask.
And, “No”, I do not think the written Word of God is the Holy Spirit. And your quotes were adequate. What I really was asking was about the method. What I meant to imply is that God illumines His Word by avenue of the written Word--and by His Spirit--and not outside of it. Those who have declared some outside illumination are those like Joe Smith , Judge Rutherford, and the like, whose “revelations” are anti-(counterfeit, substitute) Scripture, as you know.
Mark | | Back to Top | | |
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rsirkel
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 183
| Posted 8/4/2004 8:15 AM (GMT -6) | | Mark
quote:
There are two points many (most?) have difficulty with with OVT: (1) That created, unholy, finite man (lost or saved) can assume to know absolutely ,i.e. absolute knowledge, that our Uncreated Infinite Holy GOD has limited knowledge. To me and most fundamental Bible Believers this is a contradiction of Scripture and blaspheme [to bring God down to man's level].
Ron
If your belief is correct then how do you absolutely know God is uncreated and infinite? If finite man cannot assume to have absolute knowledge of God.
No OV person I know of says God has limited knowledge. God knows everything. I have said this repeatedly. You are bringing the charge of blasphemy. I asked you to provide a quote in context of an OV person who denies God's attributes as revealed in scripture. Don't you think you are opening yourself up to judgement yourself?
Mark
quote:
As I understand the position of OVT, it claims that created man does possess the ability to aquire Absolute Knowledge about Uncreated God. Is this a correct assesment or summation based upon a reasonable deduction concerning OVT?
Ron
No. Provide a quote. I don't know what you are talking about. Explain what you mean by absolute knowledge.
Mark
quote:
And (2)How is it possible (conceived in the mind of created man) that our Uncreated Eternal Infinite Holy God Who created every thing, including the brain of man, and time and space, not to possess absolute knowledge of all things?
Ron
God does possess knowledge of all things.
Mark
quote:
These TWO points seem to be unimportant to the theory of OVT;
Ron
You confess you haven't read anything about the open view how can you comment on the theory of OVT? www.gregboyd.org/gbfront/index.asp?PageID=507
Read the information on this site about the open view, if you want to inform yourself more.
Mark
quote:
These two questions and the argument against Open View I have given are what I personally find disturbing. Yet I am confident this is a question most Christians would ask.
Ron
With all due respect, your confidence is a bit premature. Do your homework first.
Mark
quote:
What I meant to imply is that God illumines His Word by avenue of the written Word--and by His Spirit--and not outside of it.
Ron
I respectfully disagree. Your statement is unbiblical and does not agree with the operations of the Holy Spirit as recorded in the bible you claim is your rule. Your method limits God.
My comments "if that doesn't work" was a continuation of my comments to Dr. George's ability to turn a phrase in order to stay politically correct among his readers. The point of denying the ministry of the Holy Spirit would in my opinion apply to your method of limiting him to only the text of scripture to teach you.
Mark, what do you make on your lathe? I was a machinist for 3 years on a cnc surface grinder. We built roll forming equipment.
Peace
Ron
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Laika
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 8/4/2004 5:12 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Mark C.
To me OV is just a way to define God in the image (imagination) of man.
Genesis 1:26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."
27 God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
Genesis 5:1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day when God created man, He made him in the likeness of God.
Genesis 9:6 "Whoever sheds man's blood,
By man his blood shall be shed,
For in the image of God
He made man.
James 3:9 With it we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in the likeness of God;
1 Corinthians 11:7 For a man ought not to have his head covered, since he is the image and glory of God;
inside you the time moves and she don't fade
the ghost in you she don't fade | | Back to Top | | |
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 8/5/2004 1:46 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
SOC- Is it possible that God will fulfill these prophecies 100% during the millenial reign of Christ?
All the prophecies? That'd be kind of disingenuous. Anyone can make prophecies that will be "fulfilled" at the end of the days.
Woe unto you Des Moines, Iowa, for you will be "no more". Fulfillment? 2 Peter 3
Nebuchadnezzar is dead, his chance to destroy Tyre and fulfill the prophecy of him destroying Tyre is long gone.
When God said He would go before Joshua and remove ALL the tribes in the land, it was generally believed He would go before Joshua and remove ALL the tribes from the land. Joshua is long dead and some of those people are STILL in the land.
Will Hezekiah lose those fifteen years "in the future" in order to fulfill that prophecy?
Check out atheist web sites and see the problems they have with unfulfilled prophecy and the calvinist view of God. They don't buy the lame answers that have been presented here.
さようなら | | Back to Top | | |
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Mark C.
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 15
| Posted 8/5/2004 8:34 AM (GMT -6) | | Hey Ron,
Sorry if I am coming across as too abrasive in my wording. I’m trying to put my thoughts on a personal level, that is, how I understand what the issue is, without being offensive to those who are convinced of something different. I am trying not to stir up any ones ire in the process.
I work at a company that manufactures commercial washing and dry cleaning machines, so our work is production-type, you know, doing basically the same thing all day, every day. I operate two Okuma Howa vertical lathes side by side turning primarily cast iron—parts weighing from 8 to 70 pounds. We aren’t expected to know the programming aspect of the machines so in that area I’m lacking—maybe some day I can learn that part instead of turning out parts exclusively. I have done this for almost seven years. I glad to know we have this in common, and especially that we are one in our Living Savior, the Lord Jesus! Real cool.
I have read what Mr. Boyd wrote somewhere on the www, some at the home page of this forum. I know you didn’t mean for the question of how we can know God is infinite to be answered. This is a quote from an article EXAMINING THE OPEN VIEW OF GOD by Rick Wade: “Boyd asks the question: "Does God ever change His mind?" He believes God does, not only because of a change of heart and behavior on the part of people, but because God doesn't know everything that is going to happen in the future.”. Continuing…“Second, Boyd believes that complete foreknowledge is incompatible with free will. If the future is settled in God's mind, then it is fixed, and our freedom is only apparent.”. And…"The future is settled to whatever extent the sovereign Creator decides to settle it," says Boyd.” From a review of God of the Possible: A Biblical Introduction to the Open View of God. Mr. Wade states, “Open theists thus go further than Arminians who affirm that God didn't foreordain everything; they say He doesn't even know everything that will happen in the future.”
What I mean by Absolute Knowledge in reference to man’s ability is that the creature cannot gain, nor possess, absolute knowledge—knowledge that is full to the fullest without any further possibility to know more—because he is created. In another way, man by nature of creation must acquire and gain by increments Knowledge, our kind of knowledge is a cause and effect principle--learned. This is just the opposite with the Uncreated Absolute knowledge of God. This is a principle of the creature, and one of the Uncreated. But, with the question of “how can man know God” there is another principle that is coupled with nature’s “cause and effect”, that being, God has provided a Way to know Him through revelation, or illumination. The two must BE in order for a man (a general term) to know God. Cause and effect principle is sin and it’s law, Revelation’s principle is John 3:16 (the gospel in a nutshell). Man’s way of knowing is not God’s way of knowing—by increments.
As to God revealing Him self to us by His written Word—we have no other way of knowing if a revelation or an illumination is of God or of some other source, such as Paul declared to the Thessalonians (2 Th. 2:1-3a). God through His Holy Spirit opens (illumines) the written Word to us—so that we have confidence the illumination is of God and not by another spirit (Gal. 1:6-9; 3:1a), or of our own spirit or mind. I know you know this due the passages of Scripture you recently gave abundantly. Our source for knowing a vision or a prophecy or enlightenment is knowing the written Word and if it squares. Out side sources will contradict the written Word every time, or twist it some how.
Back later, got to turn some cast—good parts fast as possible.
Mark | | Back to Top | | |
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rsirkel
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 183
| Posted 8/5/2004 4:38 PM (GMT -6) | | Mark
quote:
A Biblical Introduction to the Open View of God. Mr. Wade states, “Open theists thus go further than Arminians who affirm that God didn't foreordain everything; they say He doesn't even know everything that will happen in the future.”
Ron
I've quieted down. It is amazing how on this discussion board one can go back and read a post the second time and get a different angle on what the poster meant.
Look a the above phrase "He doesn't even know everything that will happen in the future". It is a takeoff from the charge we are messing with the omniscience of God and that our God is not the God of the bible but a lesser god. You take the bible as your rule of faith and practice, right.
quote:
Genesis 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man [was] great in the earth, and [that] every imagination of the thoughts of his heart [was] only evil continually.
Genesis 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
Genesis 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
Are the words repented and it grieved him at his heart words that are true or are they just written that way because man can't understand anything about God. If that is the case where do you distinguish in the scripture revelation of man and God what words have true meaning as written. Some scripture are obvious metaphors for something else. But this example and the examples used all throughout the writings of Boyd and others are there to show us there is scriptural evidence for what they say. The scriptures we all believe are truth are saying God is grieved at heart because of man. Is God really grieved at heart because of the condition of man? Why would he be grieved or repent if he already knew from before the creation everything that was to happen exhaustively by foreknowledge. Get this, before he created. The classical view of God's foreknowledge says he knew before he created. All the horrors of world history, personal suffering, barbaric acts, yet he chose to create anyway. The classical definition of omniscience would include all of this past, present, and future. Remember, you are viewing the classical understanding of omniscience through the lens of a definition, a speculative philosophical definition of what God's omniscience means. Therefore you have to make that definition stick throughout the bible and world history. Upon examination of the ground of your beliefs about God, do they rest upon a definition of omniscience past down through history or does your trust and belief have the scripture revelation as their ground. Once you clearly see the difference you will be able to distinguish between a scriptural statement about the attributes of God and those that are based upon man's definition of what a God should be like. This is hard for people to grasp, the ground of their belief in omniscience is a definition of what speculative man thought God is like. I am talking about the classical definition of omniscience not that the word doesn't mean all knowing. What does the all knowing consist of in the classical definition? It is like the word earth or our planet for example. For centuries the church believed the earth was flat. You say earth, they picture flat. Gallileo presented a round earth. He was rejected. Omniscience can have the same reaction in peoples mind, flat or round just like if one heard the word earth back then, one would see flat, today we see round. When I read omniscience or all knowing, I understand God knowing past, present, and unfolding from the present, some settled events and some things that might or might not happen due to the openess of the future (there is not a parallel future in existance along with now, it doesn't exist) and contingent nature of free will, ect. God knows all of this and is not caught off guard about anything. Using the flat round earth analogy I say the future does not exist. Flat earthers would see a fixed determined future for themselves which makes for a dreadful present for many.
Mark
quote:
As to God revealing Him self to us by His written Word—we have no other way of knowing if a revelation or an illumination is of God or of some other source, such as Paul declared to the Thessalonians (2 Th. 2:1-3a). God through His Holy Spirit opens (illumines) the written Word to us—so that we have confidence the illumination is of God and not by another spirit (Gal. 1:6-9; 3:1a), or of our own spirit or mind. I know you know this due the passages of Scripture you recently gave abundantly. Our source for knowing a vision or a prophecy or enlightenment is knowing the written Word and if it squares.
Ron
I agree, are you applying this principle to everything you have been taught and check to see what scriptural evidence the open view is using?
Peace
Ron | | Back to Top | | |
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 8/6/2004 2:03 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
I was referring to the prophecies you have as the first post of this subject.
Then my prophecy about Des Moines is as good and worthwhile as God's prophecy about Damascus.
Proof that I have exhaustive foreknowlege as well.
By the way, it's "God declares the end from the beginning". Like an umpire declares the end of the game from the beginning. Do umpires have exhaustive foreknowlege too?
Isaiah 46:
NASB
10 Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things which have not been done,
Saying, 'My purpose will be established,
And I will accomplish all My good pleasure';
KJV
10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
ESV
10 declaring the end from the beginning
and from ancient times things not yet done,
saying, 'My counsel shall stand,
and I will accomplish all my purpose,'
AMP
10 Declaring the end and the result from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure and purpose,
ASV
10 declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not yet done; saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure;
If God is just viewing the future and it's already accomplished, why does He use all those future tense verbs? "will do", "will be", "will accomplish"
When God states that He will accomplish His plans, why do you think that means God will accomplish everyone else's plans as well? Why would He specify "His" if He meant everyone?
All this shows is that He will determine what He will do.
Anyways, the waters of the Nile haven't dried up and Damascus and Des Moines are still prosperous and growing cities.
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 8/6/2004 5:45 AM (GMT -6) | | Isaiah 17:1
The oracle concerning Damascus.
"Behold, Damascus is about to be removed from being a city
And will become a fallen ruin."
I guess "removed from being a city" means different things to different people.
What if God had wanted to communicate that Damascus would, for example, be removed from being a city? What would He have said instead?
If "removed from being a city" is fulfilled by Damascus remaining a city, what would "remain a city" be fulfilled by?
If you see the opposite of what I say, the prophecy is fulfilled.
AND if you see the same as what I say, the prophecy is fulfilled.
Kind of makes prophecy meaningless.
"Declaring the end from the beginning", what does that mean to you?
That God has declared EVERYTHING?
If so, where's His declaration about who would win the 1969 World Series?
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 8/6/2004 6:59 PM (GMT -6) | |
If God is just viewing the future and it's already accomplished, why does He use all those future tense verbs? "will do", "will be", "will accomplish"
When God states that He will accomplish His plans, why do you think that means God will accomplish everyone else's plans as well? Why would He specify "His" if He meant everyone?
Because His plan includes everyone. When God declared He wanted to create man in His likeness and image, and then created Adam, that was not the finished product. God is forming all mankind to His image. The redemptive process is a part of His plan for His creation to form mankind into His image. We see the process in 1 Cor. 15:45-49...
"If there is a soulish body, there is a spiritual also. Thus it is written also, the first man, Adam, became a living soul; the last Adam a vivifying spirit. But not first the spiritual, but the soulish, thereupon the spiritual. The first man was out of the earth, soilish; the second Man is the Lord out of heaven. Such as the soulish one is, such are those also who are soulish, and such as the Celestial One, such are those also who are celestials. And according as we wear the image of the soilish, we should be wearing the image also of the Celestial."
Adam is the beginning and Christ is the finished product. Mankind begins in the flesh and God will take them through the redemptive process and in Christ (1 Cor. 15:22) will form them into His image. God's plan; God's will; God's purpose for all of us!
Lock
His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. | | Back to Top | | |
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Similitude
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
| Posted 8/7/2004 4:02 AM (GMT -6) | | Mark,
quote:
If OV-ism is true, then it would be illogical for God to be God of gods, for both would have the same (supposed) lack of knowledge. In order for the God of the Bible to be The God of gods, He must be infinitly greater [however, "greater" is impossible with the Infinite] than all the gods, including man.
I don't see why this must be true biblically or logically.
quote:
Why would one decide to believe in Open View unless there were some conflict between themselves and the Bible? What pursuaded you to embrace OV-ism?
As I matured, I reflected and read on how it is that we know anything. I came to the conclusion that if our intuitions are invalid, no rational thought is trustworthy. Lewis said, "If nothing is obvious, nothing can be proved." Thus, I assume my intuitions of space, time, being, relation, causality, finality, etc. must be accepted as true and used in hermeneutics. That leads inevitably, in my opinion thus far, to the OV.
I find that non-OV'ers tend to be very comfortable questioning their own intuition and retreating to mystery. I don't see how we can have a hermeneutical approach that produces any confidence from that position - much less have any common ground to argue with one another from.
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rsirkel
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 183
| Posted 8/7/2004 6:06 AM (GMT -6) | | jefscott
quote:
I find that non-OV'ers tend to be very comfortable questioning their own intuition and retreating to mystery. I don't see how we can have a hermeneutical approach that produces any confidence from that position - much less have any common ground to argue with one another from.
Ron
Mark has decided to leave the discussion due to time constraints. He e-mailed a courteous notice to me. I am intrigued with your statement about trusting your intuition and your observation the hermeneutical approach does not produce confidence or a common ground for discussion. This would be an interesting topic for discussion.
Peace
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