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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 8/3/2004 6:32 PM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
Originally posted by jefscott
Lock,
quote:
Eccl. 1:13(b), "This sore travial hath God given to the sons of man to be exercised therewith."
"sore travial" is a translation of the hebrew word ra, which should be translated evil.
"exercised therewith", or otherwise to humble
Thus God uses the evil in the world (which usually brings suffering) to humble mankind.
Are you saying that by thus humbling the non-elect it prepares them for eternal life or is somehow related to their salvation?
Jefscott-
I am only declaring what God has already declared in the scriptures. I want to start by saying I am not an Univesalist/Unitarian because they do not believe in the judgments of God (which are clearly laid out in scripture) and they do not see the necessity of the cross. I believe what the bible says...
John 1:29 "Lo! The Lamb of God that is taking away the sins of the world!"
Colossians 1:20 (b) "and through Him [Jesus] to reconcile all to Him [the Father], making peace through the blood of His cross, through Him, whether those on earth or those in the heavens."
2 Corinthians 5:19 "God was in Christ, reconciling the world to Himself, not reckoning their offenses to them"
1 Timothy 4:10 "that we rely on the living God, Who is the Savior of all mankind, especially believers."
1 Timothy 2:4-6 "God, Who wills that all mankind be saved and come into a realization of the truth. For there is one God, and one Mediator of God and mankind, a Man, Jesus Christ, Who is giving Himself a correspondent Ransom for all (the testimony in its own eras)"
This last verse is important especially the words in red. Christ is a Ransom for all and this testimony will be given to all in its own era. There are those whom God gives faith during this era (that is the "especially believers" group in 1 Timothy 4:10) and there are those whom God will take through HIs rightoues judgments, who then will be cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, which is the second death. The second group will miss out on the glorious eons of the millennial kingdom and the new heavens and new earth. Then as 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 tells us...
"for even as in Adam all are dying, thus also, in Christ, all are vivified (or made alive). Yet each in his own order: the firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence (this is those whom God gives faith during this era), thereafter the consummation (this is the end of the eons and when those who are in the second death will be made alive, the verse goes on to explain), whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power. For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy is being abolished: death (this is the key and when those in the second death will be made alive in Christ). For He subjects all under his feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him. Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in All."
So, the answer to your question is "yes". God declared that He wanted to create man in His own image (Gen. 1:26). This does not just refer to Adam, but all mankind. The redemption process is all a part of creating man in the image of God: the first man Adam became a living soul, the last Adam a vivifying spirit (1 Cor. 15:45). The beginning of the process is flesh (which we all inherit from Adam) and the finished product is spirit (which we have in Christ).
Lock
His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. | | Back to Top | | |
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 8/4/2004 6:19 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by jefscott
Lock,
quote:
thereafter the consummation (this is the end of the eons and when those who are in the second death will be made alive, the verse goes on to explain), whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power. For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy is being abolished: death (this is the key and when those in the second death will be made alive in Christ).
The phrase "then cometh the end" may just as well be introducing the idea that EVEN "death" will be destroyed once the millenium is over and have nothing to do with a ressurection of the non-elect. That's the problem with universalism to me - there are a handful of verses that CAN be read as universalism, but they can also be read a different way. It seems a stretch to generate a doctrine as significant as universalism from a handful of equivocal verses.
Jefscot-
When God first began to give me a realisation of what 1 Cor. 15 spoke of, I thought the same thing; this could be speaking of the time period after the millenium (the new heavens and new earth). But there are differences between 1 Cor. 15:22-28 and Rev. chapters 20-22 which speaks of the new heavens and new earth time period.
During the news heavens and new earth there is:
-Still rule (Rev. 20:6; 22:5)
-Son still reigns (22:1-5; 11:5)
-Authority (21:24,25)
-Kings (21:24-26)
-Saints reign (22:5)
-Second death still exists (21:5)
-The nations still mortal (22:2)
In 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 we have:
-No more rule
-No more authority
-No more power
-No more enemies
-No more reigning
-All subject
-No more death, death destroyed
-All made alive, immortal
Another thing that I found was that it was not given to John to complete the word of God, but instead it was given to Paul (Col 1:25). That is why Paul could so boldly declare:
[that God would] "head up ALL in the Christ, both that in the heavens and on earth" (Eph 1:10)
"That the rightousness of God is manifest (being attested by the law and the prophets), yet a righteousness of God through Jesus Christ's faith, FOR ALL, and on all that are beliveing, for there is no distinction, for ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." (Rom. 3:21)
"through one offense FOR ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just award FOR ALL MANKIND for life's justifying." (Rom 5:18)
"For God locks up ALL together in stubborness, that He should be merciful to ALL" (Rom. 11:32)
"One died for the sake of ALL, consequently ALL died" (2 Cor. 5:14)
"For the saving grace of God made its advent to ALL" (Titus 2:11)
"That in the name of Jesus every knee should be bowing, celestial and terrestrial and subterranean, and every tounge should be acclaiming that Jesus Christ is Lord, for the glory of God the Father." (Phil. 2:10-11)
Compared to the rest of the bible there may only be a handful of verses which speak of the restoration of all things in the heavens and on earth but that is becasue it was a special revelation given to Paul (Eph. 1:9, Col. 1:26) and will only be found in his letters.
One last thing, the Greek words usually translated forever (aion) and everlasting or eternal (aionion and aionois)were never intended to mean never-ending or eternal. In Matt. 13:39 and 40 we see that an "aion" can come to an end (so it can't be forever!). In 2 Timothy 1:9 we see that God determined His own purpose and the grace given us in Christ Jesus BEFORE TIMES "AIONION" (pro chronos aionion) [also see Romans 16:25 and Tit. 1:2]. How could eternity have a beginning and an end? It can't! The Greek word aion and the Hebrew word olam both speak of a duration of time that has a beginning and an end.
I hope this helps in your bible studies and -Lee- I am sorry to get off the subject.
Lock
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Similitude
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
| Posted 8/5/2004 2:19 PM (GMT -6) | | Lock,
If the "death" that will ultimately be annulled is the agent rather than the state, the verse is consistent with an eternal new heavens and new earth contemporaneous with the "state" of the second death - i.e., death as an agent will have been terminated even THOUGH the state of death will continue. The other verses you give can, indeed, possibly refer to universalism, but I don't think they necessarily do contextually. If the new heavens and new earth turn out to be a finite age and there is a universal reconciliation thereafter, I will be happy about that. I just don't see compelling evidence for it.
But I'm looking for an explanation of how the non-elects' suffering is related to their supposed glorification. I'll look at the verses you and Lee provided this weekend and get back with you. For now, I'm still of the mind that EVEN IF universalism is true, the non-elects' sufferings are futile and vain - except, of course, those that lead to profit in THIS life.
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 8/5/2004 5:18 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi Jeff,
quote:
Lee: Voluntary suffering can still be meaningless, even in the cause of Christ, according to the Open View.
Jeff: As I understand it, if a suffering is truly suffering WITH Christ, it cannot be meaningless. What in OV are you referring to?
Casualties in the war, the warfare worldview, where some good soldiers go down in the battle, and there is genuine loss there.
quote:
Jeff: I want to start by saying I am not an Univesalist/Unitarian because they do not believe in the judgments of God (which are clearly laid out in scripture) and they do not see the necessity of the cross.
Lock: I doubt Lee denies that the non-elect will receive punishment...
I do believe God will judge wicked people in hell, and hope that people may be brought to repentance even after this, through the cross.
And about nontopicity! I don't mind it, so much. But I think I will start a thread over in the Theological Q&A section about hoping that all may be saved, and Jeff can tackle me there...
Blessings,
Lee
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 8/5/2004 5:41 PM (GMT -6) | | [quote That's the problem with universalism to me - there are a handful of verses that CAN be read as universalism, but they can also be read a different way. It seems a stretch to generate a doctrine as significant as universalism from a handful of equivocal verses.
Jefscott-
One last thing to think about over the weekend. The comment you made above can also be true of the theology concerning eternal torment in hell for the unbeliever. There are only a handful of verses and they can go either way. Some people read them and see eternal torment, others read them and see eternal annihilation, and of course, with the correct rendering of "aion" and "aionion" and "aionios" there are those who see them as being judgements for the millennial kingdom [when Jesus refered to Gehenna (Isa. 66:22-24)]and then the second death after the white throne judgement of unbelievers according to their works. The only passage that clearly states who is being tortured in the lake of fire and brimstone is Rev. 20:10 and they are satan, the false prophet, and the beast, whom will be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons (which is the millennial kingdom and the new heavens and new earth). I understand how you are leery concerning the subject because I approached it the same way and I studied and read over the passages time and time again before God finally showed me His divine plan for His creation. In my profile I have some websites you could look into.
Lock
His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. | | Back to Top | | |
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 8/6/2004 7:06 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by jefscott
Lock,
quote:
There are only a handful of verses and they can go either way. Some people read them and see eternal torment, others read them and see eternal annihilation, and of course, with the correct rendering of "aion" and "aionion" and "aionios" there are those who see them as being judgements for the millennial kingdom [when Jesus refered to Gehenna (Isa. 66:22-24)]and then the second death after the white throne judgement of unbelievers according to their works.
I believe, for now, option 3) "judgements for the millenial kingdom ... and then the second death after the white throne judgement of unbelieves according to their works." That is why I can't rule out the possibility of universalism, but I don't see it as being clearly taught. But if the non-elects' sufferings are unrelated to a future glorification or eternal life, then Lee's Calvinistic universalism cannot explain why a benevolent God would intentionally bring about such suffering in my opinion.
Jeff,
I see what you are saying about the Calvinistic view. Thank you for being open to what I posted. May God bless you in your future studies.
Lock
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