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BADGERVOL
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 27
| Posted 8/10/2004 6:56 AM (GMT -6) |   | So I'm the youth pastor who is a stronger OV lean everyday and I have a senior pastor who is a Calvinist and then Compatablist and then Calvinist again, as so on.
I've been at this job (we are in an Evangelical Free Church FWIW) since Feb. 1st of this year. The senior pastor and I get along pretty well as we continue to get to know one another and build trust and friendship.
Obvisouly pretty early on, one of the "issues" that have come up is the OV's take on things vs. the Calvinistic ideas that he holds. He has been a pretty good sport about things and at least has allowed me to hold my view without too much harrassing (although I don't mind it really).
Here comes my difficulty. I have pretty much given up all hope of him ever even considering the OV with an open mind. He has NEVER read anything about the OV from any proponents of it, but he certainly has read about the OV though from Critics of it and feels this is enough. So on my desk with regularity and in conversations every once in a while he tries to "enlighten me" to the ways of Calvinism. He appears to be utterly confused as to how a person could be honest with themselves and not come to Calvinism. He was Middle Knowledge guy for the first 13 years of his ministry and in his words "through my studies could not keep denying the truth of Calvinism." So he let go of what he wanted to be true and adopted Calvinism. I think that might be a part of the problem with not only him but other Calvinists I have come in contact with. They appear to believe that since they really want to feel free and have abandoned that "feeling" for what they believe is Biblical and rational, then they are obviously more right than those who just won't let go of the childish beliefs of us being free beings (he did not say this, I am starting to read between the lines on several Calvinistic friends).
So I keep getting this chapters in books ear marked for me to read, articles off the internet, and short conversations all trying to point me to "the truth" (which I admit to him could be, but I just don't find more reasonable than the OV). The problem is I keep telling him I went to Seminary and sat under a 5 Point Calvinist for my Theology classes. I'VE HEARD ALL OF THESE ARGUMENTS BEFORE! His nonverbal gestures seem to come across like he is enlightening me with a little tidbit that is going fling open the "door of truth" for me. So I continue to try and just be patient. He's got me reading "God's Lesser Glory" by Ware along with stuff by Carson, Piper, Packer, and the whole gang. I enjoy these as I read stuff from Calvinists all the time. He is not open at all to hearing anything outside of his view so I continue to read his stuff and think through things and actually become more and more of an OV'er (especially as I read Ware's book, as his critique so far is VERY weak and misrepresents Boyd many times).
So if you were in my shoes, how would you handle things? Any different than I am? Any thoughts or suggestions?
Sorry this is so long. I wanted to try and include most info that was important to anyone's counsel that could be given to me.
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Bobber
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 199
| Posted 8/10/2004 7:21 AM (GMT -6) | |
quote:
Here comes my difficulty. I have pretty much given up all hope of him ever even considering the OV with an open mind. He has NEVER read anything about the OV from any proponents of it, but he certainly has read about the OV though from Critics of it and feels this is enough. So on my desk with regularity and in conversations every once in a while he tries to "enlighten me" to the ways of Calvinism. He appears to be utterly confused as to how a person could be honest with themselves and not come to Calvinism.
So if you were in my shoes, how would you handle things? Any different than I am? Any thoughts or suggestions?
Well i'll throw in my two cents worth here and give you my opinion. I would say if you're happy where you are and feel that God wants you where you are just continue on. Humor your pastor by smiling and looking over his material but if you don't believe it then well...don't be moved by what he's saying. One problem however that can arise [and I think you would agree] that if you begin sharing with people publically what you believe concerning OV you might just get the left foot of fellowship from your church.
You understand you would be crossing grain with what the captain of the ship [your pastor is teaching] I was asked many years ago as a youth leader to step down for I had a slightly different way of thinking about the rapture of the church. [you know the pretrib, posttrib issue] Well I willingly stepped down, and refused to rock the boat. I hadn't mind you been teaching my beliefs to the youth but well...they discovered that I did believe somewhat different. I would say my good friend you're being watched and assessed.  Make a decision though never ever to get offended if they asked you to step down or even if they ever asked you to consider a different place for you to fellowship. Always lock into the fact though that they are your precious brethren in Christ no matter what.  | | Back to Top | | |
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Gerry Attrick
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 114
| Posted 8/10/2004 9:22 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by BADGERVOL
So if you were in my shoes, how would you handle things? Any different than I am? Any thoughts or suggestions?
Badgervol,
Is it conceivable that your senior pastor is much more biblically and theologically studied and knowledgeable than you seem to suggest in your note? Do you know for sure that he has not and does not read any of the literature that advocates open theism?
As Bobber suggests, remember your subordinate role. Let's assume for the sake of the argument that your senior pastor continues to be a student who learns Scripture and learns from others. If so, your position, as his junior and his subordinate, does not permit you to adopt the role as his instructor. In fact, his position in the church is naturally one of instructor to you. It seems to me that he is being patient with you as he subtly seeks to instruct you. If you chafe under his efforts to provide biblical and theological guidance and instruction, if you think he is unworthy to provide you instruction in these matters, if you are not able to be taught by your senior pastor, if you show yourself to know everything already, then you probably ought to resign your position.
You seem to indicate that you're a seminary graduate. Perhaps it's just that I'm an old geezer, but by the time one graduates from seminary, shouldn't one's theological anchors be rather well in place? The issue of God's sovereignty over his creation is basic to one's whole theological commitment, including one's philosophy of ministry. By the time one graduates from seminary and launches into the ministry, it seems to me that one should not be undecided about such basic and foundational matters of belief. Calvinism-Arminianism-Open Theism is an elementary and foundational issue that needs to be addressed and settled early in one's theological education. IMHO, anyone who is not settled on this question should resign the ministry and settle the matter before proceeding any further in one's pastoral role of influence.
Walk carefully! As Bobby advises, keep your disagreements with the senior pastor private. Be careful not to stir up strife within the congregation. If you, as Bobby says, get "the left foot of fellowship" for stirring up conflict, you will justly deserve it. If you leave the church, leave quietly.
Advice from a gray man,
Gerry | | Back to Top | | |
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 8/10/2004 10:55 AM (GMT -6) | | Dear BadgerVol,
My experience has been somewhat similar to yours, although my senior pastor is a classical Arminian. When I first discovered the Open View and began sharing it with him, his reaction was pretty much just an emotional one, and he would get very mad when I would present Scriptures and logical points that he didn't know how to answer.
I've learned to not be so up-front about the Open View, and to be careful with whom I share it openly. Some people just aren't ready for the Open View, and adequately knowing the distinctives of OVT really isn't a fundamentally important issue to the Christian life. (For my part, I was an OVer practically long before I ever heard of the "official" Open View).
Interestingly, my senior pastor has continued to be a great friend and almost like a father to me. He continues to allow me to teach and preach, even though he knows what I believe about the future. Also interesting is the fact that he himself admits that "prayer changes things" and that what we do makes a real difference in history, though he holds to the "eternal now" view of omniscience.
Perhaps my strongest intellectual trait (and thus, my biggest weakness) is that I am what personality tests call a "mathematician/architect/mastermind." In other words, I simply can't accept logical inconsistencies as truth. But I do try to keep in mind that logical consistency is not necessary for heart purity, and that God accepts people, not on condition of their logical consistency but rather on the condition of their heart.
As far as your particular situation goes, I would definitely be cautious. Oftentimes the best way to persuade someone is to say nothing and let them think. Confrontational debate is usually counterproductive and unhelpful.
I have been seeking to apply the following portion of Scripture to every area my life. (Not saying I get this attitude right all the time, but nevertheless it is my aim).
2 Timothy 2:22 So shun youthful passions and aim at righteousness, faith, love, and peace, along with those who call upon the Lord from a pure heart. 23 Have nothing to do with stupid, senseless controversies; you know that they breed quarrels. 24 And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kindly to every one, an apt teacher, forbearing, 25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant that they will repent and come to know the truth, 26 and they may escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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Bobber
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 199
| Posted 8/10/2004 11:35 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Interestingly, my senior pastor has continued to allow me to teach and preach, even though he knows what I believe about the future. Also interesting is the fact that he himself admits that "prayer changes things" and that what we do makes a real difference in history, though he holds to the "eternal now" view of omniscience.
Hi John! I think you know my position as being what I guess I call, "Classical Open Theism" which brings together open theism and classical theism together. [that is that God doesn't know the future but then again he does through time travel of information, which becomes a true and living paradox, something which seems to contradict itself but really doesn't] but concerning the classical position that your pastor holds I fail to see why you think he wouldn't believe that prayer changes things and that we can make a difference. Classical theism [unless you're talking about how Calvanists look upon the matter] but classical theism believes God does know the future by he knows it by foreknowledge, God having seen our choices outside of the realm of time. So a classical theist belives prayer can change things but God from his position in eternity actually saw us choose to pray.
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 8/10/2004 11:52 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Bobber
Hi John! I think you know my position as being what I guess I call, "Classical Open Theism" which brings together open theism and classical theism together. [that is that God doesn't know the future but then again he does through time travel of information, which becomes a true and living paradox, something which seems to contradict itself but really doesn't] but concerning the classical position that your pastor holds I fail to see why you think he wouldn't believe that prayer changes things and that we can make a difference. Classical theism [unless you're talking about how Calvanists look upon the matter] but classical theism believes God does know the future by he knows it by foreknowledge, God having seen our choices outside of the realm of time. So a classical theist belives prayer can change things but God from his position in eternity actually saw us choose to pray.
Hi Bobber,
If God has perfect knowledge of all future events, then "prayer changes things" can only be an illusion to us, for the future in the scenario the "eternal now" view proposes is exhaustively definite in every detail. If you pray and something different than what would have happened is the result, then the future was to that extent indefinite (and God would know it as such, we OVers contend).
As far as I have been able to tell, in the classical view, "prayer changes things" only compatibilistically, in the sense that God causes us to pray, we do so, and the result God predetermined comes about. In this classical scenario, we may only THINK our prayers make a difference, but the fact is we are just pawns in God's hands, not free agents able to make a difference.
Saying God knows what we will choose but still gives us freedom to choose makes God out to be nothing more than a powerless observer of history as it unfolds. If the future can to any extent be changed, even by God, then it is by definition indeterminate to that extent.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 8/10/2004 9:09 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by BADGERVOL
So I'm the youth pastor who is a stronger OV lean everyday and I have a senior pastor who is a Calvinist and then Compatablist and then Calvinist again, as so on.
I've been at this job (we are in an Evangelical Free Church FWIW) since Feb. 1st of this year. The senior pastor and I get along pretty well as we continue to get to know one another and build trust and friendship.
Obvisouly pretty early on, one of the "issues" that have come up is the OV's take on things vs. the Calvinistic ideas that he holds. He has been a pretty good sport about things and at least has allowed me to hold my view without too much harrassing (although I don't mind it really).
Here comes my difficulty. I have pretty much given up all hope of him ever even considering the OV with an open mind. He has NEVER read anything about the OV from any proponents of it, but he certainly has read about the OV though from Critics of it and feels this is enough. So on my desk with regularity and in conversations every once in a while he tries to "enlighten me" to the ways of Calvinism. He appears to be utterly confused as to how a person could be honest with themselves and not come to Calvinism. He was Middle Knowledge guy for the first 13 years of his ministry and in his words "through my studies could not keep denying the truth of Calvinism." So he let go of what he wanted to be true and adopted Calvinism. I think that might be a part of the problem with not only him but other Calvinists I have come in contact with. They appear to believe that since they really want to feel free and have abandoned that "feeling" for what they believe is Biblical and rational, then they are obviously more right than those who just won't let go of the childish beliefs of us being free beings (he did not say this, I am starting to read between the lines on several Calvinistic friends).
So I keep getting this chapters in books ear marked for me to read, articles off the internet, and short conversations all trying to point me to "the truth" (which I admit to him could be, but I just don't find more reasonable than the OV). The problem is I keep telling him I went to Seminary and sat under a 5 Point Calvinist for my Theology classes. I'VE HEARD ALL OF THESE ARGUMENTS BEFORE! His nonverbal gestures seem to come across like he is enlightening me with a little tidbit that is going fling open the "door of truth" for me. So I continue to try and just be patient. He's got me reading "God's Lesser Glory" by Ware along with stuff by Carson, Piper, Packer, and the whole gang. I enjoy these as I read stuff from Calvinists all the time. He is not open at all to hearing anything outside of his view so I continue to read his stuff and think through things and actually become more and more of an OV'er (especially as I read Ware's book, as his critique so far is VERY weak and misrepresents Boyd many times).
So if you were in my shoes, how would you handle things? Any different than I am? Any thoughts or suggestions?
Sorry this is so long. I wanted to try and include most info that was important to anyone's counsel that could be given to me.
Thanks.
Hi Badge,
I recently gave our head elder; a friend - Dr Boyd's book: Is God to Blame? I gave it to him because I believe it is a wonderful book for anyone who shepherds, or counsels - and it is a gentle way of sharing what I believe. The reason for giving it to him was not to "convert" him to the open view though. I have a deep respect and appreciation for him as a brother. He "walks" what he "talks" in a gentle and loving manner, with wisdom and insight. There is so much that I can learn from him, and I have come to understand that love is far more important than being right.
For some reason the open view is threatening - perhaps because it is such a different view of God than what most people were "raised" with, and so much of our security was based on the Father having "absolute sway." When life can seem so out of control, it is a comfort to know there is One who holds everything in His hands, who is all powerful; in control; who sees each detail of our lives - even the future. I used to believe all of that and it was comforting, but at the same time something just didn't fit - like one puzzle piece that I couldn't find. I think we try to "make it fit."
I personally have found most effective sharing ways in which my life has been transformed; my newfound love and urgency to pray.
I am very low key in sharing this as well (as John said). I think it has to be "fleshed out" and shared in gentle and loving ways, and not with an attitude that we need to change what someone else believes (not that you're doing that).
It also helps to realize the reaction that we get is because it seems to shake the very foundation that people believe is the Father; His character. My initial reaction was much the same; deep concern; serious doubts - even disdain (mild as it was). It went against everything I had been taught. I had to be open enough to consider it, and have spent the past two plus years doing just that, and am still considering (though it makes the most sense to me of anything that I've been taught as of yet). I do not think we have the "market cornered" on God yet. It is a wonderful journey of exploration. There are some potholes in the road along the way; maybe some detours, yield signs, yellow lights, or even flashing red ones...(ok I'm getting a little carried away).
I don't know if any of this helps. I know when I was mildly overly enthusiastic I was called wacked. My view was "wacked" and I was "wacked" as well (that even ended up in my fortune cookie at lunch time one day - placed there with some mischief by a loved one - who was trying to get their point across. My mentor in the faith; a wonderful, godly man whom I respect deeply told me I would "wash up on the shores of destruction" if I followed this road. I to this day do not understand what he meant. I asked him a follow up question, and he never wrote back. I know only one person in my city who believes this view (introduced me to it - for which I am grateful). He has been a real encouragement, but even he does not focus on it, and is careful in how he walks in this. It comes across though in how you live, in how you treat people, naturally in conversations, in messages, in your prayer life - and I think that is a better approach - to spark enough interest that perhaps someone will ask a question.
I do believe that the Open View has transformed how I see the Father, and how He sees me. It has changed my prayer life. It changes my ministry to others. It has made me realize how important my choices are in this life. It has also made me realize how wonderful grace really is. I love the Father - in a way that I never dreamed possible, and have experienced His love as never before. The "fruit" of those things will speak louder than any debate ever will (IMHO)
'Nite and God Bless,
A "fellow" sojourner,
Jo-Anne 
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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Bobber
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 199
| Posted 8/11/2004 1:56 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
If God has perfect knowledge of all future events, then "prayer changes things" can only be an illusion to us, for the future in the scenario the "eternal now" view proposes is exhaustively definite in every detail.
But my position John,has been here that God didn't know the future but then he came to know it by connecting revelation of time back to the beginning. Lets state that God is going along in time with us not knowing the future [except what he's decided will take place of course like the rapture or the resurrection] So he's going along in time with us and yes we are praying to him and he's answering our prayers. These prayers mean something don't they. Of course they do. But just because God now sends revelation back through time of our prayers which meant something when we prayed why then do those prayers take on the thought of having no meaning? We prayed them. He answered them [lets say he did] What took place had no meaning just because he sent revelation of it back through time to the beginning? Why not? I say they still have the same meaning they did when they were prayed.
quote:
As far as I have been able to tell, in the classical view, "prayer changes things" only compatibilistically, in the sense that God causes us to pray, we do so, and the result God predetermined comes about. In this classical scenario, we may only THINK our prayers make a difference, but the fact is we are just pawns in God's hands, not free agents able to make a difference.
I don't think you can really say that classical theist believe such a thing except those who are Calvinists. Those who believe in free will [Armenians] or whatever very much believe they have freedom of will and they pray because they choose to pray not that God causes them to pray.
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JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 8/11/2004 3:12 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Bobber
quote:
If God has perfect knowledge of all future events, then "prayer changes things" can only be an illusion to us, for the future in the scenario the "eternal now" view proposes is exhaustively definite in every detail.
But my position John,has been here that God didn't know the future but then he came to know it by connecting revelation of time back to the beginning.
That's fine, but that is not the standard Arminian view that my senior pastor holds.
quote:
Lets state that God is going along in time with us not knowing the future [except what he's decided will take place of course like the rapture or the resurrection] So he's going along in time with us and yes we are praying to him and he's answering our prayers. These prayers mean something don't they. Of course they do. But just because God now sends revelation back through time of our prayers which meant something when we prayed why then do those prayers take on the thought of having no meaning?
I am unaware of any scriptural evidence or any other reason to support the idea that God sends answers to prayer "back in time," as you claim. God operates in "real time" with us; that is, we pray, He responds, we hear (ideally). There is no need for answers to be "sent back in time;" all that is necessary is that God hears them (in real time), responds (in real time), and we receive the answer (in real time).
Do you know of any scriptures that would support your idea on time-travel?
quote:
We prayed them. He answered them [lets say he did] What took place had no meaning just because he sent revelation of it back through time to the beginning? Why not? I say they still have the same meaning they did when they were prayed.
I'm not saying prayer has no meaning, not at all. What I AM saying is that in the deterministic worldview, our prayers are just links in the unending causal chain of events.
quote:
As far as I have been able to tell, in the classical view, "prayer changes things" only compatibilistically, in the sense that God causes us to pray, we do so, and the result God predetermined comes about. In this classical scenario, we may only THINK our prayers make a difference, but the fact is we are just pawns in God's hands, not free agents able to make a difference.
quote:
I don't think you can really say that classical theist believe such a thing except those who are Calvinists. Those who believe in free will [Armenians] or whatever very much believe they have freedom of will and they pray because they choose to pray not that God causes them to pray.
There are two (related) concepts of compatibilism: 1. That exhaustive definite foreknowledge and human free will are compatible; and 2. That a moral agent is free to do as he desires, but his desires are given to him by God. Classical Arminians affirm #1, but (intuitively) deny #2.
That said, I do know that perhaps the most famous Arminian theologian, John Wesley, in fact did describe prayer in compatibilistic terms.
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BADGERVOL
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 27
| Posted 8/15/2004 6:43 PM (GMT -6) | | I apologize that I haven't been able to post here in a few days, but now I have a chance to reply to some of your great thoughts. I really appreciate this board and the time people spend to give me angles and perspectives that I just can't get on my own. I'll address several of you who bring up interesting thoughts in different posts.
Gerry Attrick:
I don't think I have too much of a problem with my subordinate role as a youth pastor under him. But ultimately we are both under Christ and the people in our church and we are teammates working side by side towards a common goal. That is what he tells me. He is my boss though on the more business side of things. But on the same token, we want to have an open and honest relationship with each other as we continue to get to know each other. I have read all that he gives me on Calvinism and continue to read stuff on my own supporting it, but I have yet to find any "new" arguments from any of the writings he has given me. It tends to be the same few arguments worded in a different way or displayed in a different fashion.
You commented at one point "by the time one graduates from seminary, shouldn't one's theological anchors be rather well in place?" Gerry, I guess I just completely disagree with you here and have a totally different mindset. There's no perfect person which includes their views on things. So that means there is no perfect seminary. Guy's like Calvin have claimed that the greatest theologians of all time will stand before God at best 70% correct on all of the differing theological positions on things. So if they are going to be 30% wrong, how wrong am I going to be? How wrong are my seminar professors going to be? I went into seminary not thinking everything they teach me will be right or correct, but rather I sat and wondered "I know some of what they think they are right on they will be wrong on, which of these many things are they teaching me wrongly (unknowingly of course)?" It's quite a different mindset than a lot of other pastors I see coming out of seminary. You know why I know that? Cause it seems the VAST majority come out as "cookie-cutter" images of they profs in seminary. That's not necessarily bad, but it's putting a lot of faith in men who WILL be wrong on things when they stand before God. So seminary for me was a chance to get one perspective (in many cases) on these complex issues that have baffled the greatest thinkers of the church and has caused divison for centuries. So who am I after a few years of study to stand up and say, Wesley, or Calvin, or any other great thinkers, "sorry but you have it all wrong, but I have seen the light." Now that is intellectual arrogance in my opinion.
As for me and my brain, I will continue to dig and sift, and try my best to hear as many out as possible in support of a variety of different positions and try my best to come to what I truly believe is most reasonable. Then when I stand before God wrong on some stuff, I can say I believed what appeared to be most reasonable based on the limited info I had and the fallen mind I had to work with.
I respect my senior pastor for changing positions theologically from Arminian to Calvinism very late in his pastoral career because it showed he never gave up reading and thinking. However, he has told me straight up, that he has NEVER read anything from any proponents of the OV. That is why I challenged him to do so before declaring that it was "clearly off base and wrong." I just think everyone should be truly in love with trying to find the truth, no matter where it leads them. | | Back to Top | | |
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BADGERVOL
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 27
| Posted 8/15/2004 7:06 PM (GMT -6) | | John Earp:
I really appreciate your comments. I am developing that type of a relationship with my senior pastor. He is such a laid back and loving man. I really respect him a lot in that area. He is so patient and kind. He disagrees with me, but he is very encouraging for me to think for myself and dissect things. He still likes to discuss things though. I would guess that it would be entertaining for someone on the outside to watch us discuss the OV and Calvinism together. If you ever get the chance I'd love to hear more about how your relationship developed after becoming a more devout OV'er with your senior pastor. Have the two of you talked about what areas just aren't worth discussing anymore, or do you tease each other playfully about each other's positions, or do you debate them still, or what? Just curious.
Thanks.
Moon_River_J:
I appreciate your encouragement and thoughtfulness in your response. I guess as I have begun the transition towards the OV and have come more and more to the conviction that it is more true than any other view I have read about so far, I also see it as very practical. It has changed my walk with God if for no other reason than it makes the most sense and seems to make God more relational and caring (although that obviously doesn't make it true, this is after determining it's truthfulness). I guess where I struggle at this point is that it makes so much sense to me and has done me so much good, that I get excited and want to share it with others. Then I get shot down, or it scares people or whatever. So I just close my mouth and go on praying and sharing God's love. I think I am learning more and more to just live my life and let people ask. I'm new to this.
Sahid:
I think I have been a bull in the china shop a few times in my life. I have always loved that about pastors and teachers in the past. I sat in a church service where a pastor delivered a sermon on eternal security and challenged that you could lose your salvation. It was the feather that broke the camel's back and led to a church split and I loved the sermon! Not because I necessarily agreed with it at the time, but because it made me think and challenged me. I wish there were more sermons like that, although it would probably be best discussed in a classroom setting. Thanks for your comments.
To all reading and those who commented:
I want to apologize if I came off as arrogant or acting as though I knew more than my senior pastor, or if I painted any innaccurate pictures of my senior pastor. He is truly a good man of God. He loves Jesus with all of his heart and wants to do what is right, and for that I have nothing but respect and love for the man. We are early in our relationship and continuing to get to know each other. I think things are going to be great. He knows how to manage me and work with me and bring the best out of me by empowering me to do what I do best. Thanks for all of your replies and thoughts so far and any others are always welcomed. | | Back to Top | | |
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 8/15/2004 8:28 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by BADGERVOL
Moon_River_J:
I appreciate your encouragement and thoughtfulness in your response. I guess as I have begun the transition towards the OV and have come more and more to the conviction that it is more true than any other view I have read about so far, I also see it as very practical. It has changed my walk with God if for no other reason than it makes the most sense and seems to make God more relational and caring (although that obviously doesn't make it true, this is after determining it's truthfulness). I guess where I struggle at this point is that it makes so much sense to me and has done me so much good, that I get excited and want to share it with others. Then I get shot down, or it scares people or whatever. So I just close my mouth and go on praying and sharing God's love. I think I am learning more and more to just live my life and let people ask. I'm new to this.
Badge,
I haven't heard anything from you that sounds like arrogance - at all. I know what you mean about being excited about sharing something that has changed your walk. I felt the same way, but I've learned that others will probably be more convinced by my life, than by my words. There is a time for words though. I had a recent conversation with my daughter who is strongly opposed to the open view. She is young, and passionate about God, and searches things out for herself. I wouldn't have it any other way. I spent far too long, about 25 years, believing whatever I was told. I told her I would bring her question to the board, so I posed it tonight, and hope to get some replies to share with her.
Honestly, I'm still exploring this myself, but it makes the most sense to me as well. I do believe, as you are patient, you will have opportunities - natural ones - to share the open view.
The open view does not change a person's eternal destiny, so there doesn't seem like there is an urgency to share it. I believe that being gracious will afford us more opportunities to share, than trying to 'make a case' for this view. As we establish trusting relationships, we will have people who want to listen; who may have questions. I've given out a couple of copies of "Is God To Blame" to leadership, because I feel it is a wonderful book for shepherding hurting people. Now I recommend Seeing is Believing to people who want to read books on prayer.
The thing I struggle with (from time to time) are the struggles in my own life. I wonder if they will somehow disqualify me, and if people will one day say, "I knew it. I knew her 'wacked' theology would do this..." One of the oldest and dearest friends that I have is a dear pastor in Las Angeles. He has been a mentor in the faith who, when he knew I was exploring this, said that those who follow this path will "wash up on the shores of destruction." He never explained what that meant, and I haven't had the opportunity to ask him. I got an e-mail from him today, so maybe I will.
The most important thing about this view is how you see the Father, and what difference that makes to your own walk with Him, and to how you love others. Prayer was a radical change for me. It answered so many unanswered questions in my heart. It birthed in me an urgency to partner with God - because the future really is partly open - and I have a part in determining that future - through my prayers; through my choices; as I reach out in love to believers, and non-believers alike.
My problem is that, as a leader who struggles herself, I'm not sure where to turn. I know we have Jesus to turn to, but, as I heard this said before; "I need someone with skin."
It's late, and I'm rambling once more...and maybe being a little too personal for the board - but, in a way - a very special way, I have found a community of believers here that I can turn to. I have a great appreciation for this place - and you can share what this view has meant/means to you here; there are many who are exploring, just as you and I have been, and are starting to see that this view "makes the most sense."
God Bless you Badge. Hang in there!
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 8/15/2004 11:23 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by BADGERVOL
John Earp:
I really appreciate your comments. I am developing that type of a relationship with my senior pastor. He is such a laid back and loving man. I really respect him a lot in that area. He is so patient and kind. He disagrees with me, but he is very encouraging for me to think for myself and dissect things. He still likes to discuss things though. I would guess that it would be entertaining for someone on the outside to watch us discuss the OV and Calvinism together. If you ever get the chance I'd love to hear more about how your relationship developed after becoming a more devout OV'er with your senior pastor. Have the two of you talked about what areas just aren't worth discussing anymore, or do you tease each other playfully about each other's positions, or do you debate them still, or what? Just curious.
Thanks.
Hi Badgervol,
As both our lives have become much more busy than before, we haven't had a lot of chances to engage in theological discussions recently. I guess I also came to feel that we had reached an impasse in our disagreements on the Open View, and that further discussion would be pointless. One thing I can say is that my senior pastor is more relational and motivational (like a salesperson), whereas I tend to be more philosophical, logical, and instructional (like a teacher), and so it would seem natural that I would gravitate towards philosophical issues, whereas he tends not to be as interested in those issues. He did forbid me from teaching the Open View in his church, but all I did was back off the question of the status of the future and focus on the scriptural passages which clearly show that God changes his mind when He sees fit and that prayer changes things. (So far he hasn't forbidden me from teaching those things). 
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