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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 8/15/2004 5:38 PM (GMT -6) |   | Hi,
Occasionally my daughter and I talk about the open view, and she raises her objections. She strongly objects to it - but that's ok with me. I would rather have a daughter who thinks for herself, than one who just accepts whateveritis she is taught.
Before she went away to school in North Carolina - she was sleeping in a ragged tent, with a broken zipper. She also used the tent as a YWAM leader - for wilderness team leading camps. Her tent was in such bad shape that she prayed, and told God that she needed a tent. The next week she was visiting the Marmot web site (just to look; to dream), entered a contest, and voila! She was the grand prize winner for all of North America - and her prize - a 500.00 Marmot tent - just right for one, or maybe two. She now sleeps in that, here, and in North Carolina.
We were talking about what an amazing answer to prayer this was, and I wondered - did the Father direct the hand to that slip of paper? Did He change the name on it as it was being drawn? Did he make sure the paper was in just the right place, at just the right time... The answer to prayer increased her faith.
I'm wondering, and she's wondering - what does this say about the foreknowledge of God, and about his orchestration of events in our lives? He knew that she needed a tent, and then He orchestrated it. How does this fit with the Open View?
Thanks,
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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God_Is_Truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2003
Total Posts : 33
| Posted 8/16/2004 8:08 AM (GMT -6) | | | for what it's worth, it could've just been a coincidence. | | Back to Top | | |
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gershom
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2004
Total Posts : 13
| Posted 8/16/2004 9:23 AM (GMT -6) | | In my understanding in the open view, God is free to absolutely determine some things while leaving other things open to various possible choices of free agents. If he wanted make the awarding of this prize to your daughter one of those things he absolutely determined, I don't see any reason he couldn't have. It wouldn't appear that any necessarily free moral actions of the people running the contest would be overrulled by God's determining the outcome of a random drawing!
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 8/16/2004 8:34 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Lee Merrill
That was a neat answer to prayer, Jo-Anne!
Isaiah 65:24 Before they call I will answer; while they are still speaking I will hear.
And I shall not make even one little teeny suggestion about which view explains this best...
Blessings,
Lee
quote:
Her tent was in such bad shape that she prayed, and told God that she needed a tent. The next week she was visiting the Marmot web site (just to look; to dream), entered a contest, and voila! She was the grand prize winner ...
Lee, and Everyone
This is something I promised her I'd bring to the board. I appreciate the responses. I guess I was wondering myself how it could jive with the open view - how God could determine the outcome of a contest - in order to answer prayer. So, the future is partly open - but God definitely does determine some things to answer prayer - right?
There is not even a doubt that just a week after a specific prayer request - that a contest held for all of North America - was a specific answer to prayer when she won that tent. God knew that she needed a tent. He knew the purpose of that tent - ministry. He knew that supplying that tent would increase her faith. I guess, im my mind, that does make Him a God that in some ways is deterministic, and also that He foreknows events of the future. Obviously when He heard her prayer - He set in motion the answer to that prayer - right? He knew what was going to take place to bring that about - even caused it.
This makes me wonder, once again, if there is not some "middle ground" that we're missing between the Open View and arminianism.
I'm still very much a "greenhorn" here.
God Bless,
Jo-Anne 
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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Gerry Attrick
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 114
| Posted 8/17/2004 2:22 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by moon_river_j
This makes me wonder, once again, if there is not some "middle ground" that we're missing between the Open View and arminianism.
I'm still very much a "greenhorn" here.
God Bless,
Jo-Anne
Jo-Anne,
Try Calvinism!  Why look for middle ground? Look for the truth! 
Gerry
P.S. I couldn't resist having a little fun with ya! | | Back to Top | | |
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 8/17/2004 6:13 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 8/17/2004 6:16 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by JEE
Hi Jo-Anne,
All that would be necessary for this prayer to be answered is for God to respond to your daughter's prayer. Why do you or your daughter think that God would have to possess traditional foreknowledge to answer this prayer?
In the Open View, God is certainly free to unilaterally cause some things to come to pass (like your daughter winning the contest), so long as no violation of morality is involved, such as, if God were to FORCE someone to sin.
I know. I think I'm slightly  confused about this one. If He determined that He would answer her prayer through this contest, He would have set a plan in motion; a blueprint, determined plan - which would require foreknowledge right? So, God determines some things and not others right? Does He determine who we will marry?
God Bless (a little more confused now than before),
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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gershom
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2004
Total Posts : 13
| Posted 8/17/2004 6:38 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by moon_river_j
quote:
Originally posted by JEE
...
In the Open View, God is certainly free to unilaterally cause some things to come to pass (like your daughter winning the contest), so long as no violation of morality is involved, such as, if God were to FORCE someone to sin.
I know. I think I'm slightly confused about this one. If He determined that He would answer her prayer through this contest, He would have set a plan in motion; a blueprint, determined plan - which would require foreknowledge right?
I'm not sure why you say this requires foreknowledge. God may know some things by virtue of his intention to bring them to pass by his own determining action- he purposes to do it, he does it; the certainty of it occuring is in his intention to accomplish it certainly. As the earlier poster noted, unless accomplishing this requires forcing somebody to sin, I do not see any reason which prevents God from positively determining this course of events and bringing them to pass by his own action.
quote:
So, God determines some things and not others right? Does He determine who we will marry?
LOL. Well, if he does I wish he would tell me who he's got determined out there for me, and where to find her. I suspect the answer to this one is actually no, but that's pure speculation. I think he may determine a few possible options. | | Back to Top | | |
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JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 8/17/2004 6:42 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by moon_river_j
quote:
Originally posted by JEE
Hi Jo-Anne,
All that would be necessary for this prayer to be answered is for God to respond to your daughter's prayer. Why do you or your daughter think that God would have to possess traditional foreknowledge to answer this prayer?
In the Open View, God is certainly free to unilaterally cause some things to come to pass (like your daughter winning the contest), so long as no violation of morality is involved, such as, if God were to FORCE someone to sin.
I know. I think I'm slightly confused about this one. If He determined that He would answer her prayer through this contest, He would have set a plan in motion; a blueprint, determined plan - which would require foreknowledge right? So, God determines some things and not others right?
Hi Jo-Anne,
Okay, I think I see where the confusion might be. The only "foreknowledge" God would need in such a case would be, yes, knowledge of that which He has unilaterally determined (who would win this particular contest). However, in the Open View, this would not be foreknowledge in the classical sense, for it was not necessarily something God had his mind made up about (predetermined) from all eternity. In the Open View, God relates to us in "real time." That is, contemporaneously, moment by moment.
quote:
Does He determine who we will marry?
I think in some cases, yes, that's possible, without violating moral freedom. For instance, God set up several couples in the Bible, such as Joseph and Mary and Isaac and Rebekah.
I also see no reason why, in the Open View, God would not be able to powerfully influence two specific individuals whom He thought were the perfect match, to meet, get to know each other, grow to love one another and choose to marry. (That's certainly how it happened for my wife and I). But I don't think that this is a violation of human freedom of choice, any more than a human matchmaker violates anyone's free will by trying to bring two particularly people together. See what I mean?
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 8/17/2004 8:25 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by JEE
quote:
Originally posted by moon_river_j
quote:
Originally posted by JEE
Hi Jo-Anne,
All that would be necessary for this prayer to be answered is for God to respond to your daughter's prayer. Why do you or your daughter think that God would have to possess traditional foreknowledge to answer this prayer?
In the Open View, God is certainly free to unilaterally cause some things to come to pass (like your daughter winning the contest), so long as no violation of morality is involved, such as, if God were to FORCE someone to sin.
I know. I think I'm slightly confused about this one. If He determined that He would answer her prayer through this contest, He would have set a plan in motion; a blueprint, determined plan - which would require foreknowledge right? So, God determines some things and not others right?
Hi Jo-Anne,
Okay, I think I see where the confusion might be. The only "foreknowledge" God would need in such a case would be, yes, knowledge of that which He has unilaterally determined (who would win this particular contest). However, in the Open View, this would not be foreknowledge in the classical sense, for it was not necessarily something God had his mind made up about (predetermined) from all ternity. In the Open View, God relates to us in "real time." That is, contemporaneously, moment by moment.
quote:
Does He determine who we will marry?
I think in some cases, yes, that's possible, without violating moral freedom. For instance, God set up several couples in the Bible, such as Joseph and Mary and Isaac and Rebekah.
I also see no reason why, in the Open View, God would not be able to powerfully influence two specific individuals whom He thought were the perfect match, to meet, get to know each other, grow to love one another and choose to marry. (That's certainly how it happened for my wife and I). But I don't think that this is a violation of human freedom of choice, any more than a human matchmaker violates anyone's free will by trying to bring two particularly people together. See what I mean?
So determinism is only a problem for Open Theism when it takes place before ternity (sorry...couldn't resist that little attempt at humour). I know you'll get even  !
I'm still struggling with the "real time" thing. If God determined some things from the foundation of the world, then He transcends time; yet He also relates to us in "real time" - so, in my finite little brain, He is both temporal and atemporal. I'm sure you're ready to choke me by now  soooo maybe I should quit for the night. I'm counting on grace.
God Bless,
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 8/17/2004 10:02 PM (GMT -6) | | Jo-Anne
So determinism is only a problem for Open Theism when it takes place before ternity (sorry...couldn't resist that little attempt at humour). I know you'll get even !
JEE: LOL! But seriously, determinism isn't a "problem" for Open Theism--we freely admit that God unilaterally determines some things to come to pass. Determinism is only incompatible with Open Theism as it relates to morally responsible actions. For instance, in the classical compatibilisitic Calvinism of Jonathan Edwards, one is free to do as one desires, but one's desires are caused/determined by God. (How this doesn't amount to God being the author of sin is not clear).
quote:
I'm still struggling with the "real time" thing. If God determined some things from the foundation of the world, then He transcends time;
The idea that God "trascends" time generally has meant that he is above time (in the sense of an "eternal now"). For God, who is of course all-powerful, determining/planning some things to happen, even in the far distant future, does not require that He transcend time, only that He possess the power to bring to pass whatever He desires.
For example, when God formed the world, He of course knew (and predetermined) precisely what He wanted to create before He created it, and then simply caused that which was in his mind to come into existence by saying, "let there be..." But this did not require any sort of foreknowledge on His part, except of course his own premeditated knowledge of what He desired and planned to create.
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 8/18/2004 7:43 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by JEE
Jo-Anne
So determinism is only a problem for Open Theism when it takes place before ternity (sorry...couldn't resist that little attempt at humour). I know you'll get even !
JEE: LOL! But seriously, determinism isn't a "problem" for Open Theism--we freely admit that God unilaterally determines some things to come to pass. Determinism is only incompatible with Open Theism as it relates to morally responsible actions. For instance, in the classical compatibilisitic Calvinism of Jonathan Edwards, one is free to do as one desires, but one's desires are caused/determined by God. (How this doesn't amount to God being the author of sin is not clear).
quote:
I'm still struggling with the "real time" thing. If God determined some things from the foundation of the world, then He transcends time;
The idea that God "trascends" time generally has meant that he is above time (in the sense of an "eternal now"). For God, who is of course all-powerful, determining/planning some things to happen, even in the far distant future, does not require that He transcend time, only that He possess the power to bring to pass whatever He desires.
For example, when God formed the world, He of course knew (and predetermined) precisely what He wanted to create before He created it, and then simply caused that which was in his mind to come into existence by saying, "let there be..." But this did not require any sort of foreknowledge on His part, except of course his own premeditated knowledge of what He desired and planned to create.
JEE,
Doesn't this, in a sense - limit God? Here's an example - prophetic: If John was truly inspired as he wrote the book of revelation on the Isle of Patmos - then the Father obviously already knew, and had determined certain things about the future - right? How do you answer this as an open theist?
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 8/18/2004 8:02 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by moon_river_j
quote:
Originally posted by JEE
Jo-Anne
So determinism is only a problem for Open Theism when it takes place before ternity (sorry...couldn't resist that little attempt at humour). I know you'll get even !
JEE: LOL! But seriously, determinism isn't a "problem" for Open Theism--we freely admit that God unilaterally determines some things to come to pass. Determinism is only incompatible with Open Theism as it relates to morally responsible actions. For instance, in the classical compatibilisitic Calvinism of Jonathan Edwards, one is free to do as one desires, but one's desires are caused/determined by God. (How this doesn't amount to God being the author of sin is not clear).
quote:
I'm still struggling with the "real time" thing. If God determined some things from the foundation of the world, then He transcends time;
The idea that God "trascends" time generally has meant that he is above time (in the sense of an "eternal now"). For God, who is of course all-powerful, determining/planning some things to happen, even in the far distant future, does not require that He transcend time, only that He possess the power to bring to pass whatever He desires.
For example, when God formed the world, He of course knew (and predetermined) precisely what He wanted to create before He created it, and then simply caused that which was in his mind to come into existence by saying, "let there be..." But this did not require any sort of foreknowledge on His part, except of course his own premeditated knowledge of what He desired and planned to create.
JEE,
Doesn't this, in a sense - limit God?
If God reveals that he himself is limited in some ways, I cannot see how that would be a criticism. Everyone knows God cannot do some things (like lie), and does not know some things (like 2+2=5).
quote:
Here's an example - prophetic: If John was truly inspired as he wrote the book of revelation on the Isle of Patmos - then the Father obviously already knew, and had determined certain things about the future - right? How do you answer this as an open theist?
Jo-Anne
From what I've read, most of the published Open Theologians tend to be amillenial or postmillenial, and so the book would really not pose a problem for their view, as they see it as primarily a vivid depiction of spiritual warfare.
However, one can take a futurist approach to Revelation and still maintain a belief in Open Theism, for quite obviously not every single detail of the future is revealed in that book. Open Theism wholeheartedly affirms that God has predetermined a large portion of the events of the future. In the "partly settled, partly open" mantra, the events of "the end times" are simply part of that which is settled with regard to the future. The fact that God could reveal to a prophet/apostle such as John something pertaining to even the next day does not require exhaustive definite foreknowledge. All that is required is that God be able to bring to pass that which He says will come to pass. (hint: Here's where God's omniPOTENCE really comes into play in Open Theism).
Blessings,
John
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Bobber
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 199
| Posted 9/1/2004 9:24 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
All that is required is that God be able to bring to pass that which He says will come to pass. (hint: Here's where God's omniPOTENCE really comes into play in Open Theism).
I think the only problem with this is that in Revelation 6 we read where the saints are slain and killed for preaching the word of God. Jesus clearly stated that a kingdom divided against itself cannot stand so with Open theism were left to belive that God is fighting against himself. He made people preach the word of God and then he killed them for doing it? No id rather say God merely saw the decisions that ungodly people made from his vantage point outside of time. He had nothing to do with their decision. Here's my position on the matter. Once the future did occur God sent revelation back in time to the beginning where he saw the choices men made in the realm of time. To see the choices made the choices therefore had to have been made in the realm of time. You can't see something that has taken place and it hadn't taken place. From Gods vantage point therefore it has taken place . | | Back to Top | | |
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cbost6421
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 65
| Posted 9/1/2004 9:58 AM (GMT -6) | | BOBBER,
I actually see nothing in Chapter 6 of Revelations to account for what you are saying.
The closest thing I could find was verses 9-10
When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slaughtered for the word of God and for the testimony they had given; they cried out with a loud voice, ‘Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long will it be before you judge and avenge our blood on the inhabitants of the earth?’
But they don't mention anythign about "God" killing the ones who were preaching His name... just that they were killed. Nor does it mention that these saints are the ones whom the 4 horsemen killed, nor does it mention anything about when these People are in Heaven, not necessarily after the horseman of death but they could also been there and the writer just didn't see them until the fitfh seal was openned. Don't read into the text that idea of strict Calvinism. God would never divide His house like that!
The open view never claims that God divides his house, rather Calvinism does. Is calvinism were true then God caused the Open View to come about so that Clavinists could fight it. Then God would be dividing those who were saved against themsleves!
Again in Jo Anne's duaghter's situation, all God would have to do to ensure that the daughter got the tent is to control who got the name drawn out of the hat, box, computer etc...
stu.westga.edu/~cbost1/openviewtheism.html
"those who pray truly are theologians and those who are theologians pray truly"
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