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JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 9/14/2004 2:17 PM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
Originally posted by Lee Merrill
Isaiah 43:9 All the nations gather together and the peoples assemble. Which of them foretold this and proclaimed to us the former things? Let them bring in their witnesses to prove they were right, so that others may hear and say, "It is true."
Isaiah 41:22-23 "Bring in your idols to tell us what is going to happen. Tell us what the former things were, so that we may consider them and know their final outcome. Or declare to us the things to come, tell us what the future holds, so we may know that you are gods."
So God is not just saying "I can bring it about!" He is saying "I know the future!" Real knowledge of the future per se, too, not just knowing so much about the present that the future is therefore predictable...
Hi Lee,
If you will examine the context of the above verses, it will be clear that God is indeed saying, the idols are powerless to do anything, while the LORD is able to do anything.
quote:
, since most prophecies involve human decisions, and some of them decisions in the area of salvation:
Jeremiah 23:6 In his days Judah will be saved and Israel will live in safety. This is the name by which he will be called: The Lord Our Righteousness.
The Open View has never denied that God had a plan for redemption from the foundation of the world, nor that God predicted He would send a Messiah, etc. All of these simply depend on God being omniPOTENT, not omniscient.
Blessings back to ya,
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Sahid
Megistered Rember
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 2013
| Posted 9/14/2004 10:21 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Certainly I believe time is real. I just also believe God is not at only one point. Relativity tells us time depends on matter! No matter, no time. That's a problem, for the Open View...
I mean the flow of time is real. At least to me time that doesn't flow is not really time. If God is at every point, time is static. The very unity of our consciousness indicates that time is dynamic.
I'm not sure what the problem is that you see with time's supposed dependence on matter. quote:
I believe that is from our perspective. "If you put your hand on the stove, you will be burned." Now I may intend to stop you if you try this! But the statement is still true, and not a lie.
And statements don't even have to be possible, to be true: "If you jump off a train that is going a million miles an hour, you will hurt yourself."
But the perception that there are multiple possibilities is not true in the static view. God leads us to believe by what he says in scripture that there are possibilities. Sure, it's not explicit, but why would one talk about million mile an hour trains if there is no practical application? Are God's if statements just intellectual distractions? Surely, there is application. quote:
But God's point is not strength, when he says he can predict, and the idols can't. So that is an indication that God is making his knowledge of the future proof of his divinity, not his ability to plan, and bring it to pass.
If God knows all our decisions before he makes us and he is responsible for making us... how is that different from having the power to cause the future?
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 9/15/2004 3:00 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi everyone,
quote:
Lee: God is not just saying "I can bring it about!" He is saying "I know the future!"
Jee: If you will examine the context of the above verses, it will be clear that God is indeed saying, the idols are powerless to do anything, while the LORD is able to do anything.
In Isaiah 43 there is mention of God's power farther on, but in both passages the point being made is based simply on God's knowledge, not his power:
Isaiah 41:26 Who told of this from the beginning, so we could know, or beforehand, so we could say, 'He was right'? No one told of this, no one foretold it, no one heard any words from you.
All God is asking for here is an accurate prediction. He is not asking for anyone to show they can make a plan, and carry it out.
quote:
Lee: … most prophecies involve human decisions, and some of them decisions in the area of salvation.
Jee: The Open View has never denied that God had a plan for redemption from the foundation of the world, nor that God predicted He would send a Messiah, etc. All of these simply depend on God being omniPOTENT, not omniscient.
Yes, but how is it that God is able to bring about a result, saying certain people will believe, if he will not override human choices in this area?
Thanks for the blessings in reply! I did need a boost…
quote:
Sahid: If God is at every point, time is static.
You can stand and watch cars traveling down a road, but that doesn't make the passengers not be moving within the vehicle, though. I agree that time advances! I don't insist that means that God cannot view it all.
quote:
Sahid: I'm not sure what the problem is that you see with time's supposed dependence on matter.
If God is in time, then there must have always been matter somewhere, if time depends on matter for its existence. I don't think the Open View holds that matter is eternal, though.
quote:
Sahid: But the perception that there are multiple possibilities is not true in the static view. God leads us to believe by what he says in scripture that there are possibilities.
Well, we do this, too!
"What do I have in my pocket?" (Bilbo Baggins)
Now Bilbo knows what he has in his pocket! Yet he speaks as if there are many possibilities, he is speaking from (in this case) Gollum's perspective.
quote:
Sahid: If God knows all our decisions before he makes us and he is responsible for making us... how is that different from having the power to cause the future?
Creation makes God a cause only if decisions are completely determined by the past, though. If they are not, then I think there may be real decisions, which are known, such as God knowing his future free acts himself.
Blessings,
Lee
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Sahid
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Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 2013
| Posted 9/16/2004 9:55 PM (GMT -6) | | After the exclaimation which he did not mean as a question, Bilbo was being deliberatively deceptive.
If I stand on the side of the road and watch cars pass, I can tell from my favored viewpoint that the road is not actually moving but the cars are. It's not a perfect analogy, but nothing is. Those people in the car would be wrong to say that the road is rushing past them. The road is static. The car is moving. If we make the analogy fit God in relationship to a static creation, we would say the road is static/unchanging, but God can fully see where it goes. This leads us to... quote:
Creation makes God a cause only if decisions are completely determined by the past, though. If they are not, then I think there may be real decisions, which are known, such as God knowing his future free acts himself.
When God is the one who created the road in the first place (or create drivers in such a way that he knew exactly where they would go once created), then the future is determined by the past.
Another bad analogy. In one of those Back to the Future movies, Marty watches his past actions. That Marty of the past may feel like he's making free choices, but his choices are already set. It is impossible for him to screw up and not save the day. That choice is completely unattainable. He feels like it is a distinct possiblity, but he's wrong. Future Marty (and the audience) knows exactly what will happen and knows it can't happen otherwise. In this example time is static. Choices seem free but are actually determined. They are determined by the person, but determined none the less. Add an all-knowing creator who in essence saw the movie before he ever started creating, and the characters are free to do nothing but follow the script God created in them. They are no longer determined by themselves but by God who made them that way, with those "free" choices. If their script was one of those choose your own adventure stories then time is no longer static but dynamic.
Basically my argument is this:
*Apparent freedom is not enough to allow a just, all-knowing judge to hold a sinner accountable for his actions.
*God is just and all-knowing.
*God holds sinners morally accountable.
*So we must have real freedom
*Which means the future is open to change depending upon my actions.
It hurts to stub your toe on a table leg, so we believe in tables. God acts in our lives and in history, so we believe in God. The future seems to depend partially on the choices of free creatures. Given that and the belief that our bad choices have bad consequences and God still remains holy, it makes sense to think the future is open.
I still interpret your arguement as saying apparent freedom is enough for moral accountability. If we are "brainwashed" to feel free when our choices are determined, then how does our Creator judge us for the consequence of our brainwashing? If I was smart and strong enough to create a human being knowing full well all his future choices and knowing that he would commit murder and feel like it was his freely chosen act, I would be responsible for the murder. I wouldn't be able to offer my life in exchange for his, because I'm the one who's guilty in the first place. It would be more appropriate for the creation to die for the creator, because the creation, having never exercised truly free choice, would still be innocent of any wrong doing.
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 9/17/2004 4:48 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi Sahid,
quote:
After the exclamation which he did not mean as a question, Bilbo was being deliberatively deceptive.
I don't think so, though! Gollum knew Bilbo knew the answer, but Bilbo was asking his question, assuming Gollum's viewpoint. So there was no deception in the question per se, I think.
"But what has it got in its pocketses, eh? Not string, precious, but not nothing. Oh no! gollum!"
quote:
*Apparent freedom is not enough to allow a just, all-knowing judge to hold a sinner accountable for his actions.
*God is just and all-knowing.
*God holds sinners morally accountable.
*So we must have real freedom
*Which means the future is open to change depending upon my actions.
This covers a lot of ground! But what about the bull that gored someone, and was to be stoned (Ex. 21:8)? Or a man who killed someone unintentionally, and yet had to live in a city of refuge until the death of the high priest? There is accountability, and yet those decisions were not free ones: "God let him fall into his hand" (Ex. 21:13), God was in control of this, of both events. Accountability does not imply freedom, I conclude.
quote:
Sahid: I still interpret your argument as saying apparent freedom is enough for moral accountability.
I believe it is possible that unbelievers can participate in their choices, to push the throttle as the car is going downhill, thus that is part of why they are accountable.
quote:
Sahid: If I was smart and strong enough to create a human being knowing full well all his future choices and knowing that he would commit murder and feel like it was his freely chosen act, I would be responsible for the murder.
Not if you had a good motive, and knew there would be a good outcome! And if the man who died was also guilty, and under the penalty of death.
I also would point out that God bears suffering, he bears the punishments that he inflicts, and bears sin as well. So there is condemnation, yet God is not limiting his involvement to bringing about sinful acts, and then only punishing them. And he does this for a good purpose, thus we may hold that no suffering is meaningless:
Romans 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
These are good questions to consider! And important ones, too, glad to think about this, and learn as well as share what pieces I may (think I) understand...
Blessings,
Lee
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Sahid
Megistered Rember
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 2013
| Posted 9/30/2004 10:47 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
I believe it is possible that unbelievers can participate in their choices, to push the throttle as the car is going downhill, thus that is part of why they are accountable.
But they are not accountable for the car crash. If I were to execute someone but gave them the choice of a bullet or poison, how accountable is my victim? Likewise, if I cut the breaks on a car and push it down a hill with someone locked inside, what is the person inside accountable for if he hits the gas? Either way, his blood, all of it, is on my hands. quote:
Not if you had a good motive, and knew there would be a good outcome!
2 Thes. 1:9 Good? I wrote: quote:
If I was smart and strong enough to create a human being knowing full well all his future choices and knowing that he would commit murder and feel like it was his freely chosen act, I would be responsible for the murder.
You wrote:quote:
Not if you had a good motive, and knew there would be a good outcome! And if the man who died was also guilty, and under the penalty of death.
But in the case of God and determinism there are no people who can control their own actions, so how are they guilty? quote:
Romans 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
Even in the open view God shows mercy to all. But Jesus on the cross gives us an example of unaccepted mercy. Matt. 27:34. That mercy is show does not imply that the mercy must be accepted. This is only the case if God shows his mercy in such a way as to make it irresistable. So it boils down to universalism is true if universalism is true. The only way Romans 11:32 can be taken to affirm universalism is if we first assume universalism. quote:
God is not limiting his involvement to bringing about sinful acts, and then only punishing them. And he does this for a good purpose, thus we may hold that no suffering is meaningless:
I don't see it as very meaningful. We've been screwed with so that we can be restored. I think absurd is the more accurate description. What do we gain from this process that God was powerless to give before we started?
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 10/3/2004 10:01 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi Sahid,
quote:
Lee: I believe it is possible that unbelievers can participate in their choices, to push the throttle as the car is going downhill, thus that is part of why they are accountable.
Sahid: But they are not accountable for the car crash. … what is the person inside accountable for if he hits the gas? Either way, his blood, all of it, is on my hands.
His blood is on your hands if the event was unjust. It's difficult to talk about hypothetical circumstances, though, because they don't necessarily correspond to a real instance of God's plans.
But in any case! The more the person steps on the gas, the more sin they have done, they did some sin there, on the way down, for which there must be real accountability.
quote:
Lee: Not if you had a good motive, and knew there would be a good outcome!
Sahid: 2 Thes. 1:9 Good?
2 Thessalonians 1:9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power …
This is a difficult verse, to begin with, "they will pay" (which usually refers to an act that is normally completed at some point), "destruction" (yet most hold that the destruction does not destroy them), "away from the presence" might mean "destruction coming from the presence."
But is there reason to hope for those under such judgment?
Jude 1:7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
This is a very similar verse. But then we also have this one:
Eze. 16:53 However, I will restore the fortunes of Sodom and her daughters and of Samaria and her daughters, and your fortunes along with them.
quote:
Sahid: … in the case of God and determinism there are no people who can control their own actions, so how are they guilty?
Sin can't be overlooked, though, whatever the reason:
Exodus 21:28 When an ox gores a man or a woman to death, the ox shall be stoned, and its flesh shall not be eaten.
Luke 12:48 But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows.
Sin brings guilt, just like fire results in ashes.
quote:
Romans 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
Sahid: The only way Romans 11:32 can be taken to affirm universalism is if we first assume universalism.
I do think "all" could mean "all without exception," though. How is this improbable? I think it is actually probable it does mean "without exception," for Paul has just mentioned both Jews and Gentiles as being disobedient, which include all people, everyone.
quote:
Lee: God is not limiting his involvement to bringing about sinful acts, and then only punishing them. And he does this for a good purpose, thus we may hold that no suffering is meaningless…
Sahid: What do we gain from this process that God was powerless to give before we started?
Let's ask the man born blind!
John 9:38-39 Then the man said, "Lord, I believe," and he worshiped him. Jesus said, "For judgment I have come into this world, so that the blind will see and those who see will become blind."
Whatever this man might say (and he did honor Jesus), I would mention that without suffering, there would be nothing to reward.
Revelation 2:7 To him who overcomes, I will give ...
Blessings,
Lee
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Sahid
Megistered Rember
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 2013
| Posted 10/3/2004 1:21 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi Lee,quote:
His blood is on your hands if the event was unjust. It's difficult to talk about hypothetical circumstances, though, because they don't necessarily correspond to a real instance of God's plans.
If it was unjust? But, in your view, don't we all begin in a car going down? It doesn't seem like we are pushed for any moral reason. We are just born going down? Is there some sort of pre-existence where we all did something wrong that justified being put into the car from birth? quote:
But in any case! The more the person steps on the gas, the more sin they have done, they did some sin there, on the way down, for which there must be real accountability.
I don't know. Quickening or delaying the inevitable doesn't necessarily look to me like a moral decision. Is it more or less evil to crash quickly? In America we usually think of speedy justice as a good thing. Either way, why do we have to suffer the consequences of the speeding car in the first place. Assuming we could be perfect, we would still crash just like everyone else. quote:
2 Thessalonians 1:9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power …
This is a difficult verse, to begin with, "they will pay" (which usually refers to an act that is normally completed at some point), "destruction" (yet most hold that the destruction does not destroy them), "away from the presence" might mean "destruction coming from the presence."
You skipped "eternal". That one's hard to explain away. Eternal destruction is not completed; it's eternal. "Destruction" is the state of being destroyed. quote:
But is there reason to hope for those under such judgment?
Jude 1:7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
This is a very similar verse. But then we also have this one:
Eze. 16:53 However, I will restore the fortunes of Sodom and her daughters and of Samaria and her daughters, and your fortunes along with them.
Could one verse possibly refer to the people who committed "sexual immorality and perversion" and the other refer to cities. I think Ezekiel is talking about the reputation of cities and Jude is talking about personal sins. Wouldn't you agree that in some sense those towns will "suffer the punishment of eternal fire"? quote:
quote:
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Sahid: … in the case of God and determinism there are no people who can control their own actions, so how are they guilty?
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Sin can't be overlooked, though, whatever the reason:
Exodus 21:28 When an ox gores a man or a woman to death, the ox shall be stoned, and its flesh shall not be eaten.
Luke 12:48 But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows.
Sin brings guilt, just like fire results in ashes.
Yes, but you were talking about God pushing the man down the hill in the first place. How could that man possibly be guilty? Is he guilty of being the way he couldn't help but be? I'll agree that if I sin on the way to unavoidable death, I deserve punishment. But what about having death made unavoidable? What did I do to deserve that? If I lie to someone in a crashing plane, I'm not guilty of sabtoging the plane. quote:
I do think "all" could mean "all without exception," though. How is this improbable? I think it is actually probable it does mean "without exception," for Paul has just mentioned both Jews and Gentiles as being disobedient, which include all people, everyone.
I agree 100%. It includes all people. It happened so that God may show mercy to all. Paul also talks about all falling short. In that same paragraph talks about all people being disobedient before he talks about God shutting them up in that disobedience. It is a tough verse but I wasn't disagreeing about the "all" but the "so that he may show". But I would even agree that God does show mercy to all. Forced belief doesn't seem like mercy to me though. It's more like brainwashing. quote:
John 9:38-39 Then the man said, "Lord, I believe," and he worshiped him. Jesus said, "For judgment I have come into this world, so that the blind will see and those who see will become blind."
I'm not sure I'm comfortable applying this story to every instance of "natural evil". Can we say that parents' sins never cause blindness? Is all blindness caused by God so that God can give sight? And even if we apply it universally, that would mean that God's healing only comes when we make the appropriate response; the man wasn't healed on the spot.
Rev. 20:14,15 Dead, Hades, and those whose names were not found in the book of life are thrown into the lake of fire. Are they coming back?
Rev. 3:16 So because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of my mouth.
He who overcomes, I will grant to him all...
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 10/5/2004 3:42 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi Sahid,
quote:
Lee: His blood is on your hands if the event was unjust.
Sahid: If it was unjust? But, in your view, don't we all begin in a car going down?
Yes, and God bears that sin that we start out with, too:
Romans 5:20 The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more…
quote:
Lee: The more the person steps on the gas, the more sin they have done…
Sahid: I don't know. Quickening or delaying the inevitable doesn't necessarily look to me like a moral decision. Is it more or less evil to crash quickly?
Here the analogy I think gets off track a bit. If we are completely out of control of the car, yet we rejoice in the damage that will be done, then that is a sin on our part, which comes from us. And the more we rejoice, the more accountability…
quote:
2 Thessalonians 1:9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power …
This is a difficult verse, to begin with…
Sahid: You skipped "eternal". That one's hard to explain away. Eternal destruction is not completed; it's eternal. "Destruction" is the state of being destroyed.
Yes, I missed that. This verse is more difficult than what I said!
quote:
Jude 1:7 [Sodom and Gommorah] serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
Eze. 16:53 However, I will restore the fortunes of Sodom and her daughters and of Samaria and her daughters, and your fortunes along with them.
Sahid: Could one verse possibly refer to the people who committed "sexual immorality and perversion" and the other refer to cities. I think Ezekiel is talking about the reputation of cities and Jude is talking about personal sins. Wouldn't you agree that in some sense those towns will "suffer the punishment of eternal fire"?
I do think both references are to people, not to geography, for one thing, the fire that destroyed Sodom was not eternal, and for another, people merely returning to the site of Sodom and rebuilding it would not fit this prophecy, for the real Sodomites are in reference throughout this passage:
Ezekiel 16:50 They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.
And the Israelites are also said to be restored! I don't think the occupation of Jerusalem by the Turks and crusaders fulfilled this verse, though…
quote:
Sahid: … in the case of God and determinism there are no people who can control their own actions, so how are they guilty?
Lee: Sin can't be overlooked, though, whatever the reason…
Sahid: Yes, but you were talking about God pushing the man down the hill in the first place. How could that man possibly be guilty?
Yes, I believe in two types of guilt, there is guilt by the very presence of sin, such as having inherited a sinful nature from Adam ("few blows"), and then there is guilt from participating in sin ourselves, for which we are more responsible ("many blows").
quote:
Sahid: If I lie to someone in a crashing plane, I'm not guilty of sabotaging the plane.
Yes, I agree, but I am saying that in a case where sin is present in us, or if we do a real sin without knowing it, the presence of sin brings guilt, just like merely touching a dead body, or sitting in a chair that a leper had sat in, made an Israelite unclean.
quote:
Sahid: But I would even agree that God does show mercy to all. Forced belief doesn't seem like mercy to me though. It's more like brainwashing.
Does forced life not seem like life? God made us with lungs, but no one complains about being forced to breathe. Salvation is a good gift, like life, like breath, we need it to get started, after this, I believe, we can choose.
quote:
John 9:38-39 Then the man said, "Lord, I believe," and he worshiped him. Jesus said, "For judgment I have come into this world, so that the blind will see and those who see will become blind."
Sahid: I'm not sure I'm comfortable applying this story to every instance of "natural evil". Can we say that parents' sins never cause blindness? Is all blindness caused by God so that God can give sight? And even if we apply it universally, that would mean that God's healing only comes when we make the appropriate response; the man wasn't healed on the spot.
Yes, sometimes sin causes judgment, and blindness, even (Acts 13:11), but we do have reason to believe that God will make every blind man see (Isa. 35:5; Luke 4:18). And yes, we are involved in our healing, but we don't do more than obey! Only God can give sight…
quote:
Rev. 20:14,15 Dead, Hades, and those whose names were not found in the book of life are thrown into the lake of fire. Are they coming back?
I don't think so. I hope for people, not for places…
quote:
Rev. 3:16 So because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of my mouth.
He who overcomes, I will grant to him all...
I don't believe everyone will have all the rewards! But I do hope that all who are rejected, will brought back.
Lamentations 3:31 For men are not cast off by the Lord forever…
Luke 15:4-5 Does he not leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it? And when he finds it…
Blessings,
Lee
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Sahid
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| Posted 10/6/2004 10:10 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Yes, and God bears that sin that we start out with, too:
Is it that God likes us to be sinful or is it that he likes bearing sin himself? If God makes me sinful to begin with, he starts looking a lot like Decartes' evil demon. (I think it was Descarte.) Why would God put us into sin just to take us out again? It's a great display of powerful masochism but not powerful love. Maybe it would be loving if he couldn't make us good in the first place and putting us in sin and taking us out was the only way available to make us good. But that would be weak love and unbiblical. God's creation was made good.
- God is not the author of evil.
- Evil exists in his once good creation.
- Therefore God must have made some creature capable of authoring that which God had not authored.
We can say it's a mystery, but it I don't think it has to be. I think John 10:10 fairly cleary says that the thief would have just be in a crashing car, but Jesus would have us live. To give the role of placing us in the crashing car to God is to put God in the role of Satan. God didn't put me in this mess; I did when I gave into Satan.
In a universalist world, evil and Satan become superfluous. But our experince shows us that evil does exist. So how do we explain it? God likes drama? He likes stress? He likes to suffer as his creatures are destroyed? There must be a non-God force in the world or else our experience of sin would show God to either be mean or incompetent. I think God allowing room for creatures to choose, makes the existence of something contrary to his will (sin, evil) plausible.
I guess my question to you is how do you explain God's choice to put sin on us? Even if sin is our heredity and not our actions, why would God make us in such a way? If I had the power to make people and I did that, people would think I was sick.
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Sahid
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Total Posts : 2013
| Posted 10/7/2004 8:44 AM (GMT -6) | | A few things are the same about our future home and our original home. Sin is not present. There is still work to do, but that work is a joy and not a pain. Both the garden and heaven are described as places of action, not passive pillow sitting. The garden is how God originally created us to live. Heaven is his solution to our rebellion. God didn't put us into sin so that we could overcome it. We are the ones responsible for sin, not God. He didn't pay the price for his sin, but ours. If he were responsible for sin, how would he be a worthy sacrifice?
I think your (or Williamson's) equating lack of sin with pillow palace is not the way the bible describes innocence. Genesis describes the garden as a place of activity, relationship, and learning. Jesus' parables about heaven describe our good work on earth corresponding to increased responsibility in heaven, and these responsibilities (charge over cities being one metaphor) is not a bad thing. The work is going to be good, yet there is no sin.
I just want to say that my understanding of heaven and hell is more than limited. All I have to go on are the vague references, metaphors, and my relationship with Jesus. But I think it's fairly safe to say that Jesus believed in a very bad hell and a very good (and active) heaven.
Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre | | Back to Top | | |
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 10/9/2004 7:30 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi Sahid,
I agree that permanent pain is not good, I am only saying that no ruffles from beginning to end is not best, either.
quote:
We are the ones responsible for sin, not God. He didn't pay the price for his sin, but ours. If he were responsible for sin, how would he be a worthy sacrifice?
God is certainly not the source of sin, yet it's in his plan, so he can show us redemption! And the depth of his love. Paul makes this point, I think, in a much lesser example:
2 Corinthians 2:4 For I wrote you out of great distress and anguish of heart and with many tears, not to grieve you but to let you know the depth of my love for you.
Blessings,
Lee
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"Even now we seem to have dim glimpses into regions
from which we receive no word to bring away" (George MacDonald) | | Back to Top | | |
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selah
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 10/11/2004 1:51 AM (GMT -6) | | <----doesn't see the problem with the pillow palace view
for the record,
love
selah | | Back to Top | | |
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 10/11/2004 4:10 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi everyone,
quote:
Sahid: Well, I guess the debate about what is stirring is more a matter of opinion.
I think you could find a consensus that slaying a dragon is more stirring than ... stirring a flagon!
quote:
Sahid: Our choices actually do have moral value because they are not forced by the chain.
I agree that people can really choose, I may even agree that unbelievers can choose some of their attitude.
quote:
Sahid: If God plans sin, how does the chain not extend to him?
Because you can control the water hose, and plan to water the lawn, and still not be the source of the water. I know about this because my lawn-fixer-folks put a note on my door saying they planted grass seed, so now I have to water twice a day for two months! It's been once a day, though. Once every other day. I hope the grass doesn't mind...
quote:
Selah <----doesn't see the problem with the pillow palace view
Do you really want nothing to overcome, forever, though? No mountains, no valleys, just flatter than Oklahoma? People do watch the Olympics! And I've heard people oftentimes come to the end of their life saying "I wish I'd risked more." For that very reason, I think...
Blessings,
Lee
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"Even now we seem to have dim glimpses into regions
from which we receive no word to bring away" (George MacDonald) | | Back to Top | | |
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selah
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 10/12/2004 2:08 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Selah
quote:
Selah <----doesn't see the problem with the pillow palace view.
[quote]Lee
Do you really want nothing to overcome, forever, though? No mountains, no valleys, just flatter than Oklahoma? People do watch the Olympics! And I've heard people oftentimes come to the end of their life saying "I wish I'd risked more." For that very reason, I think...
Blessings,
Lee
Ok, I thought about it. Nope. I don't want anything to overcome. If risk looks like the front page of the paper, it's not worth it. You can put it in the Rocky's, (please not oklahoma ;))but just give me a pillow palace...
It's also hard for me to buy into is the idea that redemptive love is somehow better than original love. I don't think we can talk about a boring existence without redemption/sin. I don't think we'll ever know. Perhaps God had other "risky" things for us to do besides struggling with sin and its painful ripple effects.
pillow fights and joy,
love
selah
"When we acknowledge that all of life is sacred and that each act is an act of choice and therefore sacred, then life is a sacred dance lived consciously each moment. When we live at this level, we participate in the creation of a better world."
Scout Cloud Lee | | Back to Top | | |
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 10/12/2004 2:53 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi everyone,
quote:
Sahid: I think we are the source of the water, the source of the sin. God still makes some good happen despite us. Neither does God's holding the hose determine whether we will turn on the water.
I think God does control some of turning it on, too, but glad to basically agree!
quote:
Selah: Ok, I thought about it. Nope. I don't want anything to overcome. If risk looks like the front page of the paper, it's not worth it.
Well, what on earth (not to mention Oklahoma) are you doing posting in this forum, then?
I think you are not quite a Proper Pillow Palace Patron, posting in the "The Raging Debate" forum requires some risk! I think you've probably played Monopoly, too, and rooted for a sports team, I expect, even taken that risk of love or friendship?!
quote:
Selah: It's also hard for me to buy into the idea that redemptive love is somehow better than original love.
Well, as you say, only God knows what the alternatives would have really been like. But I do think we see more depth in sacrifice, when it really happens…
quote:
Selah: pillow fights and joy…
To you all, too!
Blessings,
Lee
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"Even now we seem to have dim glimpses into regions
from which we receive no word to bring away" (George MacDonald) | | Back to Top | | |
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Sahid
Megistered Rember
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 2013
| Posted 10/12/2004 7:32 PM (GMT -6) | | Wait, I thought we were the source of the "water", not God. God never wanted the water to be turned on, and he certainly never turned it on himself. That was all us.
You say God knows the future.
I say that makes the future determined and deprives us of freedom.
You say we still have freedom, because we 'tap the gas' in a car that is already certain to crash.
I say that means God created a sinful situation.
You say he paid for his sin.
I say his sinfulness makes him an unworthy sacrifice for us.
You say it's not he who is sinful; he just planned to have sin.
I say if he planned to have sin, we are deprived of freedom.
And we're back to where we started.
I see your view as having two 'leaks':
- No human freedom - which means no moral responsibility
- God being the source of sin - which makes him ineffective for our atonement.
You have to stop covering one to plug the other. Sin exists. Either it came from God, or it didn't. If it did, God is bad. If it didn't, then it wasn't his plan.
If I plan to have lions kill Christians in an amplitheater, I can set things up so I am sure the lions will kill. The lions are not responsible for murder. They are (for the purposes of this illustration) entirely predictable. They don't have a free will; when they are hungry, they eat. To say that God planned everything, that he set it up so that he was certain we would sin is to do the same thing. In this world we have been created just like lions. We behave completely predictably out of cause and effect, not because we choose to (like God who is always faithful by choice) but because we can't help it (like a lion). In this hypothetical world of sin, even if we were responsible for the degree of our sin (tapping the gas), God would still bear the guilt of creating the original sin in the first place.
If God turns on the water and aims it at the lawn, how is he not responsible for the lawn being watered? Maybe he didn't create the water (let's say in the water tower), but instead we did. But if he created us with no alternative but to creat water, he is responsible. It's like saying, "I didn't turn the TV on. I just pushed the power button." If you know with certainty the consequences of your actions, you are responsible for them. If you are responsible for sin, then you are in no position to forgive sin, especially your own.
Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre | | Back to Top | | |
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 10/13/2004 4:22 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi Sahid,
quote:
Wait, I thought we were the source of the "water", not God. God never wanted the water to be turned on, and he certainly never turned it on himself. That was all us.
The analogy breaks down a bit for me here, I believe that we are the source of our sin and evil, along with the devil etc., but not God. However, I believe that God does cause people to carry out sinful actions, though again, God is not the source of the sin in those actions.
quote:
I see your view as having two 'leaks':
- No human freedom - which means no moral responsibility
- God being the source of sin - which makes him ineffective for our atonement.
I am willing to allow for some ability for unbelievers to choose to rejoice in the sin that they are destined to do. But these deeds are not sins for God! Because of God's good purpose, all the way through, in the process, and in the result. Thus God remains sinless, and can make atonement.
quote:
You have to stop covering one to plug the other. Sin exists. Either it came from God, or it didn't. If it did, God is bad. If it didn't, then it wasn't his plan.
Sin didn't come from God, yet he did plan it, again (for example) the police can make a plan for a drug dealer to sell some drugs to an undercover policeman, so he can be caught, but that doesn't mean that the police sinned in the drug dealer's sin.
quote:
We behave completely predictably out of cause and effect, not because we choose to (like God who is always faithful by choice) but because we can't help it (like a lion). In this hypothetical world of sin, even if we were responsible for the degree of our sin (tapping the gas), God would still bear the guilt of creating the original sin in the first place.
Scripture does teach clearly that we are guilty even for unintentional sin. Sin brings guilt, and God does bear it, but not because he is guilty. Then he sets us free, and then we are no longer predictable via cause and effect.
quote:
If God turns on the water and aims it at the lawn, how is he not responsible for the lawn being watered?
Yes, he is responsible for the result, which is good, thus God is not sinning.
quote:
Maybe he didn't create the water (let's say in the water tower), but instead we did. But if he created us with no alternative but to create water, he is responsible.
Yes, for the results, and we are responsible for our (sinful, bad result) intentions, too…
Genesis 50:20 As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.
Blessings,
Lee
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"Even now we seem to have dim glimpses into regions
from which we receive no word to bring away" (George MacDonald) | | Back to Top | | |
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Sahid
Megistered Rember
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 2013
| Posted 10/14/2004 10:47 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Sin didn't come from God, yet he did plan it, again (for example) the police can make a plan for a drug dealer to sell some drugs to an undercover policeman, so he can be caught, but that doesn't mean that the police sinned in the drug dealer's sin.
But police are the creators of dealers; God is. If God knows that creating a red ball will result in meaningless human death, he is sinful. If God knows that creating a hummingbird will result in meaningless human death, he is sinful. If God knows (with certainty) that creating Joe, the future dealer, will result in meaningless death, he is responsible.
Police do not know (with certainty) that their actions will result in sin. I would contend that if they knew (with certainty) that their actions would result in sin, they would be the one guilt of that sin. If the police do a sting in which there is no choice but to break the law, then (hopefully) the crime forced by the sting will not be held against the accused in court. This is precisely because it's not a crime if it's unavoidible.
If God creates us knowing (with certainty) what we will do, our crimes are unavoidable. If our sins our known with certainty, it is implied that the sins themselves are certain. They may feel uncertain, and who knows, maybe we are accountable for unavoidible (am I spelling this right?) sin if we believe it is avoidible. Maybe. But that doesn't mean that God is not responsible for his actions.
If God knows the future with certainty, the future is certain.
If the future is certain, God is in complete control, because he made it that way.
If he made it that way, he is responsible for all sin found within what he has made.
On the other hand: If we have real (not just apparent) freedom, we create some of the future ourselves.
If we create some of it ourselves, God doesn't create all of it.
If we create some of it ourselves, we are responsible for all sin found within what we have created.
Whoever determines it is morally responsible for it.
If God had the script of human life written before any of us got here, how is any of our freedom more than an illusion? When you talk about the freedom of believers or unbelievers, I'm still not sure what you mean. Is it apparent or real? Do they just think the future is open or is it actually open? You've probably already answered this but this topic's been going for awhile.quote:
Scripture does teach clearly that we are guilty even for unintentional sin. Sin brings guilt, and God does bear it, but not because he is guilty. Then he sets us free, and then we are no longer predictable via cause and effect.
If you want to do the work of looking up these verses, I'd love to respond. But first I'd like to say that uncleanness is not necessarily guilt or sin. Most modern scholarship that I know of draws a distinction between ritual cleanness and morality. Many of the prophets draw the same distinction. Micah comes to mind.
Again my periodical reminder: I'm told I come across mean and impatient. That's probably because I am, quite often, mean and impatient. But I really enjoy our discussion and respect your position, mostly because you are honestly looking at the issues. In my experience, that's rare.
Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre | | Back to Top | | |
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