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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 10/15/2004 6:26 PM (GMT -6) |   | Hi Sahid,
quote:
If God knows (with certainty) that creating Joe, the future dealer, will result in meaningless death, he is responsible.
I agree! I only hold that the result is not meaningless, and thus God is indeed responsible: for good, since the outcome is good.
quote:
If the police do a sting in which there is no choice but to break the law, then (hopefully) the crime forced by the sting will not be held against the accused in court.
If the police knew for sure that Al Capone would commit a crime in their presence if they did X, then they should run, not walk, to do X. I think a further objection here, though, would be that it would be a crime on the part of the police to do a sting against someone who was not otherwise a crook. I think some case could be made for that, the police should not go around trying to get people to sin! And neither does God (Jas. 1:13), though God still does plan even sinful actions, the result is the point of the plan, not the sin.
So God can do more than the police can do, for he knows what the result will be, but if a policeman decides to try and cause a sinful action, the result is not known.
quote:
If God creates us knowing (with certainty) what we will do, our crimes are unavoidable. If our sins our known with certainty, it is implied that the sins themselves are certain. … If he made it that way, he is responsible for all sin found within what he has made.
God is responsible for his plan, I agree, for the decisions about the process, and for the results, but what the sinner intends will not come about, but that is the sinful part of the action, which is not what God intends, so God is not sinning.
quote:
When you talk about the freedom of believers or unbelievers, I'm still not sure what you mean. Is it apparent or real? Do they just think the future is open or is it actually open? You've probably already answered this but this topic's been going for awhile.
We have had a time (a tome!). I believe that believers' freedom is indeed real, though God knows believers' future free choices, just as he knows his own future free choices. From our perspective, the future is open, but it's not actually open, God knows it, that is what I believe. God sees believers' future free choices, and includes them in his plan, and stays in complete control, for these choices must be made within his will.
quote:
Lee: Scripture does teach clearly that we are guilty even for unintentional sin. Sin brings guilt, and God does bear it, but not because he is guilty. Then he sets us free, and then we are no longer predictable via cause and effect.
Sahid: … uncleanness is not necessarily guilt or sin. Most modern scholarship that I know of draws a distinction between ritual cleanness and morality. Many of the prophets draw the same distinction.
Here is one verse about this:
Leviticus 5:2 Or if a person touches anything ceremonially unclean-- whether the carcasses of unclean wild animals or of unclean livestock or of unclean creatures that move along the ground-- even though he is unaware of it, he has become unclean and is guilty.
I agree that there is a distinction between ritual uncleanness and morality! But I would insist that ritual uncleanness is a picture of sin, and since such uncleanness requires cleansing and atonement, we may conclude that sin also requires cleansing and atonement as well, in all instances, and atonement turns aside God's wrath, implying guilt…
Blessings,
Lee
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 10/16/2004 2:48 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi Sahid,
quote:
But God "put us in the car"/"put the sting on us"/"forced us to be sinful" before we had ever done anything to deserve it.
Then by the same account, God is unjust for causing animal pain, too. I would say in reply that this objection does not mention the fact that God bears sin and suffering, it seems to paint God as only the policeman in the sting operation.
quote:
I'm disturbed that you think it is good for a criminal to be convicted, not for what he is guilty of, but for what he was compelled to do. That's a morality I don't understand.
Well, again, even accidental, unrecognized ritual uncleanness brought guilt. Plain and simple. So we have to fit our concepts of justice around this! And again, I would point to God bearing sin and guilt, and also insist that the trip down is for a good purpose, and it will have a good result.
Philippians 2:17-18 But even if I am being poured out like a drink offering on the sacrifice and service coming from your faith, I am glad and rejoice with all of you. So you too should be glad and rejoice with me.
Ephesians 3:13 I ask you, therefore, not to be discouraged because of my sufferings for you, which are your glory.
quote:
It was for the joy set before him that Christ endured the cross. It didn't seem like Christ enjoyed bearing sin, suffering, and death. It doesn't even seem like it was exciting to him.
That's a good point! But I don't think God can be at all challenged. I do think we can, though, and thus the "Love of a good challenge" part applies (only) to us:
Psalm 110:3 Your troops will be willing on your day of battle.
Luke 10:17-19 The seventy-two returned with joy and said, "Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name." He replied, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy…
quote:
It seems to me the sin/drama/excitement is exactly what Jesus opposed.
I don't think so, though!
Exodus 13:18 The Israelites went up out of Egypt armed for battle.
Numbers 14:9 And do not be afraid of the people of the land, because we will swallow them up. Their protection is gone, but the Lord is with us.
quote:
God plans for us to have joy, fellowship, and freedom from sin. Those plans are freely chosen by us. Sometimes we disappoint. Sometimes we surprise him.
I agree with your sentiments, though not with all your conclusions! God does set people free, and his relationships are real, and we will have joy, fellowship, and even more freedom, as we trust and obey him…
Blessings,
Lee
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