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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 8/18/2004 3:02 AM (GMT -6) |   | Sisters,
Exactly. Rom. 11 is often read to mean God's acceptance of Gentiles REQUIRED Israel's rejection of God.
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
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gershom
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2004
Total Posts : 13
| Posted 8/18/2004 4:01 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Can God ever get too big?
Contrary to the vast numbers of spam email I receive for male enhancement products, "big" is not an essentially good attribute of which more is always desireable.
If our desire to make God "bigger" leads us to make inaccurate claims about him, I would say yes, our view of God has made him "too big".
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 8/18/2004 4:34 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi everyone,
quote:
Romans 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
Sahid: How can you make something disobey you? If you succeed, they are still obeying you.
The rebellion was against God's commands, I would say, but not against his plan:
Romans 5:20 The Law came in so that the transgression would increase…
quote:
Tom: naturally understood Rom. 11.32 to mean God adopted an approach, a way, of relating to us and transferring his life to us which doesn't play favorites and which requires that sin be dealt with regardless of race, calling, status, or accomplishment.
But I think this verse speaks of a purpose for men to be disobedient, in order to show them mercy. Yes, sin must be dealt with without favoritism, and God's choice is for people to first all be sinners, and then (this is more than an approach!) to show them mercy.
quote:
SOC: Israel's rejection of the cornerstone became an opportunity for the Gentiles.
Yes, it did! But Paul is saying more, he's saying their rejecting the cornerstone was part of God's purpose, to show them mercy, and that that is true of the Gentiles, too.
Blessings,
Lee
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"Even now we seem to have dim glimpses into regions
from which we receive no word to bring away" (George MacDonald) | | Back to Top | | |
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 8/18/2004 5:12 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sahid
quote:
frus·tra·tion (fr-strshn)
n.
The condition that results when an impulse or an action is thwarted by an external or an internal force.
The blocking or thwarting of an impulse, purpose, or action.
Isaiah 5:2 "He expected... but..."
Genesis 6:7 "I am sorry that I have made them."
I submit that the verses in which God says He repents or changes His mind are a figure of speech (Anthropopatheia) which God uses to reveal Himself to us. And even though it may look like God repents or changes His mind, just the same as we do, but 1 Samuel 15:29 states (KJV), "The Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent, for He is not a man, that He should repent."
Lock
His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. | | Back to Top | | |
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JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 8/18/2004 7:12 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
Anyway that you look at Romans 11:32, it clearly shows God's hand in influencing the choices made by either the Israelites or Gentiles.
Lock
Well, the older translations rendered it "concluded them all in disobedience." Even if we go with the rendering, "imprisoned" or "shut them up", a unilateral determinism is not necessary, as Romans 1, 2, and 3 clearly reveal that sin is something each individual enters into voluntarily, AND as a result of impenitence, God "gives them over to a depraved mind." In other words, God confirms our choices, whether for or against Him.
The converse truth to to stark picture revealed in Romans 1, 2, & 3 is that God confirms the believer's choice to live righteously, empowering us to be his witnesses, and progressively conforming us to the image of his Son.
http://revivaltheology.net | | Back to Top | | |
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 8/19/2004 7:19 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by JEE
quote:
Originally posted by lock
Anyway that you look at Romans 11:32, it clearly shows God's hand in influencing the choices made by either the Israelites or Gentiles.
Lock
Well, the older translations rendered it "concluded them all in disobedience." Even if we go with the rendering, "imprisoned" or "shut them up", a unilateral determinism is not necessary, as Romans 1, 2, and 3 clearly reveal that sin is something each individual enters into voluntarily, AND as a result of impenitence, God "gives them over to a depraved mind." In other words, God confirms our choices, whether for or against Him.
The converse truth to to stark picture revealed in Romans 1, 2, & 3 is that God confirms the believer's choice to live righteously, empowering us to be his witnesses, and progressively conforming us to the image of his Son.
Romans 1, 2 and 3 tells us that no one seeks after God and His righteousness (Romans 3:11 and 12). We are incapable of choosing God because of our helpless and sinful state. Only through God's mercy are we saved when He brings to a realization of His grace through Jesus Christ. God's righteousnes is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all (Rom. 3:22).
Lock
His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. | | Back to Top | | |
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 8/19/2004 7:24 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by JEE
quote:
Originally posted by lock
but 1 Samuel 15:29 states (KJV), "The Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent, for He is not a man, that He should repent."
In context, 1 Sam. 15:29 is saying, "I have made up my mind, and will not repent in this instance." King Saul's fate was sealed at this point, and no amount of begging by Saul and no amount of praying by the prophet Samuel would change God's mind in this instance.
If 1 Sam. 15:29 expresses a universally true statement about God NEVER changing His mind, then the over three dozen instances in the OT where it is recorded that he DOES change His mind (when He has good reason to) are flatly contradicted.
In 1 Samuel 15:29 God states that He is not a man, that He should change His mind. So are you saying that in the three dozen instances where it appears that God changes His mind that He then is a man?
Lock
His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. | | Back to Top | | |
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 8/19/2004 7:32 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by WormBowedB4TerribleGod
quote:
Originally posted by lock
I submit that the verses in which God says He repents or changes His mind are a figure of speech (Anthropopatheia) which God uses to reveal Himself to us.
Yes, He's revealing to us He changed His mind in those instances.
He not only says He changes His mind, we see the results of Him changing His mind.
God says:
1 Samuel 15:11 "I regret that I have made Saul king"
Then we see Him make someone else king. God revealed that He changed His mind by changing kings.
Regarding 1 Samuel 15:29, God will not change His mind about taking the kingdom from Saul. If they understood God as NEVER changing His mind, there's no need to specify that God won't change His mind in this instance.
God declared the end from the beginning (Is. 46:10). God always knew that He would reject Saul because He already declared that the scepter would not depart from Judah (Gen. 49:10). When the bible says that God regrets or repents or changes His mind, these are figures of speech, just like when the bible describes God ar having body parts; ie. arm, eyes, hands, etc.
Lock
His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. | | Back to Top | | |
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WormBowedB4TerribleGod
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 43
| Posted 8/19/2004 7:42 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
God declared the end from the beginning (Is. 46:10).
Like a referee declares the end of a game from the beginning.
quote:
When the bible says that God regrets or repents or changes His mind, these are figures of speech, just like when the bible describes God ar having body parts; ie. arm, eyes, hands, etc.
When God says He changes His mind they are figures of speech that mean the exact opposite? LOL
If He wasn't changing His mind, why would He use a "figure of speech" about Him changing His mind?
We know God is spirit (John 4:24), so we know he doesn't have a physical body; no where are we told God doesn't have a personality with mind, will and emotions.
That's how we're made in His image, mind, will and emotions. Otherwise, we're not made in His image.
Who are you, oh worm, to question the living God? | | Back to Top | | |
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 8/19/2004 7:50 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by WormBowedB4TerribleGod
quote:
Originally posted by lock
God declared the end from the beginning (Is. 46:10).
Like a referee declares the end of a game from the beginning.
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Does a referee declared "My counsel shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure"? And does a referee declare the things not yet done?
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quote:
When the bible says that God regrets or repents or changes His mind, these are figures of speech, just like when the bible describes God ar having body parts; ie. arm, eyes, hands, etc.
When God says He changes His mind they are figures of speech that mean the exact opposite? LOL
We know God is spirit (John 4:24), so we know he doesn't have a physical body; no where are we told God doesn't have a personality with mind, will and emotions. That's how we're made in His image, mind, will and emotions. Otherwise, we're not made in His image.
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If you are convinced that God changes His mind and that His purposes could change, then what would keep God from changing His mind about our salvation?
Lock
His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. | | Back to Top | | |
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WormBowedB4TerribleGod
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 43
| Posted 8/19/2004 7:55 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
If you are convinced that God changes His mind and that His purposes could change, then what would keep God from changing His mind about our salvation?
I trust Him, don't you?
Hebrews 6:4-6 "For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God, and put Him to open shame."
Hebrews 10:26-27 "For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain terrifying expectation of judgment, and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries."
Hebrews 10:38-39 "But My righteous one shall live by faith; And if he shrinks back, My soul has no pleasure in him. But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul."
I assume because scripture OFTEN constrains us to have faith, live by faith, pursue righteousness, etc. there exists the possibility for US to do differently.
Hebrews 2:3 "how will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation?"
Looks like some of it is in our hands.
Who are you, oh worm, to question the living God? | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 8/19/2004 9:51 AM (GMT -6) | | Worm-
You're so right. I've tried to pin down Calvinists on this before and they won't see it. You'll never get Lock to admit this. 
Tom  | | Back to Top | | |
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