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micah4
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2004
Total Posts : 8
| Posted 8/13/2004 3:39 PM (GMT -6) |   |
There is a God which men have invented, who they have formed in their own imagination.
This is the God they say who is most glorious, and wise; for he has ordained
all things. Of this God they say, all things are according to his will.
Of this God they say, our pain is his gain; for he has brought to us
evil according to his unknowable purpose.
This is a God, who in my greatest hope, was merely disdainful of me; for as it appears I had desired that which was not his will. In my greatest sorrow he could only condemn me; for I had lacked faith. In my wilderness he is far from me. He is nowhere to be found. He is silent. He will not reveal his plans to mere mortals such as me, for he is far higher than man. He will be mysterious. Who may demand that he should shine his light, when exceeding darkness surrounds them? No, but they will walk in the cold alone; he will offer no comfort. He is a distant God.
But the God I know; the God I sojourn with; he who called me by name-
He is a God who is near to me. He is the God who hopes in my hope.
He is the God who rejoices in my rejoicing and is delighted in my delight.
He is the God who in my disappointment, walks with me as one disappointed.
He is the God who in my greatest sorrow, commiserates with me.
He is a God who is near, so near as to hold me in his arms.
Not to condemn me as a lesser, as one who lacking his inscrutable knowledge
ought simply to keep silence in deference.
He is a God who wrestles with me.
As a brother he walks with me. An equal.
He is near to me, and his love wraps me as a familiar
blanket. He came and walked among us as our son, our neighbor,
our friend, our father. He said to us, it is in
removing your pain I am glorified, not in bringing it to you.
A bruised reed he would not break.
Of our pain being his purpose, he said no;
I would take your pain myself. Let me suffer, you need not have to.
Those who follow their own god deny the God I love and serve.
"Your God is two small" they say. What a weak God, who could
experience disappointment! Our God knows the end from the beginning!
He cannot be disappointed, for he works all things according to
his will! The great and sovereign God will know no frustration!
Blasphemy, and heresy! To say that God could hope for something
and not realize his hope! Your god is not all powerful, nor
all knowing! He is not the God we serve! Our God is a mighty
King, and all creation bows before him! No other God
could be more powerful, more present, or more knowing than the
God we have designed! Our god is much, much bigger than your god!
But the God I know said this:
It is true, I admit- I am quite a small God.
In truth, I am weak; for in this we are most powerful.
They rightly see that I am abased, for in this we are most exalted.
It is true, that I do not rule as a mighty king.
For the kings of the nations lord power over their subjects,
but our glory comes not of them who serve us,
rather of them whom we serve.
You say my God is too small? I say your God is too big.
He is too big to stoop down and get his hands dirty.
Too big get down on my level. Too big to walk among us;
Too big to experience disappointment and rejection.
Too big to lay aside his power, and risk frustration.
Too big to call me by name. Yes, he is far too big.
You say bigger is better. But my God says that he who is least will be the greatest.
You say my God is far too small?
Fair enough then; and I would say your God is too big. far too big.
Too big to become the smallest man who ever lived. Too big to know us as a friend.
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 8/14/2004 5:49 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi Micah,
quote:
Not to condemn me as a lesser, as one who lacking his inscrutable knowledge
ought simply to keep silence in deference.
God doesn't condemn because we are not great, but there are times for such silence…
Habakkuk 2:20 But the Lord is in his holy temple; let all the earth be silent before him.
quote:
As a brother he walks with me. An equal.
That's too small, though! I wouldn't go that far...
quote:
Of our pain being his purpose, he said no; I would take your pain myself. Let me suffer, you need not have to.
God does indeed bear pain, and pain has a purpose:
Psalm 119:71 It was good for me to be afflicted so that I might learn your decrees.
Psalm 119:75 I know, O Lord, that your laws are righteous, and in faithfulness you have afflicted me.
But how is it that the OV teaches that people need not suffer? I think again, this is going too far.
quote:
Too big to lay aside his power, and risk frustration.
Too big to call me by name. Yes, he is far too big.
Certainly Calvinists hold that God knows them by name, and stoops to serve them, and gets his hands dirty.
Matthew 8:17 This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet Isaiah: "He took up our infirmities and carried our diseases."
Luke 22:27 For who is greater, the one who is at the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one who is at the table? But I am among you as one who serves.
Laying aside power, even!
Philippians 2:7-8 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death-- even death on a cross!
But not experiencing frustration…
PS 115:3 Our God is in heaven; all he pleases, he has done.
quote:
You say my God is far too small?
Fair enough then; and I would say your God is too big. far too big.
Too big to become the smallest man who ever lived. Too big to know us as a friend.
God isn't too big to do that! You are overstating your case…
But your God is indeed too small, for frustration implies all evil is not overcome.
Romans 8:36-37 As it is written: "For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered." No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us.
Blessings,
Lee
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billzbob
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 82
| Posted 8/14/2004 8:24 AM (GMT -6) | | Our pastor, Harry, an alumn of Calvin Seminary (Grand Rapids, Mich.) once recounted how an old and well respected seminary professor of his had told a class of first year students that: "Any thing that ends in an 'IST' or an 'ISM' is idolotry." A hand in the back inquired whether that included "Calvinism." Snickers followed, we might presume. But whatever... The old and well respected seminary professor merely answered "ANY."
God is not an idea of ours. ANY of ours. | | Back to Top | | |
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Sahid
Megistered Rember
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 2013
| Posted 8/14/2004 9:52 AM (GMT -6) | | For both He who sanctifies and those who are sanctified are all from one Father, for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren, saying, "I will proclaim Your name to My brethren, in the midst of the congregation I will sing Your praise." And again, "I will put My trust in Him." And again, "Behold, I and the children whom God has given me."... ...Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.
Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre | | Back to Top | | |
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billzbob
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 82
| Posted 8/14/2004 10:24 AM (GMT -6) | | Well, its a junior higher who thinks that his parent will show all cards at the same time. How many places in scripture can I think of where it is declared that if this or that group were more mature God would have told a fuller picture. But expressing this or that in parental, sheep-dogging fashion was called for.
Baah-Ram-Ewe!
(All the verses such as those two, piled into a heap, are not trivial. They do express God's love in not abandoning. But they do not reduce God into a man.) | | Back to Top | | |
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billzbob
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 82
| Posted 8/14/2004 10:26 AM (GMT -6) | | | That we "should hold your tongue until you can represent the other side in terms that they would agree with" (borg) is good advice. My Calvin-alumn pastor from years ago did so. We all should. | | Back to Top | | |
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 8/14/2004 1:22 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi Sahid,
quote:
frustration: The condition that results when an impulse or an action is thwarted by an external or an internal force.
Isaiah 5:2 "He expected... but..."
Genesis 6:7 "I am sorry that I have made them."
Isaiah 5:4 What more was there to do for my vineyard that I had not done? Why, when I looked for the crop of grapes, did it bring forth wild grapes?
But God was not asking for advice about gardening here! He is asking us to consider what the problem was. And God doesn't wait for our answer, he says what more he is going to do:
Isaiah 5:5 Now I will tell you what I am going to do to my vineyard: I will take away its hedge, and it will be destroyed; I will break down its wall, and it will be trampled.
I think the point here is that good fruit from people requires suffering, not unvarying pleasant circumstances:
Hebrews 12:11 No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.
And about Gen. 6:2, we may read "God was grieved," but grief does not imply frustration:
Isaiah 53:3 He was despised and forsaken of men, A man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief…
Isaiah 53:10 Yet it was the Lord's will to crush him and cause him to suffer…
Isaiah 53:11 After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light of life and be satisfied…
Now I have addressed your verses, and you should address mine:
PS 115:3 Our God is in heaven; all he pleases, he has done.
ISA 14:27 For the Lord Almighty has purposed, and who can thwart him? His hand is stretched out, and who can turn it back?
Blessings,
Lee
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"Even now we seem to have dim glimpses into regions
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feelinahole
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 8/14/2004 2:08 PM (GMT -6) | | I am not of a mind to respond positively to "poems" that ridicule either side.
What good does it do... | | Back to Top | | |
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Sahid
Megistered Rember
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 2013
| Posted 8/14/2004 5:15 PM (GMT -6) | | Ps 115 - It is God's pleasure to create free creatures, who can choose to love Him or not. If it was God's pleasure to create creatures who were destined to choose Him or not, then He could create them.
ISA 14 - The Lord is speaking of a particular plan here: to overthrow oppressive nations. I think God can do it. He has, and He will. My belief is that God's sovereignty is self-limited. If God wanted to take away freedom and thereby know the future exhaustively, He could. But He won't; He's not that kind of guy.
These verses point to the ultimate sovereignty of God, and I believe God possesses that sovereignty. However, He has made something truly amazing: us. We are not predictable machines. We are creatures who can, to a degree, choose our own future. In that way we are a little like God. But the consequences of this are that oftentimes we will not choose what God would have us choose or what is expected or probable. But God's ok with this. It's a sacrifice He's willing to make in order to make real relationship with us available.
Now to the verses I posted. The vineyard didn't turn out as God expected. Of course God responds. Just because God responds appropriately doesn't mean his actions weren't thwarted in the first place. That does not follow. quote:
I think the point here is that good fruit from people requires suffering, not unvarying pleasant circumstances:
Hebrews 12:11 No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.
But what if someone is already mature? Did God need to suffer in order to bear good fruit? If the "righteousness and peace" are already there, then there is no reason for discipline. Had the vineyard acted like it should have, God would not have disciplined it, right? But then wouldn't it miss out on the good fruit? No, because it had already matured. quote:
And about Gen. 6:2, we may read "God was grieved," but grief does not imply frustration:
Isaiah 53:3 He was despised and forsaken of men, A man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief…
Isaiah 53:10 Yet it was the Lord's will to crush him and cause him to suffer…
Isaiah 53:11 After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light of life and be satisfied…
I guess we agree that God suffered and was grieved. Here's what grief is: quote:
grief ( P ) Pronunciation Key (grf)
n.
Deep mental anguish, as that arising from bereavement. See Synonyms at regret.
A source of deep mental anguish.
Annoyance or frustration: Trying to follow their directions was nothing but grief.
Trouble or difficulty: the griefs of trying to meet a deadline.
Archaic. A grievance.
Why would someone feel grief if they always got what they wanted? That person would have to want grief, but then it wouldn't really be grief. Grief essentially is sadness from loss. Frustration is essentially sadness from not getting what you want. If one has grief, one would rather not have lost whatever it is one is grieved over. So the lost thing was wanted, but not obtained. That is frustration. Good grief.
Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre | | Back to Top | | |
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 8/15/2004 11:02 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi everyone,
quote:
Ps 115 - It is God's pleasure to create free creatures, who can choose to love Him or not. If it was God's pleasure to create creatures who were destined to choose Him or not, then He could create them.
Then God is not frustrated! Even by this definition. If God created the world the way he wanted to create it, and that was all his purpose was.
quote:
ISA 14 - The Lord is speaking of a particular plan here: to overthrow oppressive nations. I think God can do it. He has, and He will. My belief is that God's sovereignty is self-limited. If God wanted to take away freedom and thereby know the future exhaustively, He could. But He won't; He's not that kind of guy.
But it doesn't say "who can thwart this purpose?" Or "who can turn his hand back here?" These questions are raised ("Who can thwart him? Who can turn his hand back?") to show that this purpose will certainly succeed, this is arguing from a general principle, the reason given is "The Lord has purposed," not (you have to paste something in here) "The Lord has purposed and will succeed this time." But then "who can thwart him?" is a meaningless question. "The Lord will succeed, and who can thwart him?" is not an insight…
quote:
Sahid: We are creatures who can, to a degree, choose our own future. ... But the consequences of this are that oftentimes we will not choose what God would have us choose or what is expected or probable. ... It's a sacrifice He's willing to make in order to make real relationship with us available.
But then does a real relationship require that people in heaven can sin?
quote:
Lee: I think the point here is that good fruit from people requires suffering, not unvarying pleasant circumstances:
Hebrews 12:11 No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.
Sahid: But what if someone is already mature? Did God need to suffer in order to bear good fruit?
The mature bear fruit, too, with some pain and suffering as well:
Galatians 4:19 My dear children, for whom I am again in the pains of childbirth until Christ is formed in you …
quote:
Sahid: If the "righteousness and peace" are already there, then there is no reason for discipline. Had the vineyard acted like it should have, God would not have disciplined it, right?
But the righteousness and peace weren't there. Thus the need for suffering, thus the need for discipline.
Hebrews 12:7 For what son is not disciplined by his father?
quote:
Sahid: I guess we agree that God suffered and was grieved. Here's what grief is: …
Annoyance or frustration: Trying to follow their directions was nothing but grief.
That's a relatively recent meaning, though, and not the most usual one. Not all the English meanings apply to the Hebrew word, and also, not all the Hebrew word meanings apply in a given verse. I think the usual meaning of grief does apply, though, in Gen. 6:2.
quote:
Sahid: Why would someone feel grief if they always got what they wanted?
Because suffering brings fruit! Even the suffering of grief.
Job 30:25 Have I not wept for those in trouble? Has not my soul grieved for the poor?
quote:
Good grief.
Yes, I agree! Grief can indeed be good…
2 Corinthians 7:9 … yet now I am happy, not because you were made sorry, but because your sorrow led you to repentance.
Blessings,
Lee
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"Even now we seem to have dim glimpses into regions
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 8/15/2004 11:09 AM (GMT -6) | | billzbob: God is not an idea of ours. ANY of ours.
Tom: Are all our ideas of God then wrong?
I don't know of anybody who actually believes their ideas ARE God, that their ideas and God are one and the same. So sure, God is not an idea. But since nobody believes this, what's the point of pointing it out? If the point is to suggest that our ideas about God don't ever accurately relect the truth about God, then we're in deep trouble. I doubt you're saying this. So...what ARE you saying?
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
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Sahid
Megistered Rember
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 2013
| Posted 8/15/2004 12:49 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
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Ps 115 - It is God's pleasure to create free creatures, who can choose to love Him or not. If it was God's pleasure to create creatures who were destined to choose Him or not, then He could create them.
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Then God is not frustrated! Even by this definition. If God created the world the way he wanted to create it, and that was all his purpose was.
I agree. God is not frustrated in His attempt to create free creatures. But, in His attempt to bring those creatures to relationship He sometimes is frustrated. quote:
quote:
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ISA 14 - The Lord is speaking of a particular plan here: to overthrow oppressive nations. I think God can do it. He has, and He will. My belief is that God's sovereignty is self-limited. If God wanted to take away freedom and thereby know the future exhaustively, He could. But He won't; He's not that kind of guy.
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But it doesn't say "who can thwart this purpose?" Or "who can turn his hand back here?" These questions are raised ("Who can thwart him? Who can turn his hand back?") to show that this purpose will certainly succeed, this is arguing from a general principle, the reason given is "The Lord has purposed," not (you have to paste something in here) "The Lord has purposed and will succeed this time." But then "who can thwart him?" is a meaningless question. "The Lord will succeed, and who can thwart him?" is not an insight…
No one can twart His purpose against His will. But it is my contention that His will is for us to make up our own minds. His will is that He would abdicate a measure of His sovereignty, and give it to us. So in the big scheme of things the only way to twart God's purpose would be to make Him all-powerful without the ability to share His power. Saying that God shares His power does not mean that He is twarted. It means He likes to share. But these verses deal with the brute force of God. He always has the ultimate say. He can still make the mountains melt. So no army or dictator can last a second longer than God allows. I guess what I'm saying is in this situation God is just kicking butt, but overall His purpose is not butt kicking; it is love. Since love is voluntary, since God has chosen to put some things outside of His control, His purpose cannot be twarted concerning those things, because they are no longer His to purpose. Our wills are ours. He can be frustrated, that we don't choose Him, but His plan to make us free is not frustrated.
Lee, I enjoy discussing this stuff with you. It's rare to find people who are reasonable, kind, and honest. But I think you misunderstand something about the open view (or at least my version of it). There are more choices than God is all-powerful and God is powerless. There is an in between where God gives up a little power to His creation. It's not that God is always frustrated. If we take "being frustrated" to mean "failed", then God is not frustrated. But I think frustrated means more than that. Tell me what you think frustrate means. Who knows, I might agree that God cannot be frustrated under your definition. quote:
But then does a real relationship require that people in heaven can sin?
Yes. But there we wont be deceived or tempted. It's possible for me to run head first into a wall right now, but I'm not going to, because I am neither deceived into thinking that's a good idea, nor am I tempted to do so. quote:
Galatians 4:19 My dear children, for whom I am again in the pains of childbirth until Christ is formed in you …
Read those last six words. The suffering was happening because of immaturity. I still say that good fruit does not require suffering. Otherwise how could creation be good? I believe that God is passible, but I don't think He suffered before creation. I think the suffering is the result of sin and of a loving response to sin. quote:
But the righteousness and peace weren't there. Thus the need for suffering, thus the need for discipline.
Yes, exactly. Thus the need for suffering. quote:
That's a relatively recent meaning, though, and not the most usual one. Not all the English meanings apply to the Hebrew word, and also, not all the Hebrew word meanings apply in a given verse. I think the usual meaning of grief does apply, though, in Gen. 6:2.
I don't know no Hebrew. If you do, tell me what the word translated grief means, but in context is sure sounds like sadness from creation not behaving like He wanted it to.
Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre | | Back to Top | | |
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 8/16/2004 4:26 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi Sahid,
Thanks for your reply…
quote:
Sahid: … in His attempt to bring those creatures to relationship He sometimes is frustrated.
I don't think so, though!
Romans 8:30-31 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. What, then, shall we say in response to this?
quote:
Sahid:
ISA 14 - The Lord is speaking of a particular plan here: to overthrow oppressive nations. I think God can do it.
Lee: But it doesn't say "who can thwart this purpose?" Or "who can turn his hand back here?" These questions are raised ("Who can thwart him? Who can turn his hand back?") to show that this purpose will certainly succeed, this is arguing from a general principle…
Sahid: No one can thwart His purpose against His will. …. Since love is voluntary, since God has chosen to put some things outside of His control, His purpose cannot be thwarted concerning those things, because they are no longer His to purpose.
1 John 4:10 This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us…
Love is not coming from us! His purpose is for us to love him, too, doesn't the OV hold that the first commandment expresses God's purpose, as well as his desire? Once God has a purpose for us to love him, then I think we may apply the principle of Isa. 14, and conclude that he will succeed, for "love never fails" (1 Cor. 13:8).
quote:
There is an in between where God gives up a little power to His creation. It's not that God is always frustrated. If we take "being frustrated" to mean "failed", then God is not frustrated.
By "frustrated" I mean an unfulfilled desire or purpose, even a small one. If it's a purpose, then frustration means failure, I would say.
quote:
Lee: But then does a real relationship require that people in heaven can sin?
Sahid: Yes. But there we wont be deceived or tempted. It's possible for me to run head first into a wall right now, but I'm not going to, because I am neither deceived into thinking that's a good idea, nor am I tempted to do so.
But the devil sinned in God's very presence, apparently without temptation. We won't ever be all-knowing, so how is misunderstanding impossible, if people in heaven can choose any direction in their thoughts?
quote:
Galatians 4:19 My dear children, for whom I am again in the pains of childbirth until Christ is formed in you …
Sahid: Read those last six words. The suffering was happening because of immaturity. I still say that good fruit does not require suffering. Otherwise how could creation be good?
I agree that not all good requires suffering. But for people in this age, for most good fruit, suffering is part of the package, both in being disciplined ourselves, and in helping others.
quote:
Lee: I think the usual meaning of grief does apply, though, in Gen. 6:2.
Sahid: I don't know no Hebrew. If you do, tell me what the word translated grief means, but in context is sure sounds like sadness from creation not behaving like He wanted it to.
Yes, I agree! Just not frustration though, for God will be "all in all" (1 Cor. 15:28).
Blessings,
Lee
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"Even now we seem to have dim glimpses into regions
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Sahid
Megistered Rember
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 2013
| Posted 8/16/2004 8:47 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Lee: By "frustrated" I mean an unfulfilled desire or purpose, even a small one. If it's a purpose, then frustration means failure, I would say.
Sahid: I don't know no Hebrew. If you do, tell me what the word translated grief means, but in context is sure sounds like sadness from creation not behaving like He wanted it to.
Lee: Yes, I agree! Just not frustration though, for God will be "all in all" (1 Cor. 15:28).
So, even with univeralism and your definition, God is frustrated for now. quote:
Romans 8:30-31 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. What, then, shall we say in response to this?
As far as I can tell, this verse says that God is the only one involved in salvation, that it's not up to us at all. If this verse was all there was to Romans, I'd have to agree with you. However, Paul again and again points out that we must respond to God. If I were to write a paper about our legal system concerning murder, I would go into details like the statutes, common law, precedence, judges, attorneys, defendants, accusers, and juries. After all that I could say that murderers are sent to prision and possibly executed. But that statement is not entirely accurate. Some murderers never go to prision. But because I've already dealt with the pertainent issues, it's ok for me to make that statement, because the reader now knows where I'm comming from.
Same with Romans. If we read Romans up to chapter 8, we know that a response is necessary for salvation. Verse 29 and 30 are dealing with Gods faithfulness in holding up His end. Unfortunately, I can't get to my Bible right now because... well who cares? But, what about "If you confess and believe"? What about Jesus Himself saying, "Repent"? That's something that is up to us, not God. I think Paul covers our end of things well enough in the rest of Romans. To say there is no part for human choice in salvation is to contradict much of Romans. Maybe I understand you wrong, but didn't you say that we can't make free choices until after salvation?
Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre | | Back to Top | | |
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billzbob
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 82
| Posted 8/17/2004 11:08 AM (GMT -6) | |
I don't see the problem, Tom. The end just summarized the story. If you don't understand the summary, ignore it, and stick to the story.
quote:
Originally posted by billzbob
Our pastor, Harry, an alumn of Calvin Seminary (Grand Rapids, Mich.) once recounted how an old and well respected seminary professor of his had told a class of first year students that: "Any thing that ends in an 'IST' or an 'ISM' is idolotry." A hand in the back inquired whether that included "Calvinism." Snickers followed, we might presume. But whatever... The old and well respected seminary professor merely answered "ANY."
God is not an idea of ours. ANY of ours.
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feelinahole
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 8/17/2004 12:11 PM (GMT -6) | | | God is an idea of ours, but how we view him is. | | Back to Top | | |
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 8/17/2004 3:37 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi everyone,
quote:
Lee: Yes, I agree! Just not frustration though, for God will be "all in all" (1 Cor. 15:28).
Sahid: So, even with univeralism and your definition, God is frustrated for now.
Well, I believe the path is part of the plan, too!
1 Corinthians 10:6 Now these things occurred as examples …
Romans 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
quote:
Romans 8:30-31 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. What, then, shall we say in response to this?
Sahid: If we read Romans up to chapter 8, we know that a response is necessary for salvation. Verse 29 and 30 are dealing with Gods faithfulness in holding up His end. … what about "If you confess and believe"? What about Jesus Himself saying, "Repent"? That's something that is up to us, not God. I think Paul covers our end of things well enough in the rest of Romans. To say there is no part for human choice in salvation is to contradict much of Romans.
Yes, human choice has a part in salvation, but not free human choice, I believe. We have to put in these verses too, that explain the choice:
Isaiah 63:17 Why, O Lord, do you make us wander from your ways and harden our hearts so we do not revere you?
Psalm 22:9 ... you made me trust in you even at my mother's breast.
Acts 16:14 The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul's message.
quote:
Maybe I understand you wrong, but didn't you say that we can't make free choices until after salvation?
Yes, that is my position...
Blessings,
Lee
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 8/18/2004 2:49 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sahid
quote:
Romans 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
There must be more to this verse than meets the eye, because on the face of it, it contradicts itself. How can you make something disobey you? If you succeed, they are still obeying you. Unless God is sado-masicistic (I can't spell, and actually it's just one of those. I just get 'em confused.), then it makes no sense to say He made someone disobey, because they would end up doing what He really wanted. Could "bound" be like what "gave them over" was in chapter one? I honestly don't know. Just asking.
As long as I've been reading the Bible I've naturally understood Rom. 11.32 to mean God adopted an approach, a way, of relating to us and transferring his life to us which doesn't play favorites and which requires that sin be dealt with regardess of race, calling, status, or accomplisment.
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 8/18/2004 2:51 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by TGB
quote:
Originally posted by Sahid
quote:
Romans 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
There must be more to this verse than meets the eye, because on the face of it, it contradicts itself. How can you make something disobey you? If you succeed, they are still obeying you. Unless God is sado-masicistic (I can't spell, and actually it's just one of those. I just get 'em confused.), then it makes no sense to say He made someone disobey, because they would end up doing what He really wanted. Could "bound" be like what "gave them over" was in chapter one? I honestly don't know. Just asking.
As long as I've been reading the Bible I've naturally understood Rom. 11.32 to mean God adopted an approach, a way, of relating to us and transferring his life to us which doesn't play favorites and which requires that sin be dealt with regardess of race, calling, status, or accomplisment.
Also, the whole chapter of Romans 11 could be read for it's context.
Israel's rejection of the cornerstone became an opportunity for the Gentiles.
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