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joneames
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 21
| Posted 8/18/2004 3:49 PM (GMT -6) |   | Hi
I've only posted here a few times a while back. I have a number of thoughts that have been nagging at me for a while. Perhaps someone in here shares the same, or has thought this way.
1. I come from a calvinist home, where both parents were calvinist and still are calvinist. I have watched many friends disown and hate God because of the concept of him that was taught to them (calvinism)
including myself. I've met many people who disagree with this system, but few if any who have recieved as much damage from it as I have. I don't know if I am just weird, but the system really has screwed up God for me. I have argued with my dad for 2-3 years now, and sometimes I get somewhere, but he still holds onto it (although it's been seriously undermined by people he's debated and talked with)
I've come to the conclusion that calvinism gives people a very twisted sense of security, power, and in fact becomes a part of their identity. In short (and I hope I don't offend anyone here) it seems as if every person I met who bought into calvinism were in ways neurotic, had past hurt in their life, had serious issues, or had rebounded from an oppposite extreme theology. Because I associated and still do so many theological buzz words "grace, soveriegnty, doctrine, righteousness, repentence," with the calvinist taint on them, I have put down my Bible for a while, and hope to read it much later with new perspective. Well all this stuff about me is to get to a point. (points) And they are:
1. It seems that not enough is being done about calvinism today, type it in on an internet search and you'll get a ratio of 5:1 favorable to ufavorable sites. Type open theism in and you'll get thousands of sites about false doctrine, heresies, etc... I was interested to see that John Sanders and James White debated open theism, but then watched it and Sanders didn't even prepare for the interview! I mean to me who knows better it didn't reflect on the theology, but for people out there, who knows... I mean I just think it's time that someone really took some big calvinist names on in formal debate, books or something. I would love to see someone like Boyd debate James White, not because I love argumentation, but because my dad is on the brink of his calvinism falling apart, and that may just do it.
Boyd, I think is the first popular writer/pastor I've seen who has been able to get inside the calvinist system and refute it from every which way. I mean you have guys like Dave Hunt who have never been exposed to calvinism until he decides to take on one of it's lifelong proponetts (James White) Dave saw the horror of the system (and rightly so) but he just answered calvinist claims without ever really understanding why they make those claims. Having talked with my dad and others for years now, it's safe to say that I KNOW why and how people believe calvinism. I mean I've seen better insights into the calvinist system here then I've seen in major books, and in formal debates.
2. This is the arguemnt I proposed to my dad. See if anyone (if there are any calvinists here) can answer it. If everyone is born totally depraved (not willing nor able to accept the gospel) and (in the calvinist system) God has predetermined who he will "make able" , then why would he even create the non elect. And how can you not call that grossly unjust. My dad (as most calvinists do) answers back, well no one deserves heaven. I said sure no one deserves heaven. BUT If we are to be born on this planet (through no choice of our own) do we deserve a CHANCE to escape hell? He responded with a minute of silence. Then he said calivnism does not rule out the chance, all are responsible, no one goes to hell unwillingly. So I said ..so everyone in hell right now is there because they justly deserve it, he said "yes." I said "why"? He said because they had their chance (in fact many many chances) I said .."really"? But I thought they were totally inable to make any choice that would save them from hell?
"Son," he said "they willingly chose to reject God because their natural sinful nature is in hostility to God." Ok ..so the worst thing they ever could have done ..(in fact a terrible tragedy) was that they were born." "I suppose so", he said. A person who is given a choice between only one option A and A cannot be either be rewarded for choosing A or punished for choosing A. Cognitive dissonance! (as Boyd says) We would fire any ruler of our land (judges , presidents, supreme courts, etc..) who practiced the kind of justice that calvinism attributes to God, yet God is ok for doing it?
2. Is anyone else in here somewhat inclusivist. I've read John Sanders on this and I'd have to say I agree. It seems to me that lots of people have missed the point of the Bible. If I was God, and loved Humanity, and I wanted relationships of love,...let's say I wrote a book about myself, a book of guidance, but all the while what I mainly wanted was real interactive personal relationships..wouldn't I be kinda wondering that I gave these people a book about myself and they've so obsessed themselves with the book that they forgot that I'm right there staring them in the face. I've been to one too many churches to know this, sad, depressed people, people who to me seemed to have totally missed the point of why we're on this planet, I kinda want to say..oh my gosh..lighten up! I think the Bible is about God )Jesus Christ), but what is better or more important, the person Himself or a book about Him. I think people have taken a drastically wrong perspective on the Bible. And what is with these churches (including a recent one I went to) that stand up and soberly read some disaster prophecy in the Old Testament and then conclude "and the Lord smoteth the temples of the slain children for generations, amen." I mean, I don't know how to put it in words, but it seems like these people have missed the point of what their reading, and I can't help but imagine God kinda rolling his eyes, even a bit amused. When ever I talk about inclusivism, my mom answers back "no name under heaven and earth but Jesus Christ will save you etc.. to which I reply..well if Jesus was real...and God is real, isn't he bigger then a name applied to him? I mean if someone in some remote island acts like Jesus did, and never knows the name Jesus Christ, isn't that still praiseworthy? I mean I can't see God on his throne saying "depart from me you non western, non church attending heathen, you did not get my doctrine right, I never knew you." It seems to me like I've seen the greatest acts of love, charity, and kindness outside of the church then in, and yet these people in buildings every Sunday talk about evangelizing. Please someone correct my perceptions if I'm wrong, it seems to me like the church for the most part is a failed institution. It's not longer (or was it ever) a place for genuinely wounded , damaged people. It seems to me that the church's primary purposes saving lost souls, helping others, loving others, is now something they collect money to sponsor missionaries to do. It's rather ironic that an orginization who set out with that goal, now only have a small poition of their members actually doing that, and they pay them lip service in the announcments portion of the section. It also seems to me that the church has pushed away and disegregated the rest of the people on this earth, and tend to take an elitist view of others, which is entirely opposite of Christ's attitude. I have many other questions and thoughts, but have gone on plenty long enough, I'll leave them for next post. I love what you're all doing here, very interesting discussions!
Jon | | Back to Top | | |
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 8/18/2004 4:21 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi Jon, and welcome...
I'm a Calvinist, who believes we may hope that all will be saved (see my "Universalism?" thread over in the "Theological Q&A" section). But I believe that all who come to God come through faith in Christ. But this means a relationship with him, not merely assent to facts about him:
Psalm 22:10 From birth I was cast upon you; from my mother's womb you have been my God.
If the smallest infants can respond to God, and can even depend on God, and belong to him (without a written, spoken message), then other people can, too, I think.
Psalm 71:6 From birth I have relied on you; you brought me forth from my mother's womb. I will ever praise you.
Blessings,
Lee
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"Even now we seem to have dim glimpses into regions
from which we receive no word to bring away" (George MacDonald) | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 8/18/2004 5:27 PM (GMT -6) | | Lee: I'm a Calvinist...I believe that all who come to God come through faith in Christ.
Tom: Hi Jon. I hear ya. Both Boyd and Pinnock were Calvinists. I never was. Jon, you know Calvinism enough to know that what Lee believes that's NOT made explicit is that he believes the faith through which the elect come is given unconditionally by God to only some and that it is irresistible. Nuff said.
Lee: Psalm 22:10 From birth I was cast upon you; from my mother's womb you have been my God. If the smallest infants can respond to God, and can even depend on God, and belong to him (without a written, spoken message), then other people can, too, I think.
Tom: Amazing interepretation. Way off, but very cool.
Lee: Psalm 71:6 From birth I have relied on you; you brought me forth from my mother's womb. I will ever praise you.
Tom: Is there NO poetry in your bones whatsoever Lee? You actually think that when his mother gave her last push and David poked his head out of his mother's vagina that he right then made a conscious, morally responsible choice to place his faith in God?
Please tell us you're not saying this is so.
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
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Sahid
Megistered Rember
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 2013
| Posted 8/18/2004 7:52 PM (GMT -6) | | To me love is everything. So if I accept Calvinism (that God decides everything that we do), I must believe that God will have us all be saved. What Lee said. The problem is Hell. Jesus believed in Hell apparently. If it's just a metaphor, what's it a metaphor for, and why doesn't the Bible come out and say it's a metaphor?
So, have you read Letters from a Skeptic? Boyd deals with just about every angle, and though it is from the perspective of dealing with a nonbeliever, it may address your situation.
I wish it wasn't this way sometimes, but reason isn't enough. It has to be real. Even with people who are very intelligent. Reason is often key, but there are huge emotional issues as well involved with abandoning long held beliefs. It has to hit home that lives hang in the balance. For many the Calvinist God, responsible for (or in control of) everything, has for no reason pitted Himself against many people. He has created them bad, and takes out His anger on them. When this is the picture of Jesus people have, it is no wonder that many can't stand Him. What's more, many Christians behave like this Jesus treating others as inherently bad rather than with love. This is what really does it.
And don't give up hope. Have you heard Warmth by Incubus? Not a Christian band, they use word's that make many youth groups hold cd burning parties, but that's one @*#%&^!$+% good song. Not everyone is so "messed" up. There are good people who have met Jesus and have been freed from the perfectionism by being remade in Him. There are people who love first. I, like you, had almost given up hope. Ask God to introduce you to some of those people. I'll ask too. Don't worry.
P.S. Where in KC? My family's from Gladstone and North K.C. Go Chiefs!
Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre | | Back to Top | | |
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joneames
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 21
| Posted 8/18/2004 10:54 PM (GMT -6) | | Sahid:
Although I still do have a somewhat unsetteling view of hell (I don;t understand it) I 'm willing to trust that God is good, and who goes and who doesn't and why they go , well I don't know if I'll ever believe that anyone on this earth deserves everlasting torment, but anyway..my point was that the topic of hell is bad enough without the calvinist coming in and adding limited atonement and unconditional election to complicate it, (not to mention give an athiest another reason to hate religion and God)
And I live in North Kansas City right near the N KC Hospital. You don't currently live in KC do you? As for the chiefs...HE** YEAH!!! GO CHIEFS!!! If they have even a slightly better defense this year, then lookout. I smell super bowl! (but we'll see, I'll keep my hopes up.) Thanks for your reply. To everyone else: feel free to chime in.
Jon | | Back to Top | | |
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Similitude
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
| Posted 8/19/2004 2:00 AM (GMT -6) | | Jon,
I think there are folks on this forum who believe "hell" is only age-abiding and not eternal. Maybe another thread should be started, or maybe there is an old one I don't know about. But to your 1st point: I've found that the Calvinists (off this forum) that I know simply want to escape FEELINGS of guilt and fear. Guilt, because, per calvinism, even their disobedience is foreordained and it glorifies God - hence no guilt feelings necessary. Fear, because, per calvinism, if you go to war (just an example), your fate is absolutely determined anyway so why fear - just do it?
So I suspect there is something to your belief about there being a particular psychological profile for a lot of calvinists. Not all, but a number of them.
wjs | | Back to Top | | |
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rossfadeinout
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 428
| Posted 8/19/2004 4:03 AM (GMT -6) | | Hey Jon,
Man, I feel your pain! I wasn't raised in a Calvinistic home, but I encountered it in college (I went to Union University, a Southern Baptist school in Tennesee) All of the theology professors (well, almost all) were Calvinist... And all of my friends who studied theology and were thoughtful were five pointers.
It seemed to be the only option for someone who was an intellectually viable Christian. AND IT FREAKED ME OUT! Because I could not get past the simple argument that if God ordains EVERYTHING then if someone rejects God it is because God determined it. And then he sends them to Hell for it????
Thankfully God did not let me give up hope. I went to the library and checked out Grace Unlimited edited by Clark Pinnock. This book introduced me to several theologians who believed in God's universal love. From there I just started reading everything I could by these authors or works they cited. This led me to Read "The Openness of God" and from there I started researching the Open View which led me here to this discussion board.
And I would like to thank people like Doc, Tom, AlanRhoda, Iconoclast, Meph, Modes, and may others who showed me that people who thought deeply about their faith do not have to be Calvinists. This board really has helped me out.
Good to see you here,
Ross
"Let us remember how common the folly is of going from one faulty extreme into the opposite." -Thomas Reid | | Back to Top | | |
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joneames
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 21
| Posted 8/19/2004 7:34 AM (GMT -6) | | This brings me to another point about doctrine/beliefs. My old pastor for instance would say he's a calvinist (he holds to the 5 points, reformed theology whatever) Then I on the other hand would say I take a open theist poistion (or something very similar) He on the one had feels the need to persuade his congregation and outsiders of the "truths" of calvinism, and I on the other hand have never shared these particular beliefs (open theism) with anyone , nor do I feel very compelled to. Which brings me to my point:
Many people out there have labeled open theism heresy, false teaching, whatever. To them, it's a HUGE deal, some belief has crept in and threatened the centuries of determinism!
I tell my dad in our talks that he can't look at the Bible with out calvinist bias, calvinist presupostitions. He tells me , well the same with you, only it's open theism. I beg to differ. It was I who saw through the calvinis system and chose a worldview with an open future, less determination, etc.. I did not start quoting open theists everywhere, or just go from one box of thinking to another box. It seems to me that those on this board and others I've met (who are much different theologically than calvinists) tend to take a "becoming" approach towards theology. Meaning they are always thinking outside the box, looking at things from different angles, rarely saying "this is the way it is and THAT"S THAT. It seems to me that people here realize that theology and phillosophy is our best way of speculating towards truth, but that it is very subjective to the individual, experience, etc..
My point is that when my "doctrine" or what I'm holding to at the time gets threatened or questioned , well...I could really care less. I love the stimulation and I love a good debate, but the doctrine is not part of me, I don't take it personally, I'm (and I've seen others here too) able to see the truth in a matter without having to appear to come out on top. Basically my doctrine (in this case: open theism) is not dogmatic, I do not push it on others or claim it as fact set in stone , or say that anyone who strays off the open theism path is in serious errir, or heresy, or whatever. My "doctrine" happens to be my general mindset, I tend to live ( :) and I think everyone on earth does, as if nothing in the future is set in stone, as if prayer really changes things, as if my choices really matter, as if God really loves everyone) My doctrine is my outlook on life, I don't need to put it in 5 points, systemetize it, convert others, because I'm more than confident that the key elements of it are true, ( I mean who lives as if all has been preordained) This is the first tipoff (clue) to me that the calvinist is in error. They seem to be ultra defensive about it. They not only need to reasurre each other constantly of it (hence a month long wednesday night "doctrines of grace seminar") , but they also preach it as dogma, and consider any other way less than acceptable. My dad , for the life of him, cannot figure out why I'm not defensive about my beliefs. He cannot figure out how I can take a different stance towards doctrine. And that is: not making the doctrtine part of myself. Now don't get me wrond , I have certain parameters that change very little (ie. God is good, Jesus is Lord, the cross etc..) but as for ethics, metaphysics, salvation, etc..) my beliefs are always "becoming". I think that's how a christian should be. Calvinists act as if all God ever needed to reveal happened 4 centuries ago in Europe. Hence a very static, undynamic sytemetized theology. To conclude, I'll use an example I just thought of. My dad trying to convince me that everything has been predetermined, or that we're totally depraved, etc.. is like trying to convince me that water isn't H20, or that we're not breating oxygen, or that gravity doesn't exist. I tell him, you and I both live contrary to what calvinism teaches. You may intellectually argue it all you want, but you cannot live it out. "water isn't H20!" "Well buddy, you find me some water that isn't composed of hydrogen and oxygen, and well I'll join you. My point is that calvinism kind of creates a split in your beign, your experience dictates a world ( a reality) opposite that of calvinism, yet you intelectually assent to a worldview that denys reality. Hence, I think the greatest ally we have when talking to calvinist is a very solid assuring confidence that both of us live as if the future was open, our choices matter, God's universal love. So all this to say, it seems that calvinist have let their doctine become apart of them in an unsetteling way that is not easy to deal with. I happen to think that God really doesn't care, and loves my dad despite his weird ideas, but my dad can never look at it that way, which has led me overtime to think "man there's something disturbing about having over 25 books on the chapter of Romans.
blesings
Jon | | Back to Top | | |
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sometimesisquint
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 91
| Posted 8/22/2004 4:02 PM (GMT -6) | | TOTALLY OFF TOPIC...all apologies.
quote:
Originally posted by Sahid
P.S. Where in KC? My family's from Gladstone and North K.C. Go Chiefs!
I, too, being from Mizzou have strong, strong ties to the Chiefs.
quote:
I live in Waco, but just about everyone in my family except me and my sister have lived in KC at some point. Just a little defense. Just a little. Almost makes me want Marty back.
Don't ever wish something so crude. The old Marty? Sure, possibly. Although, that would mean that Priest would turn into a fading version of Barry Word or Christian Okoye.
I'll take Dick Vermeil any day--tears and all. Besides I think the presence (and philosophy) of Gunther Cunningham will pay huge dividends on the defensive side. From what I've read/seen, the players are already psyched about playing so "free" in that system. So, it seems Gunther has Open Theist tendencies.
However, Marty would surely bomb us back to the middle ages. Citing Calvin he'd conservatively ram God's preconceived plan for the team down a drooling fan base's throat and convert an offensive powerhouse into the San Diego Chargers.
But, that's just one man's opinion. 
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You may now return to your regularly scheduled discussion. 
"What's partner yoga?"
"It's when you're two with the universe."
-My Friend Keith
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When life gives you dish rags, you make...a kite that won't fly in the rain. | | Back to Top | | |
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