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cbost6421
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 65
| Posted 8/30/2004 4:47 AM (GMT -6) |   | Some time ago I was compelled to study Free-Will vs. Predestination by some reformed guys in the BSU I was president of. Two years and 20+ books later I am a full-fledged Open Theist.
More over I have recently used OVT to share Christ with people who saw God as unbelievable b/c of Church Hypocrisy. Several of my friends and coworkers have expressed interest in my views B/C of love and freedom.
I went to Northwestern College (a.k.a. John Piper's School)to play football and found (not surprisingly) that I didn't like it. BUt I did find one thign I liked, My Girlfriend, Emily. I was more of a classical Arminian at the time and she still is. She wants to hold onto foreknowledge in her beliefs b/c of the "trust" issue. Because of my recent interest, God has called me into ministry to start a church and share the Open View. This church would be heavily grounded in apologetics and would try to reach peoplethat traditional churches don't reach (Gothics, Skaters, Skeptics, homosexuals etc.)She is a youth ministry major and wants to do this for the rest of her life (well, at least until she has kids.)She feels that "God has not called her to the Open View" and that she could not share in this vision of a church, for that reason alone. On the other hand, she said she wouldn't respect me if I abandoned my views b/c they have been such a big part in keeping me to believe.
SO since she is still the most incredible girl I've ever met, and I think that her other qualities would make a great ministry partner. I still want her to be my girlfriend, moreover I have previously been ring shopping. But we decided to take a "two-week" break to pray and sort things out.
Y'all have any advice on how I can save my relationship?
stu.westga.edu/~cbost1/openviewtheism.html
"those who pray truly are theologians and those who are theologians pray truly"
-Evagrios The Solidary | | Back to Top | | |
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Sahid
Megistered Rember
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 2013
| Posted 8/30/2004 10:00 AM (GMT -6) | | While I would definitely classify myself an open theist, I'm not sure that making a strictly open theist church is such a great idea. We avoid lots of problems when we resolve simply to know Christ and him crucified. If someone has questions or complaints with Christianity, I think it's completely cool to let them know what you think, but going around trying to start conversations about open theism is not the best tactic. Eating with people and helping them take care of their needs is a better strategy. If discussing open theism is useful, then go for it, but most people just want to experience love. Proofs for the existance of divine love are secondary.
I bet your girlfriend would go for a chruch that just displayed Christ crucified. That church would be humble, knowing that it deserved what Jesus got. That church would also boldly overflow with love, knowing personally the amazing love displayed by Jesus. I bet she wouldn't even mind if you expressed your theological views in a loving way and at an appropriate time within the context of the church, remembering that not everyone has to agree. We've got to remember that everything (theology, denomination, worship style) is secondary compared to love, and Jesus will accept anyone who will give himself to him.
BTW, would your girlfriend, as she is right now (not her potential), be a good long term roomate if she were a guy? Would you get along? I'm not implying anything. I just wished a had asked myself that question.
Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre | | Back to Top | | |
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rossfadeinout
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 428
| Posted 8/30/2004 10:17 AM (GMT -6) | | Hey there Cbost,
I'm in somewhat of a similar position as you are in. I'm actually getting married this weekend to a great girl. When I try to explain that I believe that God knows the future as possible and not actual, its just too much of a paradigm shift for her to accept. She is a firm believer in the reality of human free will, I guess she would be classified as a classical Arminian.
But for me the dividing line in the debate is Theistic determinists and free-will Theist. While i think that my fiancee would not have an adequate response as to what would ground God's foreknowledge of future contengencies, I know that she believes that the goal of creation is for us to enter freely into a loving relationship with our creator.
As far as a church preaching exclusively the open view, i have downloaded and listened to a ton of Dr. Boyd's sermons at Woodland Hills and i have never heard him preach about the open view. Now I have heard him preach about themes that would lead logically in my mind to the Open View, but Boyd's sermons (well, all that i have heard)would be accepted by any Arminian-- classical,Molinist, or Open View.
Sahid is on the right track; a church that presents the good news of Christ's outrageous love would be one that all free will theists could worship and serve at.
Peace,
Ross
"Let us remember how common the folly is of going from one faulty extreme into the opposite." -Thomas Reid | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 8/30/2004 12:00 PM (GMT -6) | | Chuck-
Haven't read the other responses (sorry). On one hand, I want to argue that competing understandings of providence shouldn't divide Christians so deeply. Something is wrong with us all if open theists and determinists and Arminians can't fellowship, share faith and family, and worship together. They will know you are my disciples by your love. Right. On the other hand I question whether or not a relationship like marriage, one that brings two people closer in vocation, life, family, and ministry than any other doesn't require more agreement and harmony. It's your call Chuck, but if you're adjusting THIS ministry decision in preferance to her theology, you'll be doing it a lot. Get used to it. If you can live with that, fine. Sure, there MAY be times she'll defer to you in some important ministry decision. But from what you've described it looks like she draws the line hard and fast on this issue. If she doesn't feel called to a ministry vision that's openness oriented, how's she gonna feel called to a PERSON (i.e., you) who is openness oriented?
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 8/30/2004 5:31 PM (GMT -6) | | Who cares what she thinks, Chuck, is she hot?
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 8/31/2004 4:04 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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Alan Rhoda
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 680
| Posted 8/31/2004 1:53 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by cbost6421
She feels that "God has not called her to the Open View"
Hi Chuck,
I don't have a lot of keen personal advice to offer, but I am somewhat bothered by the above quote. What does it mean for someone to be "called" to hold a viewpoint, whether it be open theism, hypercalvinism, communism, or what have you? Frankly, I haven't the faintest idea. Your girlfriend's invoking God's "calling" in this context seems to me completely out of place. I get the impression that she makes the appeal to God's calling because she doesn't want to think about the issue -- it seems too threatening. Passing the buck onto God is her way to avoid having to deal with the issue.
If we categorize people into thinkers and feelers, it seems to me that you are more of a thinker type. If pressed on the open theism, I'm sure you could quickly marshal a number of arguments in your defense. Emily, in contrast, seems to me more of a feeler. She seems to avoid intellectual grappling with issues that make her feel uncomfortable. If my assessment is correct, then I would advise you to carefully think about your relationship. Opposites do often attract, but they also have more conflicts down the road. My advice: if you consider yourself a strong thinker, marry someone who leans in that direction. Moreover, marry someone who tends to think along the same lines. If not, you'll eventually wind up frustrated in that area of your relationship. If you're willing to live with that, fine. Maybe her other qualities more than make up for your differences. Whatever the case, in any committed relationship, not just our relationship with our Lord, you should carefully count the cost ahead of time.
At any rate, I concur with what others have already said. You shouldn't center your vision of ministry on the open view, but on God's costly redeeming love in Christ. Perhaps she would be able to share in your vision of a church if that vision were somewhat refocused.
God bless,
Alan | | Back to Top | | |
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Alan Rhoda
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 680
| Posted 8/31/2004 1:56 PM (GMT -6) | | Ross,
Congrats on your upcoming wedding.
Alan | | Back to Top | | |
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JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 8/31/2004 2:12 PM (GMT -6) | | cbost6421,
As far as a way to save your relationship, I don't think there is a technique that anyone can offer you. As you probably know, one of the central emphases of the OV is persuasion, and that love must be chosen. That being the case, you have to win her heart, not win the argument, if possible.
Additionally, I think we need to always keep in mind things that we consider essential as opposed to those which are peripheral. I think the OV is not an essential issue as far as Christian fellowship goes. But I think Alan is on to something. A marriage obviously needs more harmony than any other relationship.
For instance, my wife and I disagree on a few things, and she is much more of a "feeler," while I am a "thinker." At times, she has responded to my attempts at reasoning about God, "You think everything boils down to logic." (This always elicits a chuckle from me, and then she starts chuckling too, because she knows I am generally unable to be affected by irrational "arguments"). Though we disagree on a few (relatively minor) things, and she thinks I "try too hard to figure everything out," we definitely agree on things that we both consider essential to our common Christian faith.
Anyway, this all underscores the reason why I generally am in favor of engagements being at least one year in duration; this is sufficient time to work through a lot of very important issues between the couple. It seems to me that this "time-out" period you two are going through can be a very good thing. It doesn't sound to me like you two are ready for marriage yet from the sounds of it, though that could be possible with more time for your relationship to develop. One good thing about disagreements and disputes in an unmarried relationship is that they provide a good test of how well you two can work out differences, and whether or not the relationship has any further potential.
The most important thing I find in counseling married couples who are having trouble now is something that is very easy to hide or overlook in a short courtship--selfishness. You really need to know that the person you are committing your life to is doing the same for you, and that God's love is the glue that holds you together.
Anyway, that my 2-1/2 c.
P.S.: My wife and I were both raised in classical Arminian backgrounds, though I had absolutely no problem with the Open View from the first time I read about it. My wife, not being a rigorously logical person, gets the basic gist of the OV when I explain it to her, and she kind of shrugs her shoulders at it. She believes that prayer changes things, etc., but she's not sure about the issue of foreknowledge per se. (It doesn't help that our pastor is still mired in classical Arminian philosophy with respect to foreknowledge). Anyway, I certainly have found Arminians easier to get along with than Calvinists. I find that the basic Arminian distinction (libertarian free will), when taken to its logical end, requires Open Theism. I further find that any Christian who affirms that prayer changes things is a defacto OVer, however much he may try to deny it.
http://revivaltheology.net | | Back to Top | | |
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BADGERVOL
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 27
| Posted 9/3/2004 2:27 AM (GMT -6) | | Sisters of Cain,
I'm sitting here reading all of these deep thoughts about this relationship and what not, and BAM, I read your comment asking whether she is hot.
I about fell off my seat laughing my butt off! Thanks for the humor of the day. That was great.
Badger | | Back to Top | | |
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 9/3/2004 2:41 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by BADGERVOL
Sisters of Cain,
I'm sitting here reading all of these deep thoughts about this relationship and what not, and BAM, I read your comment asking whether she is hot.
I about fell off my seat laughing my butt off! Thanks for the humor of the day. That was great.
Badger
No, thank YOU.
I always feel encouraged when I see young'uns, like Chuck, with the correct view of God coming into ministry.
whew! That's enough sincerity for one day...
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