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| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > The raging debate continues here... > Is the OT view really a "logical" view? | Forum Quick Jump
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 9/6/2004 3:19 PM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
Originally posted by Sahid
quote:
Originally posted by lock
The OT view creates a God who knows future possibilities but yet leaves the future open for man to ultimately decide.
But the open view does not say that. You would be entirely correct if the open view said that or led to that. But it don't! God is ultimately in control. Certain things are up to us like whether we choose to obey Jesus' command to "Follow me", but the future as a whole is still God's to control. All who accept his protection and love will be protected and loved. His providence is unlimited, unconditional, and unbeatable, but not overpowering. He still lets us keep our personhood, because he loves us. Even in the open view the vast majority of the future is still God;s to control. But here's the disclaimer: I only speak for myself not other open theists.
I do not deny that God allows us a personhood, how else will we recognized others in heaven? Your post above speaks well of believers, but God's creation involves all mankind, whom He created in His image.
quote:
His providence is unlimited, unconditional, and unbeatable, but not overpowering.
This statement contradicts itself because God's providence is unlimited except when it conflicts with man's free will to chose God or not. I do not deny man his free will, I only claim that the scriptures teach that without God's influence, amn will not seek God nor could he ever please God.
When I use the word "possibilities", that is becasue I have read it in posts that defend the open future of the the OT view. My disclaimer is that I am precenting my beliefs as opposed to the OT view, they are not meant in anyway to attack others' beliefs. I believe that everyone who contributes to this website is exactly where God wants them to be in their walk.
His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. | | Back to Top | | |
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 9/6/2004 3:42 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sisters of Cain
quote:
Originally posted by lock
By reducing God's knowledge of the future from His purposes to only possibilities, you have successfully reduced His glory.
A god who has to control ALL variables in order to get ANYTHING done is NOT a glorious god.
On earth, we get things accomplished without having total control of all the variables.
Why you think an inept god, one who can't accomplish anything unless he controls EVERYTHING, is glorious is beyond me.
your god, a football coach who can only win if he's using robots
our God, a football coach able to win despite having a team of dunderheads playing for Him
The muslims are as fatalistic as the calvinists. They believe EVERYTHING that happens is allah's will. Does that make allah "glorious"?
I have a hard time picturing God with a pot belly and wearing Bike coaching shorts. I don't think any of your scenarios fit my belief. If the coach were a spirit and was able to make a home in the players, influencing them to complete his purpose, plus, he would not only influence his players but also the other team, the refs and the spectators for that matter. I think a God who completes His divine will no matter what mankind may have planned is glorious. Please reference the scriptures I gave in my earlier post. As far as what muslims believe about allah, from what I know, everything is earned in their religion not given as a gift so I do not bother learning about it. You like to put a label on me to understand me better, but I am not a calvinist and I think most calvinists would not claim me. I am a student of the bible. I am not interested in man's theology, just the bible in it's purest sense. I also do not claim to know everything and God brings me through much error at times to remind me of my place without Him. I have never claimed man is a robot. God gives man his chance to prove he can obtain God's glory and history has shown that the bible speaks truth that man will not seek after God and not be able to please HIm without His influence.
His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. | | Back to Top | | |
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feelinahole
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 9/6/2004 3:43 PM (GMT -6) | | Lock: you need to reread what I wrote. My point was what kind of God is God if he predestined these things for his own glory? There is a difference between something being his will and he allowing something (or allowing the choice of something). You seem to be saying that it is God's will that these things happen, that they originate with God. That they somehow bring out God's glory. My response if wonder if in so wanting God to control everything, a person ruins God's intergrity as God. God ends up being responsible for everything, including evil. How then can we trust God? How then can we look up to God, a God who wishes and wills for little children to be tortured for his glory.
If you are saying God allows such things, I would tenatively agree with you. But then God is not controlling such things, because it is humans who are doing them of their free will.
So what is it for you? Does God will these things for his own glory? Or does he allow them, and therefore is not responsible for the evil on this planet? | | Back to Top | | |
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feelinahole
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 9/6/2004 3:45 PM (GMT -6) | | | BTW, Lock, I do not think God is so powerless that he has limited control. I believe God is so powerful that he doesn't have to act like a paranoid dictator and control everything. I think he is so powerful and so secure in his Godhood that he can share some of his power with us humans. Now that is true power! | | Back to Top | | |
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feelinahole
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 9/6/2004 3:50 PM (GMT -6) | | | Lock: I think each of us are interested in what the Bible says. Yet a person cannot read the Bible without ones own perconceptions, nor without the history of the church impacting how it is viewed. You may not be interested in "man's theology," but you are impacted by it just the same (in fact, you could not arrive at many of the conclusions you come to without teachers of the word, which the Bible commends). | | Back to Top | | |
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 9/6/2004 4:01 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by feelinahole
Lock: you need to reread what I wrote. My point was what kind of God is God if he predestined these things for his own glory? There is a difference between something being his will and he allowing something (or allowing the choice of something). You seem to be saying that it is God's will that these things happen, that they originate with God. That they somehow bring out God's glory. My response if wonder if in so wanting God to control everything, a person ruins God's intergrity as God. God ends up being responsible for everything, including evil. How then can we trust God? How then can we look up to God, a God who wishes and wills for little children to be tortured for his glory.
If you are saying God allows such things, I would tenatively agree with you. But then God is not controlling such things, because it is humans who are doing them of their free will.
So what is it for you? Does God will these things for his own glory? Or does he allow them, and therefore is not responsible for the evil on this planet?
Feelin-
If you are speaking of moral evil which is sin, then i would agree that God allows it. Sin is committed by man, but still it is not beyoond God to use this sin to meet His purposes, such as judgments brought against the people of Israel. God does bring about "evil" things such as forces of nature sometimes to complete His purposes. The "evil" spirit that torture Saul was sent out by God. The judgment brought against Egypt is describes as "sore" or raa (evil) even though they were righteous judgments. I am not a Calvinist. I do not claim that God uses sin towards His glory. Sin is the evidence that man cannot save himself, the evidence of his poor condition due to the weakness of the flesh. God uses sin and the suffering that is produced by it as comparison to His perfect and complete love. In my view evil and sin are limited and have a purpose, in the OT view there is no purpose for sin and evil and they are eternal because a majority of mankind will be seperated from God for eternity, due to the choice they made.
"Seeing that out of Him and through Him and for Him is ALL." (Rom. 11:36).
His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. | | Back to Top | | |
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 9/7/2004 4:12 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
If the coach were a spirit and was able to make a home in the players, influencing them to complete his purpose, plus, he would not only influence his players but also the other team, the refs and the spectators for that matter.
So this world and the spiritual warfare that Paul talks about
is like the WWF, fake.
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 9/7/2004 8:23 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by feelinahole
BTW, Lock, I do not think God is so powerless that he has limited control. I believe God is so powerful that he doesn't have to act like a paranoid dictator and control everything. I think he is so powerful and so secure in his Godhood that he can share some of his power with us humans. Now that is true power!
So, you see God as the one portrayed in Bruce Almighty  ?
I agree that we will have a part in God's power and rule in our ressurrection life. All that we have now, while in the flesh, is due to the spirit of God making a home in us. Natural man rejects God, does not seek God, cannot please God. This is what the bible teaches, but yet you want me to believe that with all this stated man could chose God on his own and God has left him on his own to do it because He is secure about Himself?
His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. | | Back to Top | | |
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 9/7/2004 8:58 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
Sisters-
sometimes your thought process scares me.
If you played a game of chess against yourself and won, you'd think that "glorious"?
or fake?
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feelinahole
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 9/7/2004 10:53 AM (GMT -6) | | Lock: I do not believe that the Bible teaches that man cannot choose God, nor that man cannot seek God. I believe the Bible teaches that the majority of the human race chooses to follow your own path. That is what the Bible teaches.
The Bible depicts God changing his plans in response to man. Your idea that somehow God is less because he doesn't control everything is one view of scripture. It is not one that I agree that the Bible teaches.
My point is simple: A God that must control everything is not glorious. Anyone with power can do that. Big deal. But a God who doesn't need to control everything to get his will across, now that is a God I can praise. Control through power is not glorious. Its maniqulative. And it certainly isn't loving. | | Back to Top | | |
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 9/7/2004 11:15 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by feelinahole
Lock: I do not believe that the Bible teaches that man cannot choose God, nor that man cannot seek God. I believe the Bible teaches that the majority of the human race chooses to follow your own path. That is what the Bible teaches.The Bible depicts God changing his plans in response to man. Your idea that somehow God is less because he doesn't control everything is one view of scripture. It is not one that I agree that the Bible teaches.
My point is simple: A God that must control everything is not glorious. Anyone with power can do that. Big deal. But a God who doesn't need to control everything to get his will across, now that is a God I can praise. Control through power is not glorious. Its maniqulative. And it certainly isn't loving.
First, I do not think of it as God is in tight control. He allows choices that meet His purposes. God's purposes are justifiable, and sometimes He has to influence man to make the right choices. When I say man does not seek God nor His righteousness I am quoting Romans not para-phraing.
Sometimes God has a purpose for allowing a person to live in a particular sin for a time for example. God does not tempt us or cause us to sin, but we make the choice to sin when we allow our flesh to entice and draw us into sin. The flesh cannot please God, this is also a quote from Romans.
quote:
I believe the Bible teaches that the majority of the human race chooses to follow your own path. That is what the Bible teaches.
I would not disagree that God allows a majority of mankind to follow their own path. That is why there is only a small elect that will be saved for the glorious eons of the eons.
quote:
The Bible depicts God changing his plans in response to man.
Yes, the bible depicts this, to help our understanding. But God declares He is not a man that He should repent (or change His mind, Num. 23:19). When the bible depicts God as changing His mind it is a figure of speech (condescension) which explains God in human terms in order to reach our understanding.
This is what I believe, and we may have to agree to disagree. I believe that each of us are where God purposes us to be at this time.
His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. | | Back to Top | | |
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JEE
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 9/7/2004 12:00 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
Yes, the bible depicts this, to help our understanding. But God declares He is not a man that He should repent (or change His mind, Num. 23:19).
In context, Numb. 23:19 is situation-specific, or else God's word directly contradicts itself. In the passage in question, God is saying in this instance I will not change my mind; I have chosen to bless Israel, and I will NOT curse them, no matter how much Balaam and Balak might try to get me to change my mind. What this very instructive narrative teaches us is that God is fully able to make up his mind whenever he wants to. The other instance of God saying "I will not change my mind" is when Samuel begged God to change his mind in rejecting Saul as king.
quote:
This is what I believe, and we may have to agree to disagree. I believe that each of us are where God purposes us to be at this time.
So when God condemns people to hell, they are precisely where God purposes them to be at that time, right? Everything that happens is God's will in your scenario, right?
Why then does God say:
Isaiah 30:1 Oh, rebellious children, says the LORD, who carry out a plan, but not mine; who make an alliance, but against my will, adding sin to sin;
Gen. 4:7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must master it."
John 5:28 "Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29and come out--those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.
Acts 3:26 "For you first, God raised up His Servant and sent Him to bless you by turning every one of you from your wicked ways."
Matt. 1:21 "She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins."
http://revivaltheology.net | | Back to Top | | |
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Sisters of Cain
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Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 9/7/2004 4:30 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
Or, is Satan doing exactly what God has purposed for him to do?
The WWF of theology.
it's fight or fake
Ephesians 6:
10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of His might.
11 Put on the full armor of God, so that you will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil.
12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.
13 Therefore, take up the full armor of God, so that you will be able to resist in the evil day, and having done everything, to stand firm.
14 Stand firm therefore, HAVING GIRDED YOUR LOINS WITH TRUTH, and HAVING PUT ON THE BREASTPLATE OF RIGHTEOUSNESS,
15 and having shod YOUR FEET WITH THE PREPARATION OF THE GOSPEL OF PEACE;
16 in addition to all, taking up the shield of faith with which you will be able to extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one.
17 And take THE HELMET OF SALVATION, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.
18 With all prayer and petition pray at all times in the Spirit, and with this in view, be on the alert with all perseverance and petition for all the saints, | | Back to Top | | |
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feelinahole
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 9/7/2004 8:21 PM (GMT -6) | | Lock: if each of us is purposed by God to be where we are at a given time, then I can never be wrong, nor out of God's will at any time, even if I create evil.
Do you believe that God wills that I sin?
It seems to me that as I read your posts and I am getting two messages. One about God allowing and another about us doing exactly what God wants to do.
BTW, the use of Numbers 23:19 (and SAmuel) does not stack up well given that there are many many more verses in the OT that do state that God does change his mind and will. Why should I take two when there are so many more that state the opposite, Lock. It would seem to me that the reason you consider these two verses are THE answer is philsophical and from your own preconceptions of what God should be, rather than what scripture is actually saying. | | Back to Top | | |
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 9/8/2004 8:23 AM (GMT -6) | | In each specific situation, it is my belief, that God is making a general statement concerning His character, letting us know the difference between Him and man. Because God inspired many uses of condescension in the bible in order to help our understanding does not surprise me.
quote:
It seems to me that as I read your posts and I am getting two messages. One about God allowing and another about us doing exactly what God wants to do.
Feelin-
you are correct. God allows choices that are within His purposes. God obviously allowed Israel to choice to follow other gods and thus bring the curses of the law upon themselves. Even though Israel made the choice and sinned, it still is within God's purposes.
quote:
It would seem to me that the reason you consider these two verses are THE answer is philsophical and from your own preconceptions of what God should be, rather than what scripture is actually saying.
Actually I see it this way and I know that you will disagree... I do not think that it glorifies God to say that because the bible depicts God as having human attributes (human parts and emotions)that, in reality, God is like a man is those cases. No one argues the fact that it is a figure of speech when the invisible God speaks about His eye or hand or ears, but as soon as He says He repents or hates or is disappointed, He then should be brought down to our level. I honestly believe that my view honors and glorifies God more then the OT view. You can disagree and call my position illogical, but it is still my position.
quote:
The WWF of theology.
it's fight or fake
I am not claiming the fight is fake. I am saying that there is a purpose for the fight. The OT view has no real purpose for God allowing sin into the world. I have heard that God knew there was a possiblility sin might enter creation. Is there really nothing we can learn from sin? I get the feeling that the OT'ers are becoming frustrated with my position. I have learned much in the discussion on this website and it has strengthened my belief. I have no problem with the fact that you all do not agree with me and I would hope that I am allowed to disagree with the OT position as well. My disagreeing should only strengthen your beliefs as well.
His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. | | Back to Top | | |
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 9/8/2004 8:32 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
I am not claiming the fight is fake. I am saying that there is a purpose for the fight. The OT view has no real purpose for God allowing sin into the world. I have heard that God knew there was a possiblility sin might enter creation.
The possibility for sin is the price you pay for having freedom.
You give your children more and more freedom as they grow older because you want them to become mature adults able to make wise choices on their own. The price you pay for giving them more and more freedom is the possibility of them to choosing wrong.
Would your wife's love for you be more geniune if it was an arranged marriage or if she chose to marry you?
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 9/8/2004 11:29 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
quote:
The possibility for sin is the price you pay for having freedom.
Who is paying the price?
God paid the price at Calvary.
quote:
Many arguements I have in defense of the OT view is reasoning from a human standpoint; does the OT view try to hard to fit within the world's logic?
Did Paul reason with the Athenians on Mars Hill?
He quoted Epimenides and his liar's paradox.
We use human analogies because Jesus used human analogies, look at His parables.
If He mapped our relationship to God as that of a child to parent, we can use those kind of illustrations as well.
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