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| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > The raging debate continues here... > Is the OT view really a "logical" view? | Forum Quick Jump
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 9/10/2004 3:42 AM (GMT -6) |   | Sisters-
I have found a quote that explains what I am thinking concerning love and God, but articulates much better then I ever could; please read...
Similarly, while being mindful that God is love and is the Almighty, where
we read of divine regret or ignorance, or even hate, I am likewise
constrained to judge that a figure of speech is being employed
(anthropopatheia, condescension, as if the Deity had human feelings). Such
passages cannot be literal, as if God were a man with human limitations and
deficiencies. God is love: love is not incensed, neither is it taking
account of evil. Where the Son of God, as the Emblem of God's assumption
(Heb.1)--even as His Image and His expression--exhibits fury and
indignation, this is necessarily the manifestation of an assumed role, not
a reflection of the depth of His heart or the essence of His being.
His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. | | Back to Top | | |
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 9/10/2004 3:58 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
I have found a quote that explains what I am thinking concerning love and God, but articulates much better then I ever could; please read...
Similarly, while being mindful that God is love and is the Almighty, where
we read of divine regret or ignorance, or even hate, I am likewise
constrained to judge that a figure of speech is being employed
(anthropopatheia, condescension, as if the Deity had human feelings).
If we see God having emotions in scripture, the simple explanation is He has emotions and that emotions aren't limited to humans.
Okham's razor
If He was pleased with creation and saw that it was good, it means He was pleased with creation and saw that it was good.
If He is pleased with His Son, it means He is pleased with His Son.
quote:
Such passages cannot be literal, as if God were a man with human limitations and
Again, an unsupported assertion AND the fallacy that emotions are limited to humans. With absolutely no figure of speech in sight ("detestable thing I hate"), these are literal passages.
The author is bringing a prior assumption to scripture, that God is not a personality and that we aren't made in God's image.
quote:
deficiencies. God is love:
And God loves. And God hates. And God is pleased with His Son. And God regreted that He made man on the earth and God planted a vineyard and expected good grapes but got bad ones instead....
quote:
(Heb.1)--even as His Image and His expression--exhibits fury and
indignation, this is necessarily the manifestation of an assumed role
God is play-acting? He's faking it?
When you approach scripture with prior assumptions, as the author has, see the dumb things they end up saying?
If He's acting like He's mad, maybe He really is mad. LOL
If He's not really mad, why would He mislead us and say He's mad?
A figure of speech uses a figure but doesn't change the meaning of the phrase.
ice smooth as glass means smooth ice, it doesn't mean it's not ice or it's not smooth
mad as a hornet still means mad
"detestable thing I hate" means "detestable thing that God hates"
there's NO FIGURE in that speech
If "God regrets" means "God doesn't regret", then God has not only NOT communicated to us what He wanted, He has communicated the exact opposite of what He wanted.
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 9/10/2004 4:20 AM (GMT -6) | |  Don't steal that book, God will be mad.
 God is not personal, It cannot get mad.
But It said it would get mad.
It is just acting like It could get mad. It isn't limited to the human emotion of 'mad'.
So if It is not really mad, what is It?
it's a mystery....
if it's a mystery, how do you know It is not really mad?
That's a mystery as well....
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 9/10/2004 7:35 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sisters of Cain
Don't steal that book, God will be mad.
God is not personal, It cannot get mad.
But It said it would get mad.
It is just acting like It could get mad. It isn't limited to the human emotion of 'mad'.
So if It is not really mad, what is It?
it's a mystery....
if it's a mystery, how do you know It is not really mad?
That's a mystery as well....
Why does God have to be like a human to be able to be "personal"?
I see no faking, no maddness, no mystery. I see the God revealed in the bible. You can go off with your "emotion language", and you can belittle God all you want with your humor. I did not develop my beliefs through preconceptions taught to me as a child growing up in a Lutheran church or in college when God took me through a pentacostal church. I had to unlearn all of the foolish preconceptions christianity taught me before I could understand God in His true light. You believe that God has the same emotions and feelings as a man does, fine. I do not agree. I really do not think that the OT view is really all that different from other christian views, in that they are all thinking it but just don't admit to it.
His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. | | Back to Top | | |
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 9/10/2004 8:15 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
Why does God have to be like a human to be able to be "personal"?
God doesn't need to have a human body to be personal.
He does need a common interface with us, though: mind, will and emotions.
Do you have more in common with God, or with a pet?
The God revealed in the bible uses personal language about Himself, every time He speaks. Every time someone speaks about Him.
Genesis 33:11 Thus the LORD used to speak to Moses face to face, just as a man speaks to his friend.
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 9/10/2004 10:37 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
How can you possibly know this? If God somehow told you, then it's not completely acurate. He can only condescend to you. Your understanding of your undestanding must be wrong because all human understanding is wrong. The inspired Bible uses human reason; it must only hint at the real truth then. If you believe that we can't understand truth, how do you expect to understand the truth of your own belief?
Because the bible uses human terms to describe God, and yet declares that God is not a man; one is relative (due to our understanding) and the other is absolute.
quote:
You have emphasized God's inspiration and revelation over human reason, so how can we not talk about Jesus and the trinity? If you are going to look for inspiration and revelation, look at Jesus. He is definitely the best example.
Jesus declared that the words He spoke were not His words but the Father's. So if you are trying to say that Jesus was limited to human understanding you would be incorrect. The works Jesus did, He claimed they were not His works but the works of the One Who sent Him. Yes, I would agree that Jesus, the Word, of course in the best example of a person Who gave all the glory to the Father and cliamed nothing for Himself. If you would like to discuss the trinity I suggest we do it under another subject.
quote:
"I write to you, fathers, because you have [imperfectly] known him [but not really, just the simplified version that you are able to know]who is from the beginning."
The natural (psuchikon) man cannot understand the things which are of the spirit (pneuma) of God (1 Cor. 2:14). It is impossible to know the One True God through the flesh. Many people worship gods or a god through their flesh. Paul spoke of people of Israel having a zeal for God, but not in accord with recognition (Rom. 10:2). Jesus continually told the Pharisees that they did not know the Father even though they were the most learned of the scriptures in their time. In order to know the One True God, you need to enlightened by His spirit.
His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. | | Back to Top | | |
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Sahid
Megistered Rember
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 2013
| Posted 9/10/2004 4:06 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Because the bible uses human terms to describe God, and yet declares that God is not a man; one is relative (due to our understanding) and the other is absolute.
But your mind cannot comprehend God. So you can't say with certainty anything about him. Acording to you everything said about God is at best a half truth, because we can't grasp the real truth. So stop trying to tell us about God. By your own admition, it is pointless. You can't reasonably claim ignorance about God and then in the next breath tell us that we can't comprehend him. It doesn't matter what the Bible has to say about the matter, because you've already confessed that you can't understand any truth about God whether or not that truth is in the Bible. "We can't know true claims about God" is a claim about God.quote:
So if you are trying to say that Jesus was limited to human understanding you would be incorrect.
I'm not saying that at all! I'm saying if you want to discribe God, just describe Jesus. He's loving, strong, and wise to a perfection. He's also a man. He rose from the dead in the flesh and ascended to heaven in the flesh. He made it a point to show the disciples that he wasn't a ghost. quote:
The natural (psuchikon) man cannot understand the things which are of the spirit (pneuma) of God (1 Cor. 2:14). It is impossible to know the One True God through the flesh. Many people worship gods or a god through their flesh. Paul spoke of people of Israel having a zeal for God, but not in accord with recognition (Rom. 10:2). Jesus continually told the Pharisees that they did not know the Father even though they were the most learned of the scriptures in their time. In order to know the One True God, you need to enlightened by His spirit.
Here we agree! I'd also remind you that we have been baptized into Christ by the Spirit and that if any man is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has gone. Behold! the new has come! We may choose to act like our old self, but that doesn't change the fact that it is our old self. Old, not anymore, dead, not the new self. Quick! Name the most immature church of the new testament. Did you pick the Corinthians? Me too. Here's what Paul has to say about one of the most messed up groups of Christians in the Bible: "God has revealed it [his loving plan] to us by his Spirit." "God, who has called you to fellowship [not respectful ignorance] with his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, is faithful." Even the baby Christian is baptized by the Spirit. This enlightenment we need to have to know God is already ours!
God calls us friend and brother! Jesus says, "I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from the Father I have made know to you." Everything! The closeness of the Son to the Father is ours! Divine condescension is a reality, but that's not the end. After he reaches down to us, he lifts us up to him.
I can't even remember how this discussion got to where it is. It's been heated. The heat in my words comes from reading ideas that cautiously and respectfully limit the closeness, intimacy, and beauty of what relationship with God can mean. There was a great divide between God a man. Jesus bridged it. There is a place for marveling at how wide the gap is, but the important thing is to get ourselves to the other side, so that we can participate in his love.
Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre | | Back to Top | | |
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 9/11/2004 8:24 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sahid
But your mind cannot comprehend God. So you can't say with certainty anything about him.
If lock says he can't understand God, we'll just have to agree with his premise, that lock can't understand God, and ignore anything he says about God. 
However, the rest of us, being made in the image of God, can understand what God says to us in scripture. He made the rest of us in a way He can communicate with us.
John 14: 8,9
Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us."
Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 9/12/2004 6:32 PM (GMT -6) | | Lock: The OT view is that you all make your own un-influenced choices...
Tom: Not an OT belief at all. The notion of an "uninfluenced" choice seems to me to be an incoherent one. All our choices are influenced.
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
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JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 9/12/2004 6:36 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
Sahid and Sisters-
I have an understanding of God because I am a new creation through Christ Jesus. A person cannot come to know God unless they are a new creation.
Really? The Bible only says a person cannot come to Christ unless they are drawn by the Father.
quote:
You believe because you are saved, not saved because you believe.
Hmmm. Scripture seems clear, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house," "Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved," and "...that whosoever believeth on Him should not perish, but have eternal life."
quote:
The OT view is that you all make your own un-influenced choices,
Really? What published work of Boyd, Pinnock, Sanders, etc., can you produce to substantiate this claim? It is self-evident that we make absolutely NO choices that are un-influenced. All the OV books I have read (nearly all of them) have made it clear that we have at most "very limited free will." Free will even still, but certainly not "un-influenced" free will.
http://revivaltheology.net | | Back to Top | | |
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 9/13/2004 8:51 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
We have been there, done that.
Again, the paradox only is in th eyes of the OT'ers. I have quoteed scripture to back my view.
1. your premise is that you and all men are liars (totally depraved, totally corrupt)
2. you quote the words of other men to prove this
You don't see the paradox of this?
If we accept your premise (1), we can NOT accept (2) or anything you say, [including (1)]
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