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| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > The raging debate continues here... > Is the OT view really a "logical" view? | Forum Quick Jump
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 9/17/2004 8:15 PM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
Originally posted by rossfadeinout
Lock,
Why did God create us unable to please him? He created us in the flesh, did he not?
Really wondering,
Ross
Ross-
2 Timothy 1:9 God "saves us and calls us with a holy calling, not in accord with our acts, but in accord with His own purpose and the grace which is given us in Christ Jesus before times eonian (or before time)"
Before God even set time in motion He chose us according to His purpose. I believe His purpose has to display His love for us. John 3:16 tells us that God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son. God's purpose is to display His love for us by giving up His only Son, who knew no sin, and yet became sin for us and died in our place. How could God display His love in this manner without first having man be the helpless state of sin? Even though we have the law of God written in our hearts, the flesh and its earthly lusts, war against our heart, and as Paul says in Rom 7., that which I hate to do is what I end up doing. And Paul exclaims, "What will save me from this body of death?" The answer: grace. In order for us to please God, He takes the flesh out of the equation. We are to reckon ourselves dead, as if crucified with Christ, buried, and raised out from among the dead, and we are to walk in newness of spirit(which is contrasted with flesh). Circumcision is a symbol of cutting away the flesh.
Paul brings up a relative issue in Rom. 9:19-22, "You will be protesting to me, then, 'Why, then, is He (God) still blaming?' For who has withstood His intensions?" [and Paul answers] "O man! Who are you, to be sure, who are answering again to God? That which is molded will not protest to the molder, 'Why did You make me thus?' Or has the potter the right over the clay, out of the same kneading to make one vessel, indeed, for honor, yet one for dishonor? Now if God, wanting to display His indignation and to make His doings known..."
In both cases, God has a purpose for what He is doing. The purpose may not seem fair to our human reasoning but Paul asks who are we to be questioning God. We can see the lust of the flesh warring within Eve when she was thinking about eating the forbidden fruit.
quote:
(Gen. 3:6 "And the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and the tree was desired to make one wise...").
His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. | | Back to Top | | |
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 9/18/2004 3:33 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by jefscott
Lock,
quote:
We can see the lust of the flesh warring within Eve when she was thinking about eating the forbidden fruit.
quote:
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(Gen. 3:6 "And the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and the tree was desired to make one wise...").
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How does recognizing a fruit as aesthetically attractive and good for food imply your are lusting?
In context, Adam and Eve were told to not eat of this tree. Notice it is not just that it was good for food, but pleasant to the eyes, and desired to make one wise. All of these factors may be nuetral in themselves, but their influence leads to Adam and Eve's disobedience.
Our flesh, hungers, which is not wrong, but it can lead to overeating. Our flesh desires wine, which in moderation is not wrong, but it could lead to intoxication, which leads to sin. Our flesh disires sexual relations, which is not wrong, but it can lead to fornicaton and adultry.
quote:
Only broccoli is not sinful to eat. Don't laugh. That would be please your flesh.
My father-in-law ate too much broccoli one time and he wasn't laughing when he developed an intestinal blockage.
Abraham laughed within himself when he realized that God was able to keep His promise made to Abraham, even after Abraham and Sarah's bodies were deadened according to child rearing (Rom 4:19).
Don't confuse the flesh (sarx) with the soul (psuche). The law of God is written in our conscience. Paul wrote about how he struggled because he did that which he hated to do. He knew what was right, but he realized sin had made a home in his flesh (Rom. 7:18). Also, the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak (Matt. 26:41).
His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. | | Back to Top | | |
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 9/19/2004 5:31 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sahid
quote:
Our flesh, hungers, which is not wrong, but it can lead to overeating.
Wait, are you saying the flesh is not bad? quote:
Until God takes the flesh out of the equation, we are helpless sinners
quote:
God created flesh unable to meet the requirements of His glory
So, is the flesh what is wrong with us or is it sin?
The flesh is where sin makes its home (Rom. 7:18,19) "For I am aware that good IS NOT making its home in me (that is, in my flesh), for to will is lying beside me, yet to be effecting the ideal is not".
His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. | | Back to Top | | |
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