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JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 9/3/2004 6:42 PM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
Originally posted by lock
Throughout many posts, those who defend the OT view claim that it is a "logical" approach to understanding God and the bible. Some of the stands OT's take on certain issues do not seem "logical" to me. For example...
Just because something doesn't seem logical to you doesn't mean its necessarily illogical.
quote:
One OT view is that God created Adam and Eve with the possibly that they might sin but He did not expect them to, or know that they would, thus He was disappointed to find out they had sinned. According to 2 Tim 1:9 God put together the plan of redemption before the beginning of time. So that means God already planned how to save humans from their sins before He even created man and man sinned. It does not seem logical to me to assume God did not know Adam and Eve were going to sin, being that the redemption plan was all ready to go beforehand.
2 Tim 1:9 9[For it is He] Who delivered and saved us and called us with a calling in itself holy and leading to holiness [to a life of consecration, a vocation of holiness]; [He did it] not because of anything of merit that we have done, but because of and to further His own purpose and grace (unmerited favor) which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began [eternal ages ago]. AMP
Everything God does for us is gracious, in the sense that He doesn't HAVE to do it. Also, God's holy calling is eternally the same; that is, it is the same calling to Adam, Abraham, Moses, and us, and it has been His purpose that mankind live in holy fellowship with Him since "before the world began."
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 9/3/2004 7:14 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
2 Tim 1:9 9[For it is He] Who delivered and saved us and called us with a calling in itself holy and leading to holiness [to a life of consecration, a vocation of holiness]; [He did it] not because of anything of merit that we have done, but because of and to further His own purpose and grace (unmerited favor) which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began [eternal ages ago]. AMP
The plan, through Jesus Christ, to save and justify us was put together pro (before) chronon (times) aionion (eonian), rendered before the world began, before time began, before eonian times, etc. It was in place before creation and before the fall.
His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. | | Back to Top | | |
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JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 9/3/2004 7:19 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
quote:
2 Tim 1:9 9[For it is He] Who delivered and saved us and called us with a calling in itself holy and leading to holiness [to a life of consecration, a vocation of holiness]; [He did it] not because of anything of merit that we have done, but because of and to further His own purpose and grace (unmerited favor) which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began [eternal ages ago]. AMP
The plan, through Jesus Christ, to save and justify us was put together pro (before) chronon (times) aionion (eonian), rendered before the world began, before time began, before eonian times, etc. It was in place before creation and before the fall.
For the sake of argument, let's assume your assertion to be true. Even if true, the Open View is not contradicted, for the Open View is quite emphatic in asserting that God has always known all possibilities infinitely well.
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 9/3/2004 7:37 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by JEE
quote:
Originally posted by lock
quote:
2 Tim 1:9 9[For it is He] Who delivered and saved us and called us with a calling in itself holy and leading to holiness [to a life of consecration, a vocation of holiness]; [He did it] not because of anything of merit that we have done, but because of and to further His own purpose and grace (unmerited favor) which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began [eternal ages ago]. AMP
The plan, through Jesus Christ, to save and justify us was put together pro (before) chronon (times) aionion (eonian), rendered before the world began, before time began, before eonian times, etc. It was in place before creation and before the fall.
For the sake of argument, let's assume your assertion to be true. Even if true, the Open View is not contradicted, for the Open View is quite emphatic in asserting that God has always known all possibilities infinitely well.
Yes JEE, but you have made it quite clear in other posts in different subjects that God did not expect Adam and Eve to sin, and that He was in reality dissapponted with them (condescension). So, basically you are saying that God was just covering His butt (condescension) by having the redemption plan all set to fly, just in case Adam sinned?
His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. | | Back to Top | | |
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JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 9/3/2004 7:46 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
quote:
Originally posted by JEE
quote:
Originally posted by lock
quote:
2 Tim 1:9 9[For it is He] Who delivered and saved us and called us with a calling in itself holy and leading to holiness [to a life of consecration, a vocation of holiness]; [He did it] not because of anything of merit that we have done, but because of and to further His own purpose and grace (unmerited favor) which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began [eternal ages ago]. AMP
The plan, through Jesus Christ, to save and justify us was put together pro (before) chronon (times) aionion (eonian), rendered before the world began, before time began, before eonian times, etc. It was in place before creation and before the fall.
For the sake of argument, let's assume your assertion to be true. Even if true, the Open View is not contradicted, for the Open View is quite emphatic in asserting that God has always known all possibilities infinitely well.
Yes JEE, but you have made it quite clear in other posts in different subjects that God did not expect Adam and Eve to sin, and that He was in reality dissapponted with them (condescension). So, basically you are saying that God was just covering His butt (condescension) by having the redemption plan all set to fly, just in case Adam sinned?
Wow, fascinating choice of metaphor, Lock. 
In my view, God knows all possibilities perfectly well, and he is perfectly capable of handling any and all new developments.
The vast number of if/then statements that God directs to mankind in Scripture (beginning with "in the day that you eat thereof, you shall surely die) leads me to believe that God means "if/then" when He says, "if/then." In other words, God is ready for anything, though He certainly has His preference as to how things should go. (E.g., "it is not his will that any should perish," even though the Bible reveals that all who are not saved do in fact perish).
Should I be apologetic for believing that when God says he was grieved with mankind, and sorry that He made man, that means he was in fact grieving, sorrowful, and disappointed? What would God saying this sort of thing be a metaphor for?
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Alan Rhoda
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 680
| Posted 9/3/2004 11:34 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
One OT view is that God created Adam and Eve with the possibly that they might sin but He did not expect them to, or know that they would, thus He was disappointed to find out they had sinned. According to 2 Tim 1:9 God put together the plan of redemption before the beginning of time. So that means God already planned how to save humans from their sins before He even created man and man sinned. It does not seem logical to me to assume God did not know Adam and Eve were going to sin, being that the redemption plan was all ready to go beforehand.
There's nothing illogical about the open view here if one thinks of God's plan of redemption as a contingency plan. Specifically, God resolved from the foundation of the world that IF Adam and Eve succumbed to temptation that He would provide a Savior for them and their descendants.
God bless,
Alan | | Back to Top | | |
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feelinahole
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 9/4/2004 5:03 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 9/4/2004 7:54 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sahid
quote:
So, basically you are saying that God was just covering His butt (condescension) by having the redemption plan all set to fly, just in case Adam sinned?
What's wrong with covering your butt? What's wrong with God showing us mercy when we screw up his plan? How is that illogical?
Sahid,
If I follow Lock's argument, it seems to me that to his mind God meant for Adam and Eve to sin, so that He could be glorified in showing mercy to them. Pretty Calvinistic-sounding to me, at least. In another thread, our good friend Lock has tried to say that God has a "purpose" for sin. I could be wrong, and I don't want to speak for Lock, but, the board's kinda slow today. 
Alan: Thank you for putting it so much better than I had.
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God_Is_Truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2003
Total Posts : 33
| Posted 9/4/2004 7:57 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Alan Rhoda
quote:
Originally posted by lock
One OT view is that God created Adam and Eve with the possibly that they might sin but He did not expect them to, or know that they would, thus He was disappointed to find out they had sinned. According to 2 Tim 1:9 God put together the plan of redemption before the beginning of time. So that means God already planned how to save humans from their sins before He even created man and man sinned. It does not seem logical to me to assume God did not know Adam and Eve were going to sin, being that the redemption plan was all ready to go beforehand.
There's nothing illogical about the open view here if one thinks of God's plan of redemption as a contingency plan. Specifically, God resolved from the foundation of the world that IF Adam and Eve succumbed to temptation that He would provide a Savior for them and their descendants.
God bless,
Alan
well put! my thoughts exactly. | | Back to Top | | |
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feelinahole
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 9/5/2004 6:08 AM (GMT -6) | | | It really seems to me that it depends on how one VIEWS God's plans from the foundation of the world. Calvinists have typically have views it as a set in stone type plan and anyone who disagrees is challenged as unbiblical and illogical. But it does really depend on how one sees the plans of God. There is really nothing within scripturethat prevents one from seeing his plans as being contingent on certain things happening. In fact, as demonstrated in the Old Testament, God many times tailors his plan to individual requests from those who doubt or are afraid. God is not without compassion. | | Back to Top | | |
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feelinahole
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 9/5/2004 6:34 PM (GMT -6) | | | Sigh. Because God treasures love freely chosen and stopping a person from choosing would negate true love. I would really suggest you guys read some of Doctor Boyd's writings. He has gone over this is his books. Its very basis to the open view and without an understanding of it one cannot grasp the open view. | | Back to Top | | |
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feelinahole
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 9/5/2004 6:37 PM (GMT -6) | | | What kind of God would God be if he intended sin to enter creation? The sin of the holocaust, of AIDS, of Stalin, of the countless horrors mankind has inflicted (not on itself), because God intended it to happen? One wonders if the belief that God has a plan is worth the cost to God's glory. | | Back to Top | | |
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 9/6/2004 4:49 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Sigh. Because God treasures love freely chosen and stopping a person from choosing would negate true love. I would really suggest you guys read some of Doctor Boyd's writings. He has gone over this is his books. Its very basis to the open view and without an understanding of it one cannot grasp the open view.
I understand the OT view here and really do not think it is all that different then the normal christian views, just most christians would not admit to it.
quote:
What kind of God would God be if he intended sin to enter creation? The sin of the holocaust, of AIDS, of Stalin, of the countless horrors mankind has inflicted (not on itself), because God intended it to happen? One wonders if the belief that God has a plan is worth the cost to God's glory.
Why stop with those? What kind of God would kill the firstborn of Egypt? What kind of God would command the death of women and children? What kind of God would allow the destruction, rape, death, etc. of His own chosen peolple? What kind of God would purpose the death of His own Son? Do you really think that God is so powerless that HE has limited control over His creation? Do you really think man and sin is running amuck because God has lost control over it? The history of the bible along with world history proves that man is incapable of meeting God's standard. You do not think that God is making a point here? Man is helpless without God, and sin and the inability of the flesh is proof. How else would we know the love and goodness of God without the evil of man to compare with? Do you really think it was a mistake for man to know good and evil (Gen 3:22)?
His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. | | Back to Top | | |
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 9/6/2004 5:00 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Lock, it seems to me that you're using the term, "illogical" when you really mean "inconsistent with my own presuppositions." If we take the dictionary definition of "illogical" with regard to theoLOGICAL thinking, we simply mean "not self-contradictory." And the Open View, as far as I have seen, is not inherently self-contradictory with regard to the issue you raise in this thread.
John-
I think inconsistent would be the better way to describe it. Not inconsistent within itself (because the OT view does cover itself) but with what the bible declares. The OT view creates a God who knows future possibilities but yet leaves the future open for man to ultimately decide. This clearly contradicts what is being taught in the following passages: Prov. 16:9, 19:21, 20:24, 21:1, Eccl. 7:13, Is. 10:15, 46:10-11, 64:8, Jer. 10:23, Dan. 4:35, just to name a few. My concern is God's glory. By reducing God's knowledge of the future from His purposes to only possibilities, you have successfully reduced His glory.
His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. | | Back to Top | | |
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 9/6/2004 6:03 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
By reducing God's knowledge of the future from His purposes to only possibilities, you have successfully reduced His glory.
A god who has to control ALL variables in order to get ANYTHING done is NOT a glorious god.
On earth, we get things accomplished without having total control of all the variables.
Why you think an inept god, one who can't accomplish anything unless he controls EVERYTHING, is glorious is beyond me.
your god, a football coach who can only win if he's using robots
our God, a football coach able to win despite having a team of dunderheads playing for Him
The muslims are as fatalistic as the calvinists. They believe EVERYTHING that happens is allah's will. Does that make allah "glorious"? | | Back to Top | | |
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