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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 9/28/2004 10:36 AM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
God is perfectly justified in placing conditions on salvation; the Scriptures clearly show this when unbelievers are directly exhorted to repent and believe the Gospel. Submitting to the claims of the Gospel cannot be meritorious in any way. And yes, it is a requirement, or else we hurl cavils at the very word of God which commands all men everywhere to repent.
John-
The bible also makes it perfectly clear that if a person is not lead by the spirit, they will think the message of grace is stupidity. The bible leaves no area for middle ground. You are either a slave to sin or a slave to righteousness. If your disposition is of the flesh, you will mind the things of the flesh, and will be a slave to sin. If your disposition is of spirit, you will be lead by the spirit, and will be a slave to righteousness. Where does the bible speak of this mysterious time period of LFW when a person is drawn by the spirit to understand the things of God but yet rejects them?
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 9/28/2004 11:35 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by JEE
quote:
Originally posted by lock
quote:
God is perfectly justified in placing conditions on salvation; the Scriptures clearly show this when unbelievers are directly exhorted to repent and believe the Gospel. Submitting to the claims of the Gospel cannot be meritorious in any way. And yes, it is a requirement, or else we hurl cavils at the very word of God which commands all men everywhere to repent.
John-
The bible also makes it perfectly clear that if a person is not lead by the spirit, they will think the message of grace is stupidity. The bible leaves no area for middle ground. You are either a slave to sin or a slave to righteousness. If your disposition is of the flesh, you will mind the things of the flesh, and will be a slave to sin. If your disposition is of spirit, you will be lead by the spirit, and will be a slave to righteousness. Where does the bible speak of this mysterious time period of LFW when a person is drawn by the spirit to understand the things of God but yet rejects them?
It is not my job to educate you on where the Scripture teaches that man is able to reject the leading of the Spirit, lock. If you are not aware of such passages, it is your own fault. 
I think that we are called to instruct people that ask us in the scriptures and that to abdicate in the face of an "honest" question would be something close to "sin."
quote:
Until I come, give attention to the public reading of Scripture, to exhortation and teaching...
All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.
Here are a few passages that may deal with your issue.
Acts 28:25
25And when they did not agree with one another, they began leaving after Paul had spoken one parting word, “The Holy Spirit rightly spoke through Isaiah the prophet to your fathers, 26saying,
‘GO TO THIS PEOPLE AND SAY,
“YOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND;
AND YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE;
27 FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL,
AND WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR,
AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES;
OTHERWISE THEY MIGHT SEE WITH THEIR EYES,
AND HEAR WITH THEIR EARS,
AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN,
AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.”’
1 Co 11:4
4For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully.
Eph 4:30
30Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
1 Thes 4:8
8So, he who rejects this is not rejecting man but the God who gives His Holy Spirit to you.
1 Thess 5:19
19Do not quench the Spirit;
Spen Lake
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 9/29/2004 3:34 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by JEE
quote:
Originally posted by lock
quote:
God is perfectly justified in placing conditions on salvation; the Scriptures clearly show this when unbelievers are directly exhorted to repent and believe the Gospel. Submitting to the claims of the Gospel cannot be meritorious in any way. And yes, it is a requirement, or else we hurl cavils at the very word of God which commands all men everywhere to repent.
John-
The bible also makes it perfectly clear that if a person is not lead by the spirit, they will think the message of grace is stupidity. The bible leaves no area for middle ground. You are either a slave to sin or a slave to righteousness. If your disposition is of the flesh, you will mind the things of the flesh, and will be a slave to sin. If your disposition is of spirit, you will be lead by the spirit, and will be a slave to righteousness. Where does the bible speak of this mysterious time period of LFW when a person is drawn by the spirit to understand the things of God but yet rejects them?
It is not my job to educate you on where the Scripture teaches that man is able to reject the leading of the Spirit, lock. If you are not aware of such passages, it is your own fault.
Taking the easy way out, John?
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 9/29/2004 8:04 AM (GMT -6) | | Ross-
I understand what you are saying. I agree with what you are saying about LFW, because of how our choices are influenced. I also understand that a part of LFW is to take the "blame" for evil in the world away from God and place it, as you say, in the responsibility of man. Never does the bible say that God commits evil deeds, but it does show that God will use evil to meet His purposes. In the case of Job, the evil he experienced happened only because God allowed it. The instrument was Satan, but it was still of God. The judgments brought upon Israel in the Old Testament involved much evil, but it is still brought about by God. I think it is noble for us to try to keep God's hands clean, so to speak, from the evil in the world, but God must have a purpose for evil in His creation. Was there no purpose for knowing good and evil? In order to have a Savior, do we not need to be in a place in which we need to be saved? I am not saying that God finds pleasure in the evil, I do not think God finds pleasure in judging man for his evil (Rom. 9:22 says God carries with much patience, the vessels of indignation).
God has given mankind this experience of evil in order to humble them. Man will be judged for the evil he commits. This is a part of God's purpose. Through this judgment man will see his need for God and a Savior.
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JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 9/29/2004 10:46 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
quote:
Originally posted by JEE
quote:
Originally posted by lock
quote:
God is perfectly justified in placing conditions on salvation; the Scriptures clearly show this when unbelievers are directly exhorted to repent and believe the Gospel. Submitting to the claims of the Gospel cannot be meritorious in any way. And yes, it is a requirement, or else we hurl cavils at the very word of God which commands all men everywhere to repent.
John-
The bible also makes it perfectly clear that if a person is not lead by the spirit, they will think the message of grace is stupidity. The bible leaves no area for middle ground. You are either a slave to sin or a slave to righteousness. If your disposition is of the flesh, you will mind the things of the flesh, and will be a slave to sin. If your disposition is of spirit, you will be lead by the spirit, and will be a slave to righteousness. Where does the bible speak of this mysterious time period of LFW when a person is drawn by the spirit to understand the things of God but yet rejects them?
It is not my job to educate you on where the Scripture teaches that man is able to reject the leading of the Spirit, lock. If you are not aware of such passages, it is your own fault.
Taking the easy way out, John?
Lock,
No, I am not taking the easy way out. The onus is on YOU to show that people DON'T ever have free will, or that people CANNOT resist the Holy Spirit's commands. It is not my responsibility to prove a first truth of reason such as free will, any more than it is my responsibility to prove your (or my) existence.
The Bible may not directly state, "mankind has free will," but then again it also never directly states "God is a trinity." These truths are directly inferred from what the Scriptures DO say about God and humanity. When God commands man to do a particular thing, we have the clearest possible evidence that it is possible for man to comply with this command, or else God is the most unimaginable BULLY possible. Every divine command to mankind virtually SHOUTS that man is able to obey.
Acts 7:51 "You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did.
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JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 9/29/2004 11:07 AM (GMT -6) | | While it is against my better judgment, I will in the following show clear examples in Scripture where God's will was indeed rejected by people:
Matt. 12:25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: 26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? 27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges. 28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. 29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house. 30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad. 31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. 32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. 33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
It is not clear to me at least, how the omnicausal God depicted by Lock and other determinists is not, as Christ says, "A kingdom divided against itself."
Luke 7:29 (When they heard this all the people and the tax collectors justified God, having been baptized with the baptism of John; 30 but the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected the purpose of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him.)
Here we have clear evidence from Christ himself that there are some who are able to reject the purpose of God for themselves. How this fits with the omnicausal God that lock ascribes to is unintelligible.
John
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 9/29/2004 5:49 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
The Bible may not directly state, "mankind has free will,"
But the bible does directly state...
Jer. 10:23 "O Lord, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps."
Proverbs 20:24 "Man's goings are of the Lord; How can a man understand his own way?"
Daniel 4:35 "...and none can stay His hand, or say unto Him, What doest thou?"
Proverbs 16:9 "a man's heart devises his way, but the Lord directs his steps"
quote:
Here we have clear evidence from Christ himself that there are some who are able to reject the purpose of God for themselves. How this fits with the omnicausal God that lock ascribes to is unintelligible.
How does Christ explaining how it is foolish to claim He casts out demons by Satan give evidence that man can reject the purposes of God? and Luke 7 refers to John's baptism of water which John himself distinguishes from Jesus' baptism of fire and spirit. Again, this is not evidence of man rejecting God's spirit when saved.
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JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 9/29/2004 8:10 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
The Bible may not directly state, "mankind has free will,"
But the bible does directly state...
Jer. 10:23 "O Lord, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps."
In context, Jeremiah is referring to God's sovereign ability to judge nations when He sees fit, which I (of course) affirm. It would be taking this verse out of context to extrapolate from it that God in all cases directs every person's choices.
quote:
Proverbs 20:24 "Man's goings are of the Lord; How can a man understand his own way?"
Proverbs 16:9 "a man's heart devises his way, but the Lord directs his steps"
If we take the Proverbs as literally and universally true at all times and in all cases, the book flatly contradicts itself in several places, not to mention the fact that it contradicts many other non-poetic and didactic portions of Scripture.
quote:
Daniel 4:35 "...and none can stay His hand, or say unto Him, What doest thou?"
Who denies that God can do as He will? I sure don't.
quote:
Here we have clear evidence from Christ himself that there are some who are able to reject the purpose of God for themselves. How this fits with the omnicausal God that lock ascribes to is unintelligible.
quote:
How does Christ explaining how it is foolish to claim He casts out demons by Satan give evidence that man can reject the purposes of God?
It's like this, lock: You claim that God causes all things, correct? If so, then God's own kingdom is divided against itself in casting out that which HE placed in the demon-possessed person, or else Christ's words can not be trusted.
quote:
and Luke 7 refers to John's baptism of water which John himself distinguishes from Jesus' baptism of fire and spirit. Again, this is not evidence of man rejecting God's spirit when saved.
Whether or not a person is saved is not the point at issue; whether or not a person can reject God's purpose for themselves is the point, lock. And in this case, the plain statement of Scripture is that these people did precisely this--they rejected the purpose of God for themselves. Is it your position that no one was saved before Calvary?
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 9/30/2004 3:26 AM (GMT -6) | | John-
These are direct statements of How God deals with His creation. If you wish to blow them off because you feel they are out of context, or believe that it should not be taken literally, that is your choice. As you pointed out yourself, LFW is not directly taught in the bible, yet these are direct statements contradicting LFW.
quote:
It's like this, lock: You claim that God causes all things, correct? If so, then God's own kingdom is divided against itself in casting out that which HE placed in the demon-possessed person, or else Christ's words can not be trusted.
In the absolute sense, all is of God, this is scriptural. In the relative sense, in His creation, God has two opposing forces. The one side, headed up by Satan, will be around long enough to meet God's purpose for it in His creation, and then it is taken away. Evil is temporary. The other is headed up by His Son, and this, of course, will eventually reconcile all unto God. Why have the opposing forces? God displays His kindness in contrast to Satan's and his followers' evil. God displays His righteousness in contrast with Satan's and his followers' sin.
quote:
Whether or not a person is saved is not the point at issue; whether or not a person can reject God's purpose for themselves is the point, lock. And in this case, the plain statement of Scripture is that these people did precisely this--they rejected the purpose of God for themselves. Is it your position that no one was saved before Calvary?
John's baptism falls into the evangel of the Circumsision. John's baptism was the "call" to repent. Jesus stated "many are called, but few are chosen." Rejecting the call (John's baptism) is within God's purposes. If people were not saved before calvary, then I would feel really bad for the list of faithful in Heb. 11!
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JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 9/30/2004 6:24 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
John-
These are direct statements of How God deals with His creation. If you wish to blow them off because you feel they are out of context, or believe that it should not be taken literally, that is your choice. As you pointed out yourself, LFW is not directly taught in the bible, yet these are direct statements contradicting LFW.
I am not blowing them off, lock. (Even if I am, how can you blame me, seeing as I don't really have a choice). 
Free will is the obvious corollary to the commands of God. It is directly implied every time God tells us to do something. Proverbs contradicts itself in many places, if taken as strictly literal universally true statements of fact. Deny this all you want, but it is a fact that wisdom literature is not universally true in all circumstances; e.g., the wicked do not always prosper, and the righteous do not always suffer poverty.
quote:
It's like this, lock: You claim that God causes all things, correct? If so, then God's own kingdom is divided against itself in casting out that which HE placed in the demon-possessed person, or else Christ's words can not be trusted.
quote:
Whether or not a person is saved is not the point at issue; whether or not a person can reject God's purpose for themselves is the point, lock. And in this case, the plain statement of Scripture is that these people did precisely this--they rejected the purpose of God for themselves. Is it your position that no one was saved before Calvary?
quote:
John's baptism falls into the evangel of the Circumsision. John's baptism was the "call" to repent.
And Scripture states that many DID repent under John's preaching, while some rejected the purpose of God for themselves by refusing John's message.
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JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 9/30/2004 9:56 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
Ross-
If God is "responsible" for creating man, whom the bible states is unable to please God due to the weakness of the flesh, then turns around and sends man to hell for the sins he commits due to this weakness, this would creates a fiendish god (once again, no offense meant towards any Calvinists). The reason I say LFW goes hand and hand with the theology of eternal torment is that if you take the "responsibility" out of God's hands and place it totally on the shoulders of man, then people find it justifiable sending someone to hell for eternity due to the sins they commit. I do not believe God's judgment are purely punitive. God had a purpose for sin entering creation. God has a purpose for judging man according to his acts. The purpose is to display His righteousness in contrast with man's unrighteousness. His judgment is corrective with the good of person being corrected in mind. Evil and sin are temporary and will be around only long enough to suit God's purpose in His creation.
Even if one subscribes to the view that Hell is not eternal but limited in duration and ultimately "corrective" (somewhat like purgatory), with such a view one still is required to think of God in Calvinistic terms--all the (corrective) suffering of all the ages by people who simply couldn't help themselves for being evil, and all the suffering of those upon whom the evil is inflicted is in the end pointless and unnecessary. In the universalistic view, we've all been set up by an unbelievably fiendish God who would create moral agents for no other purpose than to make them suffer unimaginably in this age and in the age to come, all to suit His purposes.
While I can certainly understand why a determinist would want to embrace universalism, in order to avoid the thought that most people will spend eternity in Hell simply because God chose not to save them, there still is the very real problem posed in this theory, that God's kingdom is divided against itself. Additionally, on this view one could not wholeheartedly trust in God's goodness or mercy, for, just as in Calvinism, God could simply be deceiving you into believing you are of the elect and will escape the wrath of God (even if not eternal).
Finally, universalism makes a mockery of God's moral law, just as Calvinism does, for in this deterministic view God commands man, on pain of Hell, to avoid that which God fully knows man CANNOT by any means avoid (sin). Also, universalism, like its close sister, Calvinism, makes a mockery of sin, for if all that happens is God's will, then sin is God's will (which the Bible expressly denies), sin is not really sin but is in fact holy, and GOD HIMSELF IS THE ORIGINAL SINNER, being the ultimate Cause of all things.
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 10/1/2004 3:47 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Here is my attempt to sum up what i see of your position... God created man fleshly (weak) and introduced sin into the world. Man was unable NOT to sin; God wanted man to sin so he would know what seperation from God was like. By knowing this he would have a better realization of God's goodness. God has chosen (at random, or at least not based on anything in the particular person) to elect SOME to salvation in this life. Then there is a judjment where those who were not elected are sentenced to "the second death" (or something like that). Then at the end of the "eons of eons" God will save those who weren't elected the first time around.
Ross-
I think this is close to what I am saying. But, I do not see the lake of fire and brimstone as the sentence. God will judge the rest of the dead according to their acts, the sentence will suit the crime, the sentence will be carried out before the throne. The lake of fire and brimstone, which is the second death, is where they will be, while in the state of death, during the new heavens and new earth time period. I do not see the lake of fire and brimstone as a purgatory. I see it as the bible describes; death. The bible equates death with sleeping; an unconscious state.
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