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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 10/1/2004 9:26 AM (GMT -6) |   | Lock,
quote:
The bible equates death with sleeping; an unconscious state.
I believe that the Bible equates "physical death" until the resurrection as "sleeping" or an uncoscious state. There will be a resurrection fo all men, some unto eternal life and some to "eternal death" which is the second death. This is not "sleeping" as I understand it. There is something special with the second death that doesn't seem to be sleep-like but torment.
quote:
11‘He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.’
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6Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
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14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
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8“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
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since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.
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1Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment.
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6For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed.
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41“Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ 44“Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ 45“Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46“These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Spen Lake
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 10/1/2004 10:40 AM (GMT -6) | | Spen-
Only the first four quotes refer to the lake of fire and brimstone and none give any indication that the second death is anything more then a state of unconscious death.
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since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.
This refers to Sodom and Gomorrah. The word translated "eternal" is aionion. By translating this eternal its creates a contradiction in the bible because we are told Sodom will return to its former glory during the age of the Messiah's reign (Ez. 16:55). The judgment upon Sodom cannot be "eternal". The judgment against Sodom and Gomorrah pertains to this age, which Robert Young defines aionion; pertaining to an age.
Your last three quotes speak of when Christ returns to set up the kingdom here on earth. The hope of an Israelite is to live and reign with the Messiah during this age. When Christ returns He will...
[quote]6For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed. [/quote]
Especially Matt. 25, which speaks of Christ judging the living nations upon His return according to how they treated Israel. Does own salvation hang on how our nation treats Israel? Plus, these judgments occur a full thousand years before the white throne judgment takes place (Rev.20:5)!
His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. | | Back to Top | | |
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micah4
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2004
Total Posts : 8
| Posted 10/2/2004 4:48 AM (GMT -6) | | This is one of the best online resources I have found which addresses the subject of free will and especially the charge that "if free will actions are not determined, then they are random or arbitrary, and therefore meaningless".
www.ucl.ac.uk/~uctytho/dfwVariousKane.html
More from a philosophical perspective than a theological perspective, but it is easy to see reading it where the role of the conviction of the spirit fits in to bringing about these moments of free moral decision.
Excerpt:
"You may find all this interesting and yet still find it hard to shake the intuition that if choices are undetermined, they must happen merely by chance--and so must be "random," "capricious," "uncontrolled," "irrational," and all the other things usually charged. Such intuitions are deeply ingrained. But if we are ever going to understand free will, I think we have to break old habits of thought that support such intuitions and learn to think in new ways. The first step in doing this is to question the intuitive connection in most people's minds between "indeterminism's being involved in something" and "its happening merely as a matter of chance or luck." "Chance" and "luck" are terms of ordinary language that carry the connotation of "its being out of my control." So using them already begs certain questions, whereas "indeterminism" is a technical term that merely precludes deterministic causation, though not causation altogether. Indeterminism is consistent with nondeterministic or probabilistic causation, where the outcome is not inevitable. It is therefore a mistake (alas, one of the most common in debates about free will) to assume that "undetermined" means 'uncaused.'"
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"every undetermined self-forming free choice is the initiation of what I have elsewhere called a "value experiment" whose justification lies in the future and is not fully explained by past reasons. In making such a choice we say, in effect, "Let's try this. It is not required by my past, but it is consistent with my past and is one branching pathway my life can now meaningfully take. Whether it is the right choice, only time will tell. Meanwhile, I am willing to take responsibility for it one way or the other."
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