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borg
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 324
| Posted 8/26/2004 11:15 AM (GMT -6) |   | hmm... can't say i agree. where do you find inclination having to do with volition? poetic argument, throw that away and come up with something new. ahh, but just as the leopard cannot change his spots, we cannot change our hearts. and it's God who removes our hearts of stone to give us hearts of flesh, and giving us hearts of flesh He has written His law on those hearts, He is our God and we are His people. But until He soveriegnly chooses to give us hearts of flesh, are we to assume all we have is a heart of stone? weren't we all born as children of wrath? meaning????
borg
"So it is a more glorious work of power to uphold a soul in a state of grace and holiness, and to carry it on till it is brought to glory, when there is so much sin remaining in the heart resisting, and Satan with all his might opposing, than it would have been to have kept manfrom falling at first, when Satan had nothing in man." Edwards | | Back to Top | | |
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JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 8/26/2004 11:26 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by borg
hmm... can't say i agree. where do you find inclination having to do with volition?
I'm certain that even Jonathan Edwards would agree with me that inclination has to do with volition; that is, we are free to choose (volition) what we want (inclination). If I say I am disinclined to do a particular thing, it means I don't want to do it and therefore I choose not to do it.
quote:
poetic argument, throw that away and come up with something new.
So you deny that Psalms 51 is poetry?
quote:
ahh, but just as the leopard cannot change his spots, we cannot change our hearts. and it's God who removes our hearts of stone to give us hearts of flesh, and giving us hearts of flesh He has written His law on those hearts, He is our God and we are His people. But until He soveriegnly chooses to give us hearts of flesh, are we to assume all we have is a heart of stone?
So has God changed your heart? If so, then what good excuse do you have to continue in sin?
quote:
weren't we all born as children of wrath? meaning????
borg
"By nature children of wrath," uses the same word for "nature" as Romans 2 does when it says:
Rom. 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another ; )
Eph. 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
So it would seem that "by nature the children of wrath" clearly speaks of something that is chosen by the "children of disobedience," who walk in the lusts of their flesh. Romans 1 clearly lays out that moral depravity is entered into voluntarily by all who "because they did not like to retain the knowledge of God in their minds," and "suppressed the truth in unrighteousness," were given over to a depraved mind by God, to do those things which are unseemly.
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JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 8/26/2004 12:01 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by borg
we sin, because we want to... we sin, because we are sinners.
"Want to" is term denoting will and desire. "Free will" is terminology that is perfectly well understood by anyone who hears it. Why make a big deal out of a term that even Calvinists use? (compatibilistic free will, nevertheless, but even so, they do use the term, "free will"). One chooses what one wants to choose, and has the power to obey or disobey God each moment that he retains his mental faculties. One may as well argue against his own existence as try to argue against free will.
"We sin because we are sinners" is patently absurd. How can one be an doer without doing? "We sin because we are sinners" turns all moral action into meaninglessness, and makes a sheer mockery of the moral law of God, which he has expressly commanded all mankind to obey. On your view, how is a murderer truly guilty, since all he's doing is murdering because he's a murderer? (i.e., acting according to an inevitable nature?).
"We sin because we want to" is correct scripturally and logically.
If you are saying sin is the result of a "sinful nature" that compels you to sin, and that you inherited this "sinful nature" from Adam, then it seems quite obvious that you have here the PERFECT excuse for sin; you just can't help yourself, and it all is Adam's fault ultimately.
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 8/26/2004 3:22 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by borg
...in sin my mother concieved me...
David didn't exist at his conception.
Or could you explain which was sinning, the sperm or the egg? 
What are some ways a sperm could sin?
What are some ways an egg could sin?
David's mother was sinning when she conceived him. That's why David wasn't brought 'round when Samuel told Jesse to assemble all his sons.
Adam and Eve existed and weren't sinners until they sinned.
Jesus existed and wasn't a sinner.
They've completed the human genome project
http://www.ornl.gov/sci/techresources/Human_Genome/home.shtml
and never found the sin gene.
Ezekial 18:
20 "The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.
21 "But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
22 "All his transgressions which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of his righteousness which he has practiced, he will live.
23 "Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked," declares the Lord GOD, "rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?
24 "But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die.
Not imputed either.
Ezekial 28:15
"You were blameless in your ways
From the day you were created
Until unrighteousness was found in you."
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 8/26/2004 3:33 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by borg
does being a skier define your natural state? is being a skier the essence of your existence?
I have to ski to be a skier.
I have to sin to be a sinner.
Ever studied verbs?
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 8/26/2004 5:12 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi everyone,
quote:
Lee: No, because sinning makes us not free! And all sinful actions are still part of God's plan. … a caused choice is not a free one …
Sahid: This looks like a contradiction to me. Christians are free so long as they don't sin? It's like saying I'm free to eat any flavor of ice cream I want as long as the only flavor I want is vanilla. That's not freedom.
No, you are free to eat any flavor, as long as it's not sinning. That doesn't restrict you always to vanilla.
quote:
Sahid: If I sin, God made me.
I think I could allow for believers to use their freedom to choose sin:
Galatians 5:13 You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love.
But then they're not free anymore, until they repent.
quote:
Sahid: If I don't sin, I'm free? Free to do what?
Whatever is not sinful…
quote:
At least I didn't use all caps or bold or something.
Glad to leave the caps for the great outdoors, and the bold for adventures…
Blessings,
Lee
==================================================
"Even now we seem to have dim glimpses into regions
from which we receive no word to bring away" (George MacDonald) | | Back to Top | | |
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 8/27/2004 10:18 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by JEE
quote:
Originally posted by lock
quote:
David's mother was sinning when she conceived him. That's why David wasn't brought 'round when Samuel told Jesse to assemble all his sons.
What exactly is meant by this comment and where is the evidence to back up such a statement?
Some food for thought...
http://twtministries.com/articles/11_born_sin/ps51_5.html
JEE and Sisters-
Interesting article, but all it does is create more contradictions in the bible. Ruth 4:22 "Jesse begat David", 1 Sam 17:17, "Jesse said unto his son, David", 1 Chron. 10:4 "David, the son of Jesse, Matt. 1:6, "Jesse begat David the king, etc.
To claim that Jesse, when told to call his sons, did not call David because David was not his son causes to many contradictions. Plus, looking at the context of Ps. 51, David is speaking of his sins and transgressions throughout the whole psalm. To say that in the one verse he jumps to his suspected mother's sin (of which he would not be responsible for) is a stretch to say the least.
Why does the bible say in Adam, all are dying (1 Cor. 15)?
Lock
His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. | | Back to Top | | |
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JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 8/27/2004 11:01 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
quote:
Originally posted by JEE
quote:
Originally posted by lock
quote:
David's mother was sinning when she conceived him. That's why David wasn't brought 'round when Samuel told Jesse to assemble all his sons.
What exactly is meant by this comment and where is the evidence to back up such a statement?
Some food for thought...
http://twtministries.com/articles/11_born_sin/ps51_5.html
JEE and Sisters-
Interesting article, but all it does is create more contradictions in the bible. Ruth 4:22 "Jesse begat David", 1 Sam 17:17, "Jesse said unto his son, David", 1 Chron. 10:4 "David, the son of Jesse, Matt. 1:6, "Jesse begat David the king, etc.
Hi Lock,
I think you may have overlooked the following portion of the above article:
quote:
David's mother was most likely the second wife of Jesse, the first wife being the mother of David's half-brothers. Jesse’s first wife's standing before the 'righteousness of the law', (her not having been married to, or the concubine of, a heathen king, as was David’s mother), would have been superior to that of David's mother, and explains why David's half-brothers, Jesse's other sons, would have felt they were superior to David, and why he would be accused of being prideful, for thinking he was as good as them....
It is not saying that Jesse wasn't David's father; it is saying that his mother had formerly been a wife or concubine of Nahash, who was the father of David's two sisters.
quote:
Plus, looking at the context of Ps. 51, David is speaking of his sins and transgressions throughout the whole psalm. To say that in the one verse he jumps to his suspected mother's sin (of which he would not be responsible for) is a stretch to say the least.
It seems to be a stretch for him to blame his "nature" rather than his own choice.
In the New Testament, the only reference we find to the phrase "born in sins" is the following:
John 9:34 They answered and said unto him, Thou wast altogether born in sins, and dost thou teach us? And they cast him out.
The Pharisees used this phrase to express profound disgust. It would be quite odd indeed if the Jews were of the opinion that the same was true of everyone; it would amount to a, "Yeah, so what? So are you."
quote:
Why does the bible say in Adam, all are dying (1 Cor. 15)?
Why does the Bible say in Christ all shall be made alive?
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WormBowedB4TerribleGod
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 43
| Posted 8/27/2004 3:56 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
JEE-
Thank you for clearing up the article. I will have to research the theory for myself.
Now, now, you can't be answering my question with another question. Why are we all dying in Adam? Through one man sin entered the world, and through sin death and thus death passed into all mankind (Roman 5:12-13). Even if we do not sin after the likeness of Adam we are still dying. Why? (I have my thoughts, I am interested in hearing yours)
Why did you leave out "because all sinned" when you (mis)quoted Romans 5:12?
Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--
"death spread to all men because all sinned"
Who are you, oh worm, to question the living God? | | Back to Top | | |
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 8/27/2004 4:27 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by JEE
quote:
Originally posted by lock
JEE-
Thank you for clearing up the article. I will have to research the theory for myself.
Now, now, you can't be answering my question with another question. Why are we all dying in Adam? Through one man sin entered the world, and through sin death and thus death passed into all mankind (Roman 5:12-13). Even if we do not sin after the likeness of Adam we are still dying. Why? (I have my thoughts, I am interested in hearing yours)
The reason I asked my question was that in the verse you cited, "in Christ all shall be made alive" is stated in juxtaposition to "in Adam all die." As I don't find universalism to make sense of the totality of the Scriptures, my view right now is that this verse means: "All those who follow Adam (sinning) die, while all those who follow Christ (righteousness) shall be made alive."
In Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
The word translated "in" is the Greek word en which denotes being or remaining within, with the primary idea of rest and continuance. We die because of our relation to Adam as seen in Romans 5:12-19.
Lock
His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. | | Back to Top | | |
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 8/27/2004 4:45 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by WormBowedB4TerribleGod
quote:
Originally posted by lock
JEE-
Thank you for clearing up the article. I will have to research the theory for myself.
Now, now, you can't be answering my question with another question. Why are we all dying in Adam? Through one man sin entered the world, and through sin death and thus death passed into all mankind (Roman 5:12-13). Even if we do not sin after the likeness of Adam we are still dying. Why? (I have my thoughts, I am interested in hearing yours)
Why did you leave out "because all sinned" when you (mis)quoted Romans 5:12?
Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--
"death spread to all men because all sinned"
Worm-
If you break it down to the original Greek, it does not say "because" all have sinned. The Concordant Literal New Testament translates the phrase "on which all sinned". I am not disagreeing that we choose to sin and I do not buy into the whole "original sin" concept. My question has been why has death reigned over those who did not sin in the likeness of the transgression of Adam (Romans 5:14). Verse 17 "by the offense of one, death reigns through one", I understand this as death reigning through Adam. We sin becasue we are still mortal, and that is our relationship to Adam.
JEE-
If I am understanding your position correctly, if a person chooses not to sin, and they are able to accomplish this, then they would not die. The only reason we die, is because we sin. Is this correct?
Lock
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