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JEE
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 8/27/2004 4:51 PM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
Originally posted by lock
If I am understanding your position correctly, if a person chooses not to sin, and they are able to accomplish this, then they would not die. The only reason we die, is because we sin. Is this correct?
No, that would not be my position. We die because we are mortal. Do you believe stillborn infants have sinned and thus have brought death on themselves?
My position is simply this: Those who follow Christ (righteousness) shall live (spiritually), and those that follow Adam (sinning) shall die (spiritually).
As all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God (and I affirm that), then it follows that in order to live spiritually, the sinner must cease following Adam and begin following Jesus. In other words, he must fulfill the human conditions of entrance into salvation; namely, repentance and faith in God.
Physical death, in my view, is simply the consequence of being a finite being in a mortal body, though of course God reserves the right to end our physical life when he thinks it wisest to do so. (See my most recent posts in the "I have met the devil, and he is me" thread) : http://gregboyd.org/gbfront/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3585
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lock
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| Posted 8/27/2004 5:22 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by JEE
No, that would not be my position. We die because we are mortal. Do you believe stillborn infants have sinned and thus have brought death on themselves?
My position is simply this: Those who follow Christ (righteousness) shall live (spiritually), and those that follow Adam (sinning) shall die (spiritually).
As all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God (and I affirm that), then it follows that in order to live spiritually, the sinner must cease following Adam and begin following Jesus. In other words, he must fulfill the human conditions of entrance into salvation; namely, repentance and faith in God.
Physical death, in my view, is simply the consequence of being a finite being in a mortal body, though of course God reserves the right to end our physical life when he thinks it wisest to do so. (See my most recent posts in the "I have met the devil, and he is me" thread) : http://gregboyd.org/gbfront/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3585
I will go check out that post.
JEE- do you believe that (spiritual) death is in the lake of fire and brimstone?
quote:
JEE-
In other words, he must fulfill the human conditions of entrance into salvation; namely, repentance and faith in God.
Would this contradict with Eph. 2:8 "For in grace, through faith, are you saved, and this is not out of you."?
Lock
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JEE
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| Posted 8/27/2004 5:26 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
JEE- do you believe that (spiritual) death is in the lake of fire and brimstone?
The Scriptures refer to that as "the second death."
Rev. 21:7 "He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son.
8 "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
quote:
JEE-
In other words, he must fulfill the human conditions of entrance into salvation; namely, repentance and faith in God.
Lock-
Would this contradict with Eph. 2:8 "For in grace, through faith, are you saved, and this is not out of you."?
No, for God's grace grants sinners the ability to repent and believe.
When Peter exhorted the people in Acts 2 to repent, and said, "save yourselves from this wicked and untoward generation," the prevenient grace of God was working in the hearers' hearts, leading them to repentance. In other words, no man can come to Jesus except the Father draw him.
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WormBowedB4TerribleGod
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| Posted 8/27/2004 6:01 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
If you break it down to the original Greek, it does not say "because" all have sinned.
Romans 5:12
NASB Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--
NIV Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned--
KJV Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
ASV Therefore, as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin; and so death passed unto all men, for that all sinned:--
ESV Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned--
NIRV Sin entered the world because one man sinned. And death came because of sin. Everyone sinned, so death came to all people.
NLT When Adam sinned, sin entered the entire human race. Adam's sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned.
CEV Adam sinned, and that sin brought death into the world. Now everyone has sinned, and so everyone must die.
English translations produced by teams of Greek scholars.
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WormBowedB4TerribleGod
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| Posted 8/27/2004 6:04 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
quote:
When Peter exhorted the people in Acts 2 to repent, and said, "save yourselves from this wicked and untoward generation," the prevenient grace of God was working in the hearers' hearts, leading them to repentance. In other words, no man can come to Jesus except the Father draw him.
So, is the Father then choosing those whom He is drawing? And what about those who He is not drawing?
John 12:32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."
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JEE
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| Posted 8/27/2004 6:07 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
quote:
When Peter exhorted the people in Acts 2 to repent, and said, "save yourselves from this wicked and untoward generation," the prevenient grace of God was working in the hearers' hearts, leading them to repentance. In other words, no man can come to Jesus except the Father draw him.
So, is the Father then choosing those whom He is drawing? And what about those who He is not drawing?
Lock
Certainly. Those whom he is not drawing (at sny particular moment in time) are described in Scripture as having hardened their hearts. God has "given them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not fitting."
Conversely, as Christ says, "blessed are those who hunger and thirst after righteousness, for they shall be filled," and "in every nation he that feareth God and worketh righteousness is accepted of Him (like Cornelius in Acts 10). Additionally, in Acts 17 Paul says that the heathen could grope after God and find Him:
Acts 17:27 so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, "For we are also His offspring.' 29Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man's devising. 30Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead."
This in perfect agreement with:
Romans 2:6 who "will render to each one according to his deeds": 7eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath, 9tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11For there is no partiality with God.
12For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13(for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.
Or, as Apostle John said:
John 5:28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29and come forth--those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. 30I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.
(Ditto to Worm's comment about all men being drawn to Christ).
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JEE
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Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 8/27/2004 6:22 PM (GMT -6) | | The following is a quote from A.T. Overstreet's book, Are Men Born Sinners? :
quote:
The Bible teaches that the believer can live without sin. Its pages are filled with promises to the believer that he can live a holy life and have victory over sin, temptation, the world, the flesh, and the devil:
Thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. Matt. 1:21
Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin...If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. John 8:34, 36
For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world. I John 5:4
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. I John 3:6.
And we know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. I John 5:18
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. I John 3:9
Sin shall not have dominion over you; for ye are not under the law, but under grace. Rom. 6:6
Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen. Jude 24, 25
Now, who are we going to believe? Will we accept the uncertain declarations of mere men or will we accept the sure Word of God? If, after all that God has said and promised in his Holy Book, it is still impossible to live without sin, then God is a liar, deceitful, and insincere. Surely, if it is impossible to live without sin, God knows it! Yet he promises victory over sin. He commands holiness and Christian perfection. "Be ye holy, for I am holy." I Peter 1:15. "Be ye therefore perfect, even as you father which is in heaven is perfect." Matt. 5:48. Would God command us to walk in Christian holiness and Christian perfection if he knew it was impossible for us? I cannot believe it! Do those who propagate the evil doctrine of original sin know its implications on the character of God? If God knows that we can't obey him, if he knows that we are born with a corrupt sinful nature which makes obedience impossible, then he is insincere and deceitful in commanding us to do what he knows is impossible. And if God knows that we are born with a sinful nature that makes sin necessary, then all his promises of grace and power to keep us from sin are lies.
http://twtministries.com/articles/11_born_sin/overstreet/os_mbs_04.html#chap11
(I have permission from the owner of the above website to cut and paste the above).
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WormBowedB4TerribleGod
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| Posted 8/27/2004 6:23 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
My question has been why has death reigned over those who did not sin in the likeness of the transgression of Adam (Romans 5:14). Verse 17 "by the offense of one, death reigns through one", I understand this as death reigning through Adam. We sin becasue we are still mortal, and that is our relationship to Adam.
Romans 5:12 death spread to all men because all sinned
That's why death reigns in all.
Romans 3:23 For all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God.
Romans 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
Why Moses?
Romans 5:13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Here's my rough idea. Adam had a closer relationship with God than most people do, he seemed to have a more covenantal relationship, being placed in charge of the garden, etc.
From Adam to Moses, there was not that kind of directness, though we do see Noah, Job, Melchizedek, Abram, Isaac, Jacob, etc. making sacrifices.
When Moses brought the Law, a more direct, covenantal relationship came about.
So what was sinning in the likeness of Adam's transgression?
Hosea 6:7
But like Adam they have transgressed the covenant;
There they have dealt treacherously against Me.
They (from Adam to Moses) were sinning despite not being in a covenantal relationship with God.
This is why Paul gets into how Law shuts us up in disobedience and for a time God "winked" at sin, Acts 17.
That and $1.10 can buy you a bottle of pop.
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lock
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| Posted 8/29/2004 6:07 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
I cannot believe it! Do those who propagate the evil doctrine of original sin know its implications on the character of God? If God knows that we can't obey him, if he knows that we are born with a corrupt sinful nature which makes obedience impossible, then he is insincere and deceitful in commanding us to do what he knows is impossible. And if God knows that we are born with a sinful nature that makes sin necessary, then all his promises of grace and power to keep us from sin are lies.
First, as I said above, I am not speaking of the doctine of original sin.
Our fleshy, earthy bodies cannot completely keep all of God's commands. If what you are claiming above is true, that we have all we need to choose not to sin in our fleshy nature, then what is the necessity of the cross of Christ?
1 Cor. 15:50 "flesh and blood is not able to enjoy the allotment of incorruption."
Lock
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JEE
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 8/29/2004 7:50 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
quote:
I cannot believe it! Do those who propagate the evil doctrine of original sin know its implications on the character of God? If God knows that we can't obey him, if he knows that we are born with a corrupt sinful nature which makes obedience impossible, then he is insincere and deceitful in commanding us to do what he knows is impossible. And if God knows that we are born with a sinful nature that makes sin necessary, then all his promises of grace and power to keep us from sin are lies.
First, as I said above, I am not speaking of the doctine of original sin.
Our fleshy, earthy bodies cannot completely keep all of God's commands.
Well, God's word says different:
Deut 30:10 if you obey the LORD your God to keep His commandments and His statutes which are written in this book of the law, if you turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and soul.
11 ¶ "For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach.
12 "It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?'
13 "Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?'
14 "But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it.
John 14:15 ¶ "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.
1 John 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.
quote:
If what you are claiming above is true, that we have all we need to choose not to sin in our fleshy nature, then what is the necessity of the cross of Christ?
The necessity of the cross of Christ is so that God might be
"just, and the justifier of him that has faith in Jesus." The cross of Christ is necessary because all people, upon reaching the age of moral accountability, have freely chosen to sin, and "without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sins."
The scenario commonly taught is that Jesus died because the Father knew you couldn't really obey Him. From my perspective, the reason they cannot is that they will not. Scripture everywhere places the blame for sin squarely on the individual sinner.
quote:
1 Cor. 15:50 "flesh and blood is not able to enjoy the allotment of incorruption."
I do not deny that fact; I completely affirm it. However, the reason this is true does not have to be what it sounds like you are assuming it is; i.e., that human beings are inherently unable to obey God. If that is true, then how is God not the most impossible tyrant imaginable, commanding man to avoid, on pain of eternal death in hell, that which is absolutely unavoidable (sin)?
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lock
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| Posted 8/30/2004 10:28 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
I do not deny that fact; I completely affirm it. However, the reason this is true does not have to be what it sounds like you are assuming it is; i.e., that human beings are inherently unable to obey God. If that is true, then how is God not the most impossible tyrant imaginable, commanding man to avoid, on pain of eternal death in hell, that which is absolutely unavoidable (sin)?
Isreal was unable to keep the covenant made with God. Their history is proof of this. If you break one tiny commandment, you are responsible for the whole law. You are assuming that sin snuck into the world behind God's back. You are assuming that God does not have a purpose for sin and evil and suffering in the world. Salvation is not out of ourselves, it is the gift of God. Your last sentence makes it sound like our eternal destiny is based on our obedience. This is exactly what Paul warned the Galatians believers against! Justification is through faith alone.
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JEE
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| Posted 8/30/2004 1:30 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
quote:
I do not deny that fact; I completely affirm it. However, the reason this is true does not have to be what it sounds like you are assuming it is; i.e., that human beings are inherently unable to obey God. If that is true, then how is God not the most impossible tyrant imaginable, commanding man to avoid, on pain of eternal death in hell, that which is absolutely unavoidable (sin)?
Isreal was unable to keep the covenant made with God. Their history is proof of this. If you break one tiny commandment, you are responsible for the whole law. You are assuming that sin snuck into the world behind God's back. You are assuming that God does not have a purpose for sin and evil and suffering in the world. Salvation is not out of ourselves, it is the gift of God. Your last sentence makes it sound like our eternal destiny is based on our obedience. This is exactly what Paul warned the Galatians believers against! Justification is through faith alone.
Hi Lock,
Let's stick to the question at hand--whether or not people have the ability to obey God. I assume we both agree that no one but Christ ever lived to an adult age without sinning.
As to God having a purpose for sin and evil in the world, it seems to me that you are assuming that sin and evil come from God. I do not. The narrative of the Fall certainly leaves one with the impression that God did not expect them to sin, and that he was very disappointed when they did.
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lock
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| Posted 8/30/2004 6:11 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
As to God having a purpose for sin and evil in the world, it seems to me that you are assuming that sin and evil come from God. I do not. The narrative of the Fall certainly leaves one with the impression that God did not expect them to sin, and that he was very disappointed when they did.
Hello JEE-
Sin does not come from God; though God clearly states He creates evil (Is. 45:7) So evil is not necessarily sin. Evil can be sin, but there are many passages in the scriptures which clearly speak of evil coming from God, so evil is not always sin. God had a purpose behind creating a creature which is capable of sinning. Rom. 8:3, "for what was impossible to the law, in which, it was infirm through the flesh". I do not think that sin snuck in behind God's back as you are claiming. I believe He has a purpose for all things.
Lock
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JEE
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| Posted 8/30/2004 7:05 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
quote:
As to God having a purpose for sin and evil in the world, it seems to me that you are assuming that sin and evil come from God. I do not. The narrative of the Fall certainly leaves one with the impression that God did not expect them to sin, and that he was very disappointed when they did.
Hello JEE-
Sin does not come from God; though God clearly states He creates evil (Is. 45:7)
Scholarly translations render that as "calamity," or "woe." In context, God is visiting temporal judgment upon people for their sins, which is a RIGHTEOUS thing for God to do. Isaiah 45:7 does not say God creates MORAL evil (sin).
quote:
So evil is not necessarily sin. Evil can be sin, but there are many passages in the scriptures which clearly speak of evil coming from God, so evil is not always sin. God had a purpose behind creating a creature which is capable of sinning. Rom. 8:3, "for what was impossible to the law, in which, it was infirm through the flesh". I do not think that sin snuck in behind God's back as you are claiming. I believe He has a purpose for all things.
Lock
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lock
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| Posted 8/31/2004 5:10 PM (GMT -6) | | JEE-
We both agree that the Father draws men to the Son. We agree that only in the Son can we be freed from the law of sin and death. Where I think that we disagree is that you believe that after God has drawn man, then man needs to make the choice of repenting and accepting God's salvation or not. I agree that in order for one to be saved they must repent and have faith, but I do not believe that mortal man, fleshy man, soulish man is capable of making this choice without the intervention of God. Whether a man chooses to believe God during this age or not is entirely in God's hands.
Proverbs 16:9 "In his heart a man plans his course, but the Lord determine his steps."
Prov. 19:21 "Many are the plans in a man's heart, but it is the Lord's purpose that prevails."
Prov. 20:24 "A man's steps are directed by the Lord. How then can anyone understand his own way?"
Prov. 21:1 "The king's heart is in the hand of the Lord; He directs it like a watercourse wherever He pleases."
Jer. 10:23 "Oh Lord, I know that the way of man is not in himself, it is not in man that walks to direct his steps."
Israel is the prime example of this. Throughout their history they have failed to keep God's covenant because they have tried to do it by their own ability through the law, which Rom. 8:3 tells us is impossible in that is was weak through the flesh. God has always kept to Himself a faithful remnant (1 Kings 19:18 for example). At the height of Israel's apostacy (the tribulation) God will wipe out the chaff and at that time God Himself will write His law in the hearts of Israel (Jer. 31:32) when He gathers them from the four winds. Unless a man is born again (the evangel of the circumcision and the kingdom on earth) or becomes a new creation in Christ(the evangel of the uncircumcision, the body of Christ blessed in the heavenlies) they are incapable of repenting and believing because it is not out of themselves, it is of God.
Lock
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JEE
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| Posted 8/31/2004 7:08 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
quote:
Scholarly translations render that as "calamity," or "woe." In context, God is visiting temporal judgment upon people for their sins, which is a RIGHTEOUS thing for God to do. Isaiah 45:7 does not say God creates MORAL evil (sin).
JEE-
Of course, Is. 45:7 does not say God creates moral evil (sin). That was the point of the second half of my post. The judgments brought against Egypt are called great and "sore" (same word [raa] as evil in Is. 45:7). Evil in a pure sense is not sin. God does not sin, yet He brings evil about to complete His purposes. This is clearly taught in the bible.
Lock
In light of the fact that so many scholarly translations render this word as "calamity," and not "evil," I see no good reason to use the term, "evil," either, as it only confuses people to say God is perfectly good, holy, righteous, etc., AND that he "creates evil." He brings about calamity to judge sinners and to induce them to repentance. But to say "God creates evil," or "God brings about evil" to the average person conveys the idea that God is working against himself and is inherently contradictory or schizo.
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JEE
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| Posted 8/31/2004 7:17 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
JEE-
We both agree that the Father draws men to the Son. We agree that only in the Son can we be freed from the law of sin and death. Where I think that we disagree is that you believe that after God has drawn man, then man needs to make the choice of repenting and accepting God's salvation or not. I agree that in order for one to be saved they must repent and have faith, but I do not believe that mortal man, fleshy man, soulish man is capable of making this choice without the intervention of God.
Nor do I. Prevenient grace IS "the intervention of God."
quote:
Proverbs 16:9 "In his heart a man plans his course, but the Lord determine his steps."
Prov. 19:21 "Many are the plans in a man's heart, but it is the Lord's purpose that prevails."
Prov. 20:24 "A man's steps are directed by the Lord. How then can anyone understand his own way?"
If these verses are taken as literally and universally true, then we are forced to admit that God DIRECTS people to hell, regardless of their choice (sheer determinism/Calvinism).
quote:
Israel is the prime example of this. Throughout their history they have failed to keep God's covenant because they have tried to do it by their own ability through the law, which Rom. 8:3 tells us is impossible in that is was weak through the flesh.
Abraham was justified by faith (Rom. 4). Hebrews 11 reveals that several notable saints lived prior to the New Covenant--and they all knew the truth that Abraham found out; "the just shall LIVE by faith." Also, in Deut. 30 GOD says that HE will circumcise their hearts, so that they may serve Him with their whole heart. Righteous living has NEVER been about "earning", it has always been about walking by FAITH. The fact that most Jews in Paul's time (referred to in Romans 9-11) "sought it not by faith, but by works of the Law," does not mean that no Jew EVER sought righteousness by faith. Indeed, Heb. 11 alone reveals that a great many pre-NT people learned the righteousness which is of God by faith, just as Abraham did.
quote:
God has always kept to Himself a faithful remnant (1 Kings 19:18 for example).
I completely agree. Did any of this remnant EARN their righteousness before God? Of course not.
quote:
At the height of Israel's apostacy (the tribulation) God will wipe out the chaff and at that time God Himself will write His law in the hearts of Israel (Jer. 31:32) when He gathers them from the four winds. Unless a man is born again (the evangel of the circumcision and the kingdom on earth) or becomes a new creation in Christ(the evangel of the uncircumcision, the body of Christ blessed in the heavenlies) they are incapable of repenting and believing because it is not out of themselves, it is of God.
So it's GOD's fault if someone doesn't repent, right?
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lock
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| Posted 9/1/2004 6:34 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
If these verses are taken as literally and universally true, then we are forced to admit that God DIRECTS people to hell, regardless of their choice (sheer determinism/Calvinism).
You are assuming that hell, according to christian theology, exists. I believe that the bodies of those who transgress against the Lord during the millennium will be burned up in gehenna. I believe that when we all die, that our flesh will return to the earth, the spirit returns to God, and our perception will be in the unseen or hades or shoel(translated hell or the grave), which describes the unconscious state of death. I believe that there are angels chained in tartarus (also translated hell). And I believe that the lake of fire and brimstone is the second death, not a person being alive for eternal torment. Now if your question is do I believe that God wil determine for some to go through the white throne judgment and then be cast into the lake of fire and brimstone which is the second death, thus missing out onthe 2 most glorious eons of all time, then my answer would be yes!
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