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JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 8/24/2004 11:45 AM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
Originally posted by Sahid
I'm not trying to start another feud, but why would the determinist evangelize? If the future is planned, regardless of what we (or, in Lee's view, unbelievers) "choose", is there a point to it? I know that many self-identified Calvinists evangelize, and I'm wondering what the logic is.
The determinist evangelizes because it is God's will that he evangelize (the Great Commission), knowing that those whom God wills to be saved will be effectually called, regenerated, justified, and glorified. The determinist views this as simply obeying the express command of the Lord to go into all the world and preach the gospel to all people. The compatibilistic view of free will (that many determinists hold to) says that if one has a desire to evangelize, this is a God-given desire, and if we act on this desire, it is a God-given ability to act.
On this view of free will, even if we THINK we are evangelizing by our own choice, the motivation behind our choice has been implanted in us by God, the choice has been empowered by God, those whom God calls are similarly motivated to choose the gospel, and thus God receives all the glory.
It's hard for me to see how this does not present God as motivating unbelievers to continue in their unbelief (and thus God effectively unilaterally forcing people to go to hell), but in any case, that's how I understand the logic behind the determinist's actions.
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sometimesisquint
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 91
| Posted 8/24/2004 12:24 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by JEE
The determinist evangelizes because it is God's will that he evangelize (the Great Commission), knowing that those whom God wills to be saved will be effectually called, regenerated, justified, and glorified. The determinist views this as simply obeying the express command of the Lord to go into all the world and preach the gospel to all people. The compatibilistic view of free will (that many determinists hold to) says that if one has a desire to evangelize, this is a God-given desire, and if we act on this desire, it is a God-given ability to act.
I've heard a similar answer many times from Calvinists (and I'm sure they appreciate the frequency of the question as often as open theists appreciate the stock quote "You're a heretic who denies God's omniscience"--I know I do  ). I still have difficulty with such a response. Even though I understand the importance of "obedience", to answer in such a way seems to undermine the reality of the issue.
I always believed (and was taught) that the act of servanthood had two motivating factors: Obedience and Need (and the call to obey was in response TO the general Need). Christ seemed to react to the needs of the people out of compassion, not ONLY because of an obedience to the structure OF reacting. That's where my confusion begins. After all, I don't know many people who go through such a seemingly pointless process under similar circumstances.
Many determinists also imply that evangelism (and prayer) is primarily beneficial to the individual evangelizing (or praying) in that their faith is strenghtened, etc. This seems completely contrary to the point of such supposedly outward and responsive acts.
"What's partner yoga?"
"It's when you're two with the universe."
-My Friend Keith
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When life gives you dish rags, you make...a kite that won't fly in the rain. | | Back to Top | | |
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feelinahole
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 8/24/2004 4:43 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 8/25/2004 4:26 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi everyone,
quote:
Lee: God wants us to participate!
FIH: Cause we have nothing better to do?
Well, no, our participation is not made meaningless if God's plans are always successful, regardless of our choices. It's not meaningless for us, for instance!
1 Corinthians 9:17 If I preach voluntarily, I have a reward...
quote:
Sahid: But if evangelism is the God ordained means of salvation, and He also ordains the salvation of the unbeliever, than how are Christians free? Couldn't a Christian "frustrate" God's purpose.
No, because sinning makes us not free! And all sinful actions are still part of God's plan. Thus, well … we can't beat God's purpose:
Jeremiah 32:19 … great are your purposes and mighty are your deeds.
God's deeds match his purposes! He doesn't have more purposes than accomplishments…
quote:
Jee: How Christians are "free" in this scenario is the following:
1. Free to do what they desire.
2. Their desires are all given to them by God.
(Personally, I don't buy it, but from what I know points 1 and 2 above are the compatibilist position on free will).
Yes, I disagree with that, a caused choice is not a free one, it doesn't matter if people do what they want, if what they want is caused and controlled, and produces their decision…
Blessings,
Lee
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 8/25/2004 5:41 PM (GMT -6) | | 2 Cor. 5:18-21 (CLNT)
Yet all is of God, Who conciliates us to Himself through Christ, and is giving us the dispensation of the conciliation, how that God was in Christ, conciliating the world to Himself, not reckoning their offenses to them, and placing in us the word of concilation. For Christ, then, we are ambassadors, as of God entreating through us. We are beseeching for Christ's sake, "Be conciliated to God!"
All is of God and He has done all the work through Jesus Christ to conciliate the world to Himself, and through us He brings others to the realization of this conciliation.
Lock
His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. | | Back to Top | | |
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borg
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 324
| Posted 8/25/2004 8:15 PM (GMT -6) | | You're right, I cannot imagine why a Determinist would evangelize, then again, I don't know any Determinists. However, I do know why a Calvinist would evangelize and if you are interested in that, let me know.
Blessings,
Borg
"So it is a more glorious work of power to uphold a soul in a state of grace and holiness, and to carry it on till it is brought to glory, when there is so much sin remaining in the heart resisting, and Satan with all his might opposing, than it would have been to have kept manfrom falling at first, when Satan had nothing in man." Edwards | | Back to Top | | |
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Sahid
Megistered Rember
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 2013
| Posted 8/25/2004 10:18 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
No, because sinning makes us not free! And all sinful actions are still part of God's plan. Thus, well … we can't beat God's purpose:
quote:
Yes, I disagree with that, a caused choice is not a free one, it doesn't matter if people do what they want, if what they want is caused and controlled, and produces their decision…
This looks like a contradiction to me. Christians are free so long as they don't sin? It's like saying I'm free to eat any flavor of ice cream I want as long as the only flavor I want is vanilla. That's not freedom.
If I sin, God made me. If I don't sin, I'm free? Free to do what? If God wants me to sin, I'm gonna sin. No freedom there. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say there's a dichotomy here: An action is either sinful or it aint. If this dictotomy is how things really are, then either all choices are free or all are not free, because the only way we can do good is if God doesn't want us to sin. In this scenario, God is everything. There aren't other persons made in His image, just slaves with the delusion that they have control over their actions.
Sorry about the tone. I get going... At least I didn't use all caps or bold or something.
Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre | | Back to Top | | |
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 8/26/2004 7:43 AM (GMT -6) | | 1 John 2:
1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
If anyone sins, Jesus is their advocate. Not just for us, but for "the whole world".
if != when
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 8/26/2004 8:15 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sisters of Cain
1 John 2:
1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
If anyone sins, Jesus is their advocate. Not just for us, but for "the whole world".
if != when
SOC-
This sounds a bit like a universalist  .
His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. | | Back to Top | | |
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 8/26/2004 8:24 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
quote:
Originally posted by Sisters of Cain
1 John 2:
1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
If anyone sins, Jesus is their advocate. Not just for us, but for "the whole world".
if != when
SOC-
This sounds a bit like a universalist .
Jesus' propitiation is available to all....
Hebrews 2:
1 For this reason we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away from it.
2 For if the word spoken through angels proved unalterable, and every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty,
3 how will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation?
as long as we don't neglect it or drift away from it.
Which is why Paul exhorted the believers to pay attention and NOT to neglect it or drift away from it.
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 8/26/2004 8:40 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sisters of Cain
quote:
Originally posted by lock
quote:
Originally posted by Sisters of Cain
1 John 2:
1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
If anyone sins, Jesus is their advocate. Not just for us, but for "the whole world".
if != when
SOC-
This sounds a bit like a universalist .
Jesus' propitiation is available to all....
Hebrews 2:
1 For this reason we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away from it.
2 For if the word spoken through angels proved unalterable, and every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty,
3 how will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation?
as long as we don't neglect it or drift away from it.
Which is why Paul exhorted the believers to pay attention and NOT to neglect it or drift away from it.
If anyone sins, Jesus is their advocate. Not just for us, but for "the whole world".
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So, Jesus is an advocate for you even if you do not choose to accept His gift?
Lock
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 8/26/2004 8:47 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
So, Jesus is an advocate for you even if you do not choose to accept His gift?
Look "neglect" up in a dictionary.
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borg
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 324
| Posted 8/26/2004 9:06 AM (GMT -6) | | And what of the verses later on in 1 John that tell us that if we are in Christ we no longer sin, and if we do sin, we are not of the Father but of the Devil? and Romans 6:2 that if we are DEAD to sin, how can we live in it any longer? and what of the parable of the trees, a good tree CANNOT bear BAD fruit... do we stop sinning once we are in Christ? Is sanctification possible here on earth?
Grace Alone,
Borg
"So it is a more glorious work of power to uphold a soul in a state of grace and holiness, and to carry it on till it is brought to glory, when there is so much sin remaining in the heart resisting, and Satan with all his might opposing, than it would have been to have kept manfrom falling at first, when Satan had nothing in man." Edwards | | Back to Top | | |
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 8/26/2004 9:08 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 8/26/2004 9:55 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by borg
we sin because we are sinners.
Adam wasn't a sinner before he sinned.
We aren't skiers if we never ski.
Because He never sinned, Jesus wasn't a sinner.
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