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Mordecai
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 19
| Posted 8/27/2004 4:30 PM (GMT -6) |   | I have read that prayer is actually better in OVTism because our prayer actually have an effect on God. But since God (OVT) only knows future possibilities for free agents, I am wondering how He could wisely answer prayers.
Here's an example for the sake of discussion, John prays that his uncle James would be healed of a terminal disease, but then one of the possibilities as a result of healing James might be that he would decide to take a drive and accidentally kill someone else a month later. Assuming James and the person killed a month later are both non-Christians. How can God wisely answer John's prayer?
Thanx for the input in advance. | | Back to Top | | |
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Mordecai
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 19
| Posted 8/27/2004 7:32 PM (GMT -6) | | Thanx JEE. So God's understanding and intelligence is infinite and He takes bona fide risks. I understand that too about OVTism. But then how do OVs reconcile that with God's infinite WISDOM? How is God's wisdom apparent when He grants or not grant a prayer request since He doesn't know (as certain) what will happen in the future as a result of granting or not granting a prayer request? Whether it is to the detriment of the requestor or others around him? What if as a result thousands if not millions die?
It seems then that God is stripped of His wisdom in OVTism especially when it comes to answering people's prayers. Please share your thoughts on this. | | Back to Top | | |
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1Heart
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Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 8/27/2004 8:57 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Mordecai
Thanx JEE. So God's understanding and intelligence is infinite and He takes bona fide risks. I understand that too about OVTism. But then how do OVs reconcile that with God's infinite WISDOM? How is God's wisdom apparent when He grants or not grant a prayer request since He doesn't know (as certain) what will happen in the future as a result of granting or not granting a prayer request? Whether it is to the detriment of the requestor or others around him? What if as a result thousands if not millions die?
It seems then that God is stripped of His wisdom in OVTism especially when it comes to answering people's prayers. Please share your thoughts on this.
Some late night thoughts here, so they might be kind of "fuzzy". God is not a God who answers prayer, then "takes His hands off" things. He's very much involved, not coercing, or predetermining - but influencing, and persuading. He does know what is best ("Father knows Best"  ), but beyond that - actions without love really mean nothing. If we only obeyed the Father because we feared Him, what kind of relationship would that be, and what would the end result be? Would we share with others the matchless grace of Jesus?
I've only been exploring this view for a couple of years, but I believed part of me longed to believe that my prayers really did make a difference - and now I know they do. God would have to revoke free will to solve the dilemna you presented, and that would not be love. Love is freely given, and freely received, or it is not love. It is not coerced. Prayer must make sense in light of that. It does to me. I've never had such a loving view of God, until I was introduced to this view.
I've come to understand what I call the "choice by choice I affect eternity" view of the open view. We truly are colaborers with Christ. We are saboteurs involved in spiritual warfare.
What do you believe about prayer?
'Nite and God Bless,
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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cbost6421
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Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 65
| Posted 8/30/2004 10:09 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by moon_river_j
Some late night thoughts here, so they might be kind of "fuzzy". God is not a God who answers prayer, then "takes His hands off" things. He's very much involved, not coercing, or predetermining - but influencing, and persuading. He does know what is best ("Father knows Best" ), but beyond that - actions without love really mean nothing.
Mordecai,
In your example, God would be influencing Uncle James not to drive poorly, and could influence the person He hit not to be in the area. The fact that your example shows one possibility as inevitable is showing that the example reveals little of the Open View, because the God in the Open View works on all possibilities in the situation, not just the one to cure the terminal disease! He would also be worlking on these people's salvation, this to me, would also be included in John's prayer!
God Bless!
-Chuck
stu.westga.edu/~cbost1/openviewtheism.html
"those who pray truly are theologians and those who are theologians pray truly"
-Evagrios The Solidary | | Back to Top | | |
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Mordecai
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 19
| Posted 9/3/2004 3:30 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by JEE
It is not clear (to me at least) how Calvinism or Arminianism present a view of God that reflects more wisdom than the Open View does.
Well Calvinism and Arminianism both affirm the classical sense of God's foreknowledge. Equipped with such, God then would seem to be in a better position to wisely grant or not grant a prayer request. How can God in OVTism do this when God is not aware of what will certainly happen in the future? Since He wouldn't know if granting a request, or not, is detrimental to the petitioner or to others around him. | | Back to Top | | |
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Mordecai
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 19
| Posted 9/3/2004 3:35 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by cbost6421
Mordecai,
In your example, God would be influencing Uncle James not to drive poorly, and could influence the person He hit not to be in the area. The fact that your example shows one possibility as inevitable is showing that the example reveals little of the Open View, because the God in the Open View works on all possibilities in the situation, not just the one to cure the terminal disease! He would also be worlking on these people's salvation, this to me, would also be included in John's prayer!
God Bless!
-Chuck
That's the thing Chuck, I wasn't saying my scenario was inevitable. I was saying it is one of the possibilities that God knows. But since it is only a possibility in God's mind, then He does not know if it will be the actuality that will happen. How can He then wisely grant or not grant any prayer request? | | Back to Top | | |
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JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 9/3/2004 4:08 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Mordecai
quote:
Originally posted by JEE
It is not clear (to me at least) how Calvinism or Arminianism present a view of God that reflects more wisdom than the Open View does.
Well Calvinism and Arminianism both affirm the classical sense of God's foreknowledge. Equipped with such, God then would seem to be in a better position to wisely grant or not grant a prayer request.
I fail to see how God knowing with a certainty every future event in history makes him out to be wise at all. (In fact, I would say that traditional foreknowledge reveals him to be at best inept and at worst totally tyrannical, unloving, uncompassionate, indeed, SINFUL).
How is it wise to create a race with the certain knowledge that the vast majority of mankind would end up in hell, with no possibility whatsoever to be redeemed? How is it wise to create, for instance, an Adolf Hitler (or even Satan), knowing full well what horrendous crimes such a person would commit?
quote:
How can God in OVTism do this when God is not aware of what will certainly happen in the future? Since He wouldn't know if granting a request, or not, is detrimental to the petitioner or to others around him.
God in OVTism knows all possibilities and every detail of every situation. In addition, he is supremely benevolent in his character. On these grounds, the God of OVTism is perfectly capable of wisely granting a request (or of not granting a request).
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Mordecai
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 19
| Posted 9/3/2004 6:31 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by JEE
I fail to see how God knowing with a certainty every future event in history makes him out to be wise at all. (In fact, I would say that traditional foreknowledge reveals him to be at best inept and at worst totally tyrannical, unloving, uncompassionate, indeed, SINFUL).
How is it wise to create a race with the certain knowledge that the vast majority of mankind would end up in hell, with no possibility whatsoever to be redeemed? How is it wise to create, for instance, an Adolf Hitler (or even Satan), knowing full well what horrendous crimes such a person would commit?
I appreciate the input JEE but I'm dealing specifically with God being able to wisely answer our prayer requests. That you have problems with God's foreknowledge because some will go to hell and Adolf Hitler is besides the point. Compatibilists do not have a problem with God's foreknowledge and people going to hell. And atrocities done by men like Adolf Hitler seems to me just more evidence that man is free despite God's foreknowledge. But that's already off topic.
quote:
God in OVTism knows all possibilities and every detail of every situation. In addition, he is supremely benevolent in his character. On these grounds, the God of OVTism is perfectly capable of wisely granting a request (or of not granting a request).
But that's the thing, since God knows *only* possibilities, though exhaustive and detailed it maybe, and no matter how supremely benevolent He maybe, He still only knows possibilities. If God responds to a given prayer and it is possible (out of millions other possibilities) that as a result a number of people die, how is it any comfort that God benevolently knew about it as a possibility? More importantly, why can't it be considered then that God made a mistake in granting that request? Thanx for your further response. | | Back to Top | | |
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JEE
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 9/3/2004 7:04 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Mordecai
quote:
Originally posted by JEE
I fail to see how God knowing with a certainty every future event in history makes him out to be wise at all. (In fact, I would say that traditional foreknowledge reveals him to be at best inept and at worst totally tyrannical, unloving, uncompassionate, indeed, SINFUL).
How is it wise to create a race with the certain knowledge that the vast majority of mankind would end up in hell, with no possibility whatsoever to be redeemed? How is it wise to create, for instance, an Adolf Hitler (or even Satan), knowing full well what horrendous crimes such a person would commit?
I appreciate the input JEE but I'm dealing specifically with God being able to wisely answer our prayer requests. That you have problems with God's foreknowledge because some will go to hell and Adolf Hitler is besides the point.
So you'd rather I hadn't brought that up, right? 
But seriously...I don't see how responding to the general idea of wisdom is "besides the point." How do you affirm God is wise if He possesses EDF?
quote:
Compatibilists do not have a problem with God's foreknowledge and people going to hell.
And of course, they can't help it that they don't care. 
quote:
And atrocities done by men like Adolf Hitler seems to me just more evidence that man is free despite God's foreknowledge.
That begs the question of foreknowledge. To me, given that God has revealed himself in Scripture to be GOOD, perfect, wise, LOVE, gracious, merciful, steadfast, etc., I cannot honestly imagine how he could have created Satan or Hitler had He known precisely what choices these monsters would make.
quote:
God in OVTism knows all possibilities and every detail of every situation. In addition, he is supremely benevolent in his character. On these grounds, the God of OVTism is perfectly capable of wisely granting a request (or of not granting a request).
quote:
But that's the thing, since God knows *only* possibilities, though exhaustive and detailed it maybe, and no matter how supremely benevolent He maybe, He still only knows possibilities. If God responds to a given prayer and it is possible (out of millions other possibilities) that as a result a number of people die, how is it any comfort that God benevolently knew about it as a possibility?
It is not the case that in the OV God *only* knows possibilities. The OV explicitly teaches that God not only knows possibilities, He also knows both certainties AND probabilities. In addition, in the OV, God is affirmed to be infinitely intelligent and holy, just, and true in character, and so it does not appear obvious to me why you don't think God could wisely answer prayer in the OV.
quote:
More importantly, why can't it be considered then that God made a mistake in granting that request? Thanx for your further response.
Good question. I'm not sure that "mistake" would be the best word to use when things turn out other than God would have wanted them to. I would say that given the vast amount of knowledge He has in the present which certainly includes "the very thoughts and intents of the heart," and given that God is working out his purpose in history and intends to work out His purpose in believer's lives, that God answers prayer in light of all the above. But as we know from Gen. 6 (and indeed, from most of the history of God's people in the Bible), that the best-laid plans even of God are sometimes not met, due to the sinful, rebellious choices of mankind.
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Mordecai
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 19
| Posted 9/3/2004 7:43 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by JEE
quote:
Originally posted by Mordecai
I appreciate the input JEE but I'm dealing specifically with God being able to wisely answer our prayer requests. That you have problems with God's foreknowledge because some will go to hell and Adolf Hitler is besides the point.
So you'd rather I hadn't brought that up, right?
No, it didn't bother me, I just didn't want to muddy up the discussion with what I think are things extraneous to the issue. Asserting that a God with EDF is unwise does not prove the wisdom of OVT's God in answer to prayers, and that is what's at issue here.
quote:
It is not the case that in the OV God *only* knows possibilities. The OV explicitly teaches that God not only knows possibilities, He also knows both certainties AND probabilities. In addition, in the OV, God is affirmed to be infinitely intelligent and holy, just, and true in character, and so it does not appear obvious to me why you don't think God could wisely answer prayer in the OV.
I certainly understand those about OVTism. When I said God *only* knows possibilities, I meant as far as the contingent future is concerned. Having only such, it does not appear to me that God can wisely grant request without knowing for sure that it will not be to his/her detriment. Infinite intelligence, holiness, etc. do not equate to wisdom.
quote:
Good question. I'm not sure that "mistake" would be the best word to use when things turn out other than God would have wanted them to. I would say that given the vast amount of knowledge He has in the present which certainly includes "the very thoughts and intents of the heart," and given that God is working out his purpose in history and intends to work out His purpose in believer's lives, that God answers prayer in light of all the above. But as we know from Gen. 6 (and indeed, from most of the history of God's people in the Bible), that the best-laid plans even of God are sometimes not met, due to the sinful, rebellious choices of mankind.
How can God even work out His purpose in a believer's life when His best-laid plans can be thwarted by his/her choices? So then, if His best-laid plans can be thwarted, how would He know whether or not granting or not granting a prayer request would thwart His own best-laid plans? After all God does not know all our future decisions. | | Back to Top | | |
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JEE
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 9/3/2004 8:06 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Mordecai
I appreciate the input JEE but I'm dealing specifically with God being able to wisely answer our prayer requests. That you have problems with God's foreknowledge because some will go to hell and Adolf Hitler is besides the point.
quote:
So you'd rather I hadn't brought that up, right?
quote:
No, it didn't bother me, I just didn't want to muddy up the discussion with what I think are things extraneous to the issue. Asserting that a God with EDF is unwise does not prove the wisdom of OVT's God in answer to prayers, and that is what's at issue here.
My point in bringing up such things as the creation of Satan and of Hitler is that the question of God's wisdom is not specific only to the Open View; all theistic views have to deal with such problems somehow.
quote:
It is not the case that in the OV God *only* knows possibilities. The OV explicitly teaches that God not only knows possibilities, He also knows both certainties AND probabilities. In addition, in the OV, God is affirmed to be infinitely intelligent and holy, just, and true in character, and so it does not appear obvious to me why you don't think God could wisely answer prayer in the OV.
quote:
I certainly understand those about OVTism. When I said God *only* knows possibilities, I meant as far as the contingent future is concerned.
Probabilities are by definition future.
quote:
Having only such, it does not appear to me that God can wisely grant request without knowing for sure that it will not be to his/her detriment. Infinite intelligence, holiness, etc. do not equate to wisdom.
Perhaps it is true that in some cases God's granting of certain requests does not appear wise; for example, when God answered Hezekiah's prayer for a longer life, all of Hezekiah's descendents turned out to be evil kings.
quote:
Good question. I'm not sure that "mistake" would be the best word to use when things turn out other than God would have wanted them to. I would say that given the vast amount of knowledge He has in the present which certainly includes "the very thoughts and intents of the heart," and given that God is working out his purpose in history and intends to work out His purpose in believer's lives, that God answers prayer in light of all the above. But as we know from Gen. 6 (and indeed, from most of the history of God's people in the Bible), that the best-laid plans even of God are sometimes not met, due to the sinful, rebellious choices of mankind.
quote:
How can God even work out His purpose in a believer's life when His best-laid plans can be thwarted by his/her choices? So then, if His best-laid plans can be thwarted, how would He know whether or not granting or not granting a prayer request would thwart His own best-laid plans? After all God does not know all our future decisions.
1. God is ABLE to do more than we can ask or THINK.
2. If God knows all our future decisions, then they really aren't decisions on our part, we only THINK we are choosing a certain thing, but in fact it is not a free choice. Compatibilism or sheer determinism are the only views logically consistent with EDF.
3. The Open View, in agreement with the majority of Christianity throughout history, views salvation as synergistic in the sense that it involves human free will to some extent. The objection that "God can't work out his purposes in someone's life" is founded on the idea that for God to work in a person's life they must be totally passive subjects under the Divine Hand. The objection you raise is just as much of an objection against free will theism in general as it is against the Open View.
Paul worked synergistically with God's purpose and power:
Colossians 1:29 For this purpose also I labor, striving according to His power, which mightily works within me.
Luke 7:30 But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God's purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.
Matthew 23:37 "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were unwilling.
1 John 3:7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;
8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.
9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
God's purpose in sending Christ is clearly not being met in those who practice sin, as "the one who practices sin is of the devil," and Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil.
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Bobber
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Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 199
| Posted 9/4/2004 3:24 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
If God knows all our future decisions, then they really aren't decisions on our part, we only THINK we are choosing a certain thing, but in fact it is not a free choice. Compatibilism or sheer determinism are the only views logically consistent with EDF.
[Jee]
This would not be true if in fact God didn't know the future but once the future does occur revelaiton is sent back through time to the beginning. The fact would be that man did make his choices of total and absolute free will. The question of the 2nd loop around the track of time would man be able to change it or is everything locked in is a secondary question....the first fact would remain though....mankind chose his actions of his own free will. | | Back to Top | | |
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cbost6421
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Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 65
| Posted 9/6/2004 6:50 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Mordecai
quote:
Originally posted by cbost6421
Mordecai,
In your example, God would be influencing Uncle James not to drive poorly, and could influence the person He hit not to be in the area. The fact that your example shows one possibility as inevitable is showing that the example reveals little of the Open View, because the God in the Open View works on all possibilities in the situation, not just the one to cure the terminal disease! He would also be worlking on these people's salvation, this to me, would also be included in John's prayer!
God Bless!
-Chuck
That's the thing Chuck, I wasn't saying my scenario was inevitable. I was saying it is one of the possibilities that God knows. But since it is only a possibility in God's mind, then He does not know if it will be the actuality that will happen. How can He then wisely grant or not grant any prayer request?
Because He knows the probablity of that one possibilty becoming actual and is willing to take the risk. In order to love in all actuallities of the situation, he grants access to all possibilities of the situation, that he seems as plausible. It is plausible that both james and the person killed would come to Christ because of this, and God of course influences this, though HE does not coerce. He wisely answers the prayer because at the very least, God would strengthen John's faith, at the best He would have everyone saved back to Him. Either way is wise to me, and we can't fault God on choosing either way (or other ways His wisdom sees) because He knows which way is wiser, not us. He knows which Possibility is better in actuallity, not us.
God BLess,
CHuck
stu.westga.edu/~cbost1/openviewtheism.html
"those who pray truly are theologians and those who are theologians pray truly"
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Mordecai
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 19
| Posted 9/6/2004 7:16 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by JEE
Perhaps it is true that in some cases God's granting of certain requests does not appear wise; for example, when God answered Hezekiah's prayer for a longer life, all of Hezekiah's descendents turned out to be evil kings.
Exactly, thank you. That does appear unwise if God could not predict with accuracy the outcome of Hezekiah's descendants. But if God knew the future of Hezekiah's descendants and had a greater purpose for allowing them to exist then God's wisdom is made clear. But as it is, in OVTism, you are left to admit that God appears unwise. Something very difficult to accept for a God whos depth of wisdom was exalted by Paul.
quote:
1. God is ABLE to do more than we can ask or THINK.
2. If God knows all our future decisions, then they really aren't decisions on our part, we only THINK we are choosing a certain thing, but in fact it is not a free choice. Compatibilism or sheer determinism are the only views logically consistent with EDF.
3. The Open View, in agreement with the majority of Christianity throughout history, views salvation as synergistic in the sense that it involves human free will to some extent. The objection that "God can't work out his purposes in someone's life" is founded on the idea that for God to work in a person's life they must be totally passive subjects under the Divine Hand. The objection you raise is just as much of an objection against free will theism in general as it is against the Open View.
1. Is he really able? Is He really wise? How is He able when His plans can possibly thwarted whether or not He grants what we ask and think? God basically has ZERO assurance that His best plans for us will come to fruition, because they must depend on us cooperating with Him.
2. Indeed compatibilists have no problem with free will and foreknowledge, but that is not the issue. How does God's wisdom exist in answer to our prayers? I'm sorry, but respectfully, so far I have not discerned a cogent response from you. Claiming that He is simply ABLE is not very satisfying, especially in light of your admission that His plans can get thwarted and that He can appear unwise.
3. That maybe so, but that just leaves me to think that OVTism's God is hard-pressed to accomplish anything in a believer's life since He doesn't know if he/she will be cooperating. He seems more impotent than able. | | Back to Top | | |
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JEE
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 9/6/2004 7:51 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Mordecai
quote:
Originally posted by JEE
Perhaps it is true that in some cases God's granting of certain requests does not appear wise; for example, when God answered Hezekiah's prayer for a longer life, all of Hezekiah's descendents turned out to be evil kings.
Exactly, thank you. That does appear unwise if God could not predict with accuracy the outcome of Hezekiah's descendants.
I was speaking of SCRIPTURE, not just OVTism, in bringing up Hezekiah and his descendants. I meant that it is indeed possible that God might appear unwise to OUR perception, based on the narrative accounts of Scripture. But this is not a problem unique to the Open View only.
That said, I think it is likely that God sees it as wisest to grant significant moral freedom to his creatures, even though granting that involves substantial risk. Further, just because Hezekiah's descendants turned out bad does not mean that they COULDN'T HAVE turned out good if they had so chosen.
quote:
But if God knew the future of Hezekiah's descendants and had a greater purpose for allowing them to exist then God's wisdom is made clear.
In the traditional view of foreknowledge, God's wisdom is NOT always made clear, especially in circumstances such as this.
quote:
But as it is, in OVTism, you are left to admit that God appears unwise. Something very difficult to accept for a God whos depth of wisdom was exalted by Paul.
As your own EDF paradigm requires you to admit, "how things appear" does not always define God's wisdom when all is said and done. I don't see how this differs in either OVTism or in EDFism. (God certainly appears unwise in Calvinism and Arminianism, too).
quote:
quote:
1. God is ABLE to do more than we can ask or THINK.
2. If God knows all our future decisions, then they really aren't decisions on our part, we only THINK we are choosing a certain thing, but in fact it is not a free choice. Compatibilism or sheer determinism are the only views logically consistent with EDF.
3. The Open View, in agreement with the majority of Christianity throughout history, views salvation as synergistic in the sense that it involves human free will to some extent. The objection that "God can't work out his purposes in someone's life" is founded on the idea that for God to work in a person's life they must be totally passive subjects under the Divine Hand. The objection you raise is just as much of an objection against free will theism in general as it is against the Open View.
1. Is he really able? Is He really wise? How is He able when His plans can possibly thwarted whether or not He grants what we ask and think?
Well, Scripture says He is able and wise; why do you doubt it? His overall redemptive plan is not able to be thwarted; this the Open View has always positively affirmed.
quote:
God basically has ZERO assurance that His best plans for us will come to fruition, because they must depend on us cooperating with Him.
Given that God is fully aware of the "very thoughts and intents of the heart," and given that God is very persuasive of us (and sometimes coercive) by means of the Holy Spirit working within the believer, it does not follow that "God has basically ZERO assurance that his best plans for us will come to fruition."
Second, if EDF were the case, it would seem to imprison God in his own foreknowledge, powerless to effect a change in any future event or choice.
quote:
2. Indeed compatibilists have no problem with free will and foreknowledge, but that is not the issue. How does God's wisdom exist in answer to our prayers? I'm sorry, but respectfully, so far I have not discerned a cogent response from you. Claiming that He is simply ABLE is not very satisfying, especially in light of your admission that His plans can get thwarted and that He can appear unwise.
I hope I've answered this sufficiently above. If my answers do not appear cogent to you, I trust in time they will. I'm certainly not the most eloquent defender of Open View Theism.
quote:
3. That maybe so, but that just leaves me to think that OVTism's God is hard-pressed to accomplish anything in a believer's life since He doesn't know if he/she will be cooperating. He seems more impotent than able.
It seems to me that you presuppose a kind of all-or-nothing view of God's work in the believer's life. I don't see such an approach towards us as God's typical mode of operation, as revealed in Scripture. (OVTism has always affirmed that God in some cases overrides human freedom to accomplish His purposes, but again, this is not the usual way He operates, which is by moral persuasion).
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JEE
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 9/6/2004 8:25 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Mordecai
quote:
Originally posted by JEE
It is not clear (to me at least) how Calvinism or Arminianism present a view of God that reflects more wisdom than the Open View does.
Well Calvinism and Arminianism both affirm the classical sense of God's foreknowledge. Equipped with such, God then would seem to be in a better position to wisely grant or not grant a prayer request.
Follow-up question: Are you suggesting that in the classical sense of God's foreknowledge, the future can be other than God foreknows it will be? Your second sentence does not seem coherent with "the classical sense of God's foreknowledge," for in that paradigm, there are NO possibilities in the future that God knows, only certainties. That's why it's known as exhaustive definite foreknowledge. So granting a prayer request, in "the classical sense of God's foreknowledge" would require no wisdom on God's part at all (no deliberation on God's part after the prayer request), as the entire event--the need, the prayer, the answer, the outcome, etc.--would have been a completely foregone conclusion from all eternity.
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