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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 10/8/2004 10:20 AM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
Originally posted by Sahid
I'm not necessarily saying this is what happened in the case of Judas, but I think it is biblical to say that one's free choices can lead to a "settling" of the will. If I decide to smoke often enough, a time might come when I no longer can decide not to smoke. To assume that Judas never did anything of his own free will that brought about his story in the gospels is to do just that: assume.
BTW, John 6:70,71 does not say that Jesus chose "the 12 knowing full well one would betray him." It says that Jesus chose the twelve (in the past) and that one is a devil (in the present).
John 13:2
And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's [son], to betray him;
If Judas would have chose to betray Christ by his own "will", then why did Satan enter him? Did Satan entering into him affect his choice at all?
BTW, all that took place concerning Christ's death on the cross was according to what God designated beforehand to occur (Acts 4:27, 28).
His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. | | Back to Top | | |
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micah4
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2004
Total Posts : 8
| Posted 10/8/2004 2:16 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
John 13:2
And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's [son], to betray him;
If Judas would have chose to betray Christ by his own "will", then why did Satan enter him? Did Satan entering into him affect his choice at all?
I think Sahid already answered this question. Judas could have already made prior choices which led to his heart being open to the prompting of Satan. Perhaps if he had chosen otherwise in prior testings, his heart would not have been hardened and he would not have been susceptible to the prompting of Satan. In other words, his choice had already been made before Satan "entered into him".
quote:
BTW, all that took place concerning Christ's death on the cross was according to what God designated beforehand to occur (Acts 4:27, 28).
Acts 4:27-28 does not say that every last detail of Christ's death was designated beforehand as you seem to imply, it says "whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done." There is nothing in the text to conclude that "whatsoever was determined" was every last specific detail, or even that it was determined to be done specifically by the individuals of Herod and Pilate et. al-- it says only that these were the people that did in fact do what had been determined.
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 10/11/2004 10:49 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Now a question for you: Where does it state that Judas never gave a foothold to Satan?
Sahid-
This website is dedicated to open theism, which holds to man's free will. In the case of Judas, John 13:2 states ...
And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's [son], to betray him;
Satan put it there! This is not something assumed, it is a direct statement in scripture. When you say Judas may have given Satan a foothold, it can only be an assumption made, not based on scripture. My question addresses Judas' free will when looking at his decision to betray Jesus. The bible makes it quite clear that Satan had a huge part in influencing Judas.
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Tigress
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252
| Posted 10/11/2004 10:59 AM (GMT -6) | | Here's my question: Why was it even necessary for there to be a betrayer anyway? Couldn't the Sanhedrin have captured Jesus at any time? Or were Jesus and the disciples in constant hiding during the night so the Sanhedrin could never find them unless led to them by one of their own?
I know the Sandhedrin were afraid to capture Jesus during the day when the crowds were around, but it seems odd that they had to rely upon one of the disciples to lead them to Jesus at all. I mean the garden of Gethsemene was a public place, right? Plus, it seems like someone would have seen Jesus and the disciples go into the house that they were temporarily staying in during the Passover.
I just read about this during my Bible reading last night. Jesus said, "Woe to the one who betrays the Son of Man. It would have been better for him never to have been born," or something to that affect. Does this mean Judas would be eternally condemned for betraying Jesus, or was Jesus referring to the pangs of guilt that Judas would feel afterward, thus prompting him to commit suicide instead of asking Jesus to forgive him? I mean what Judas did was no worse than Peter denying Jesus three times, right? So, if Judas had asked for forgiveness he would have been saved like the rest of the disciples.
I was raised Lutheran and the official position of that denomination on suicide is that the one who commits it goes to hell because it shows a lack of faith in God in the last act of his life. So, does that mean Judas is in hell right now?
What about a Christian who struggles with depression and in a moment of agony kills himself before climbing out of that misery again? Will God still save him? Almost all Christians have dark periods when they are tempted to kill themselves for some reason or other. So, if they do manage to kill themselves before escaping that temptation, will God spare them because of Jesus' atoning sacrifice that they accepted before that moment of weakness?
Tigress 
"Name a shrub after me. Preferably one that's prickly and difficult to eradicate."
-Captain Jack Aubrey
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 10/12/2004 12:30 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Tigress
Here's my question: Why was it even necessary for there to be a betrayer anyway? Couldn't the Sanhedrin have captured Jesus at any time? Or were Jesus and the disciples in constant hiding during the night so the Sanhedrin could never find them unless led to them by one of their own?
I know the Sandhedrin were afraid to capture Jesus during the day when the crowds were around, but it seems odd that they had to rely upon one of the disciples to lead them to Jesus at all. I mean the garden of Gethsemene was a public place, right? Plus, it seems like someone would have seen Jesus and the disciples go into the house that they were temporarily staying in during the Passover.
I just read about this during my Bible reading last night. Jesus said, "Woe to the one who betrays the Son of Man. It would have been better for him never to have been born," or something to that affect. Does this mean Judas would be eternally condemned for betraying Jesus, or was Jesus referring to the pangs of guilt that Judas would feel afterward, thus prompting him to commit suicide instead of asking Jesus to forgive him? I mean what Judas did was no worse than Peter denying Jesus three times, right? So, if Judas had asked for forgiveness he would have been saved like the rest of the disciples.
I was raised Lutheran and the official position of that denomination on suicide is that the one who commits it goes to hell because it shows a lack of faith in God in the last act of his life. So, does that mean Judas is in hell right now?
What about a Christian who struggles with depression and in a moment of agony kills himself before climbing out of that misery again? Will God still save him? Almost all Christians have dark periods when they are tempted to kill themselves for some reason or other. So, if they do manage to kill themselves before escaping that temptation, will God spare them because of Jesus' atoning sacrifice that they accepted before that moment of weakness?
The answer "why" regarding Judas' betrayal is given in John 13.
“I do not speak of all of you. I know the ones I have chosen; but it is that the Scripture may be fulfilled, ‘HE WHO EATS MY BREAD HAS LIFTED UP HIS HEEL AGAINST ME.’ “From now on I am telling you before it comes to pass, so that when it does occur, you may believe that I am He.
Quoting Psalm 41
Even my close friend in whom I trusted,
Who ate my bread,
Has lifted up his heel against me.
quote:
“But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”
quote:
Jesus answered them, “Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?” Now He meant Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray Him.
Spen Lake
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 10/13/2004 8:23 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Laplace
A similar argument has been proposed regarding Pharoah in the book of Exodus. Could he help not letting the Israelites go if God Himself said He would harden his heart so it wouldn't happen.
I agree with the notion that God does not arbitrarily pick someone and say "Bam", you're going to be my bad guy (although He has the soverereign right to do so).
What I believe is more accurate is that God allows us to make choices in life and those choices will eventually reap a habit -> lifestyle -> destiny.
Perhaps if Judas had not made poor choices in heart and action, it would not have been Judas which betrayed him but some other person (He might not have been picked as a disciple).
In the case of Pharoah, Rom. 9:17-18 makes it clear that God roused up Pharoah and hardened his heart in order to display His power and publish His name throughout the earth. And this is where Paul brings up the arguement of why is God still blaming when one cannot withstand His intensions. Paul answers by saying "Who are you to be answering again to God" and gives the analogy of the potter's right over the clay (Rom. 9:19-24).
Judas' choose to betray Jesus was influenced by Satan, the bible is clear on this. Judas never intended for Jesus to be condemned (Matt. 27:3). Judas was like every other Israelite during the time of Jesus, expecting the Messiah to come and save Israel from under the hand of Roman rule. PERHAPS Judas figured Jesus' arrest would incite Him to fulfill this part of His commission. The when Judas saw that Jesus instead was condemned to death, committed suicide. We can only assume what lead Judas to do what he did, but we can be sure, from the bible's own testimony, that Satan influenced Judas' "choice" to betray Jesus.
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Sahid
Megistered Rember
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 2013
| Posted 10/14/2004 11:17 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Is it fair that these 2 individuals' choices were influenced in order to meet the purposes of God and ours are not? Is it fair to judge Judas and Pharoah the same as one of use being that Satan and God clearly influenced their choices?
In Letters from a Skeptic Doc talks about our choices becoming habits and then becoming more and more settled. The guy who drove into my friend was (completely?) under the influence of his disorder, yet he is still responsible. He is responsible in the same way that Pharaoh and possibly Judas are responsible. They made choices that were bad. These choices were continued to the point that they became habit and then more than habit. Pharaoh is responsible for settling himself into a deeper and deeper rut of evil. When he is judged for trying to prevent the exodus, he can't say, "The devil made me do it." Pharaoh, through his freely chosen pattern of evil, is the very one who brought about the hardening of his own heart.
Now, it's also true that God hardened his heart. The Bible says that God brings rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. Still most Christians don't reject scientific explainations for rain. Both causes (the scientific and the divine) are true. God has set up certain laws for his creation. Some are natural (gravity); some are spiritual (you reap what you sow). I think the Bible shows us that the things we love, end up ruling us. (Or as Tyler Dirdin says, "The things you own, end up owning you." Five points to the first person to name that movie.)
If Pharaoh chooses to love evil, he chooses to let evil rule his life. I believe this is God's design. God legislated the law and it's consequences. God judged the actions of Pharaoh. God executed that law in his life. That doesn't take away from the fact that they are Pharaoh's actions. I don't believe God caused Pharaoh to choose evil at a time before his choices where already set.
I also think it's interesting that even after Pharaoh is beaten down and essentially forced to let the Israelites go, he still is stuck in the evil rut he's made for himself. He still is a slave to his desire to rule over them.
If I were to vote for Kerry (only slightly more improbable than me voting for Bush), and then Kerry were to win and inact all the domestic policies that he's promised, my taxes would go up. Knowing me, I'd probably complain about this. Then some very wise person would hear me complaining and say, "You're the one who put him in charge. He's behaving just like you knew he would. You're responsible for this mess, because you're the one who made it, even though you can no longer control it."
Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre | | Back to Top | | |
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Sahid
Megistered Rember
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 2013
| Posted 10/15/2004 9:28 AM (GMT -6) | | You don't think killing a few hundred babies is evidence of a hard heart? If infanticide does not display a hard heart, what does? quote:
Scripture states in more then one spot that God hardened Pharoah's heart Himself. Never does it say Pharoah hardedned it himself, this can only be an assumtpion. I do not deny that man makes choices or that natural processes occur. The choices we make are influenced in some way or another.
It is equally an assumption to say that Pharoah did not play a major role in the hardening. You say I'm making assumptions (and you're right; I'm making the assumption that God is good), but to say that my assumptions are wrong is also an assumption (that God is amoral or immoral).
To say that the Bible describes events precisely is a BIG assumption. The bible never says that Pharoah was able to metabolize food, so he must not have eaten. The bible never says that Pharoah's second born child died, so that child must have lived forever. The bible never says that Pharoah played a role in the hardening of his heart, so he must not have. Arguments from silence are weak at best. Some evidence or logic might be nice.
quote:
This is the beauty of the OT view; it can keep God happy by ALLOWING Him his determined events, and yet it can keep man happy by telling him he can determine some events himself also. Almost sounds like politics .
I agree, it is beautiful. The OT view actually makes some sense. Of course, if we say that God arbitrarily hardens people and then punishes them for what they couldn't help, that would make sense too.....if God were evil.
Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre | | Back to Top | | |
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 10/15/2004 6:07 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
To say that the Bible describes events precisely is a BIG assumption. The bible never says that Pharoah was able to metabolize food, so he must not have eaten. The bible never says that Pharoah's second born child died, so that child must have lived forever. The bible never says that Pharoah played a role in the hardening of his heart, so he must not have. Arguments from silence are weak at best. Some evidence or logic might be nice.
That is why I am only speaking of what the bible says. The bible says God hardeded Pharoah's heart. I am not taking this from silence, it is a fact from the scriptures.
quote:
agree, it is beautiful. The OT view actually makes some sense. Of course, if we say that God arbitrarily hardens people and then punishes them for what they couldn't help, that would make sense too.....if God were evil.
Romans 9
17 For the scripture is saying to Pharaoh that "For this selfsame thing I rouse you up, so that I should be displaying in you My power, and so that My name should be published in the entire earth."
18 Consequently, then, to whom He will, He is merciful, yet whom He will, He is hardening.
19 You will be protesting to me, then, "Why, then, is He still blaming? for who has withstood His intention?"
20 O man! who are you, to be sure, who are answering again to God? That which is molded will not protest to the molder, "Why do you make me thus?"
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 10/16/2004 11:38 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sahid
quote:
That is why I am only speaking of what the bible says. The bible says God hardeded Pharoah's heart. I am not taking this from silence, it is a fact from the scriptures.
So you'd agree that it is possible that Pharoah, as well as God, is responsible for his hardening? I'm just saying that there is ample room in this story and Judas' story for open theism. I also think that from the overall biblical teaching we can know that God is just and faithful. To say that God unilaterally hardened (not to mention killed) Pharoah to acheive a greater good, is to have God operating under an ends justifying the means kind of morality. The bible teaches us what is good, and that ain't it.
No, I cannot agree with you. There is no room for Open theism in these accounts...
Exodus 9:34-10:1
Exd 9:34 And when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunders had ceased, he sinned yet more, and hardened his heart, he and his servants.
Exd 9:35 And the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, neither would he let the children of Israel go; as the LORD had spoken by Moses.
Exd 10:1 And the LORD said to Moses, Go in to Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants; that I might show these my signs before him:
In 9:34 it would appear that Pharoah and his servants hardened their hearts, but 10:1 makes it clear that the hardening came from God Himself!
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