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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 10/13/2004 2:22 AM (GMT -6) |   | This is from the Spiritual Warfare thread but probably is better here.
quote:
Originally posted by TGB
Leila-
About God ‘interfering’ with the free will of demons. Like how? Like to determine them to do good things? In the case, God doesn’t seem to be interfering much. Haven’t ever heard of a demon volunteering to do something good for somebody. But if God’s kicking their butts or expelling them from somebody’s life counts as interfering with their freewill (‘cause they wanna stay in that life), then yeah, God interferes. If opposing and struggling against their will is counted as interfering, yeah, God and we interfering with their wills. What else did you have in mind?
I think demons and Satan are solidified against God, yes.
There seem to be examples of God’s ‘making use’ of people or nations that are intent on doing evil (like Assyria and Babylon). God uses them as instruments of judgment against Israel, for example. God ‘steers’ them in the direction he wants, but only because they are heading in that general direction already. Whether one is solidified in a particular direction for good or evil matters because presumably God would not steer somebody in a particular direction if they were not already headed in the direction and still hold them accountable. That’s God “unconditionally” determining somebody. It’s hard to see how they can be held accountable in such a situation.
Tom
Tom,
Presumably the "destroyer" of Ex 12:23 and 1 Co 10:10 was consistent in its desire to "destroy" and was not what we would call a "good" angel. God planned for this supernatural destroyer to visit Egypt on a specific night and bring death. As the destroyer carries this destruction out he is accomplishing God's will. In Revelation we find something similar.quote:
I looked, and behold, an ashen horse; and he who sat on it had the name Death; and Hades was following with him. Authority was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by the wild beasts of the earth.
We know that Death and Hades are not God nor a part of God. This is crystal clear later in the book when they are thrown into the lake of fire. We also know that God gave them authority to over a fourth of the earth to kill. The Lamb is clearly in control in this passage and utterly sovereign over these evil beings. It is He who is found worthy to open the seals as He does and it is a "good" angel that calls to Death and Hades, "Come."
In as much as Death and Hades wish to kill, God allows them to accomplish this over a very specific and limited area, one fourth. They are accomplishing the will of God. They are not permitted to exercise their malevolent will against any beyond the limits that God had set for them. Unless God had "interfered" they would have willingly afflicted all. God had planned, God calls them fourth, God limits them, God allows them, and God holds them accountable and casts them into the lake of fire. "Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire."
A further question regarding your commment acknowledging God interfering in the free will of demons, "If opposing and struggling against their will is counted as interfering, yeah, God and we interfering with their wills. What else did you have in mind?" Why is this concept necessarily limited to God's actions or sovereignty over demons? Why couldn't your concept also appy to humans? Why can't God also oppose and struggle against the wills of humans?
Before being converted, I hated God and would have killed Him as "my fathers" did Jesus, why couldn't God oppose my hateful and evil will and give me faith? Why couldn't God have suddenly and sovereignly changed my desires such that I now desired to please Him and believe on His Son? I was presented with the gospel and God "enabled" me to believe as an act of kindness and love. My rejection of the gospel submitted and was conquered by God's will that I believe.
Spen Lake
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 10/16/2004 8:01 AM (GMT -6) | | Spen-
Sorry, didn't know you were talking to me. I saw the subject and, being obssessed as I am over on the logic stuff, just decided not to check it out. Thanks for point it out to me over there.
I'll get back to ya.
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 10/16/2004 8:25 AM (GMT -6) | | Hello Spen-
quote:
Spen: Why is this concept necessarily limited to God's actions or sovereignty over demons? Why couldn't your concept also appy to humans? Why can't God also oppose and struggle against the wills of humans?
God can and does oppose human evil.
quote:
Spen: Before being converted, I hated God and would have killed Him as "my fathers" did Jesus, why couldn't God oppose my hateful and evil will and give me faith? Why couldn't God have suddenly and sovereignly changed my desires such that I now desired to please Him and believe on His Son? I was presented with the gospel and God "enabled" me to believe as an act of kindness and love.
If you believe God unconditionally determines everything, then I really don’t understand what’s meant by God “opposing” anything. Before being converted you hated God. But isn’t it also true, given compatibilism, that God unconditionally determined your hatred of him? And why stop in your description of your conversion with “God ‘enabled’ me”? Why not say what you in fact believe, namely, that God “determined” me?
I honestly don’t know what sense to make of much of what you say given your commitment to the belief that God’s decrees are exhaustive and unconditional. Just being honest.
As for why I don’t think God unconditionally decrees who chooses to love him and who chooses not to love, I can’t make any sense out of “unconditionally determined love.” It’s absolutely unintelligible to me.
quote:
Spen: In both accounts God allows the actors to "choose" and act according to their desires.
Doesn’t he do more than merely ‘permit’? Does he not ‘determine’? Set me straight Spen, do you or do you not believe God unconditionally decreed all that happens? I’m trying to figure out the context of your comments. That’s all.
quote:
Spen: God, however, thwarts the intentions of Satan's will…
But God also unconditionally determines Satan’s intentions. Does this amount to God thwarting what God decrees? But then God decreed that God would thwart such things.
I don’t know what to say, Spen, because I really don’t understand what’s being proposed. Honestly. I'm not trying to nit-pick. I just don't understand. I don't understand what's being asked about Joseph, about God's judgment upon Israel, or about your own personal conversion IF you also believe that all of this without exception follows from God's unconditional decree.
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 10/16/2004 8:54 AM (GMT -6) | |
quote:
Tom: I don’t know what to say, Spen, because I really don’t understand what’s being proposed. Honestly. I'm not trying to nit-pick. I just don't understand. I don't understand what's being asked about Joseph, about God's judgment upon Israel, or about your own personal conversion IF you also believe that all of this without exception follows from God's unconditional decree.
Tom,
It was kind of you to reply. Thank you. Perhaps an explanation to what I believe involves what you call attention to in the words, "enable" and "determine." If I understand correctly, you consider that if I hold that God exactly knows/knew the entire future and "enabled" some to believe that this means that He also "determined" that those who don't or will not believe to perish - if I follow logic? I think that I separate these two. The "deterministic" aspect I consider "hidden in God" or providence. The revealed aspect of the gospel and the "enabling" are what God has shown us and we are converted in having faith in this revealed gospel.
I think that the difference between "allowing" Satan's actions and "determining" his sinful acts is parallel to the above. The allowing is revealed and is to be correctly seen only in the context of an almighty loving God that offers salvation to the entire world through the death of His son. We experience internal/external evils but we trust that God's salvation is both true and sufficient in spite of our experiences. While there is a logical inference that God then "determines" Satan's sinful actions - this I cannot accept and place this "mystery" in the hidden transcendance that I cannot understand.
Perhaps another way to say it is that I experience and seem to live in a world that is "non-determined" by the revealed God as shown to us through His death for us. I experience, act with, and am held accountable for my choices that I really make on my own. I believe however, that God knows all that will happen from eternity and He has determined that His will is to be done through my choices and that this is "hidden" except that we have His revealed promises including, "All things work together for good to those who loave the Lord and are called according to His purpose." Even this promise is qualified, however, and we still trust in it through faith. The "disconnect" in how His will interacts with or "determines" evil, this I don't understand and don't believe that it is fully revealed except that He has made it clear that He is not the author of evil and He is still sovereign over it.
Spen Lake
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 10/16/2004 10:41 AM (GMT -6) | | Spen: Perhaps another way to say it is that I experience and seem to live in a world that is "non-determined" by the revealed God as shown to us through His death for us. I experience, act with, and am held accountable for my choices that I really make on my own.
Tom: I really appreciate your saying this.
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 10/16/2004 12:46 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Spen: Perhaps another way to say it is that I experience and seem to live in a world that is "non-determined" by the revealed God as shown to us through His death for us. I experience, act with, and am held accountable for my choices that I really make on my own.
Tom: I really appreciate your saying this.
Spen: Why?
Because you’re the first determinist I’ve heard admit that life has to be lived as if determinism wasn’t true. That’s quite a confession.
quote:
Spen: It seems fundamental to me that, whatever God keeps hidden, we live out in a way that "seems" non-determined.
I wish I could divide my attention up better than I’m able so I could jump into this. I’m just too invested in the wacky logic stuff right now. I’d love to come back to this Spen, because I believe there is in your admission that ‘whatever God keeps hidden we still can only make sense of life by living it as if it was not determined’. Boy this is fodder for great discussion.
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
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