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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 8/24/2004 4:30 PM (GMT -6) |   | Hi Sahid,
quote:
Are Christians free in such a way that their actions are not determined anymore?
I believe that real freedom exists within God's will. Once a believe chooses sin, they run in the ditch, and have to be pulled out, before they can travel, and have freedom again. I also think what is not forbidden is infinite, and what is forbidden is finite, like in the garden, with the fence around the forbidden tree…
Genesis 2:16 And the Lord God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden…"
The command is: "You are free!"
quote:
Example: Fred is a free Christian. Derrick is a determined non-Christian. Fred and Derrick eat lunch together. Fred at some point has the opportunity to choose freely whether to ask Derrick to pass the salt or to ask Derrick about Jesus. If Fred is really free, either choice is possible. Regardless of how Derrick ends up responding to either question, neither response is determined, because the initial question is not determined. If the response is determined, the question must be determined, and then Fred really isn't free, but instead God knows exactly what Fred will say.
That's a good question! I believe God knows our free choices, just as he knows his own free choices, and plans accordingly, and believers may exercise their freedom within God's will, so he remains in control.
Derrick's response will not be free, either way, though, I would say, just as the salt shaker will not be free if Fred (freely) picks it up, or (freely) leaves it on the table. Derrick's response will be different! Just like the salt shaker. But I don't think that means he chooses freely…
Blessings,
Lee
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"Even now we seem to have dim glimpses into regions
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Sahid
Megistered Rember
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 2013
| Posted 8/25/2004 2:10 AM (GMT -6) | | What then is the difference between the Christian's freedom and the non-Christian's captivity? Would you say that the Christian is free from his or her point of view, having many possibilities open, but from God's point of view all choices are determined? Maybe the confusion is the word 'free'. I know there are tons of different meanings, and I think we both agree that we are free from sin and free from death, but here I'm talking about free to choose between options.
Let's say you've got a rat in a maze, and you know, through research or something, that the rat is incapable of choosing any path but one. Any freedom the rat perceives itself as having is an illusion, right? To someone who knows the situation and is not clouded by a limited perspective, the rat is not free, only possibly free in its mind. We could say the rat is free from those impossible choices, but not free in taking the determined path. In fact the rat is a prisoner to that path.
Now I know that we are released from bondage to sin and made slaves to Christ, so we are not free from our state of bondage, but it seems to me that we must be free in deciding to whom we are in bondage. If we don't have that freedom, how are we any more than pawns in a game between Good and Evil? It doesn't seem like God really would love us in that scenario any more than some smooth talker in one of those reality shows who has to get people on his side to win.
Thanks for discussing this stuff with me.
Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre | | Back to Top | | |
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 8/25/2004 4:18 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi everyone,
I appreciate the discussion, too, I'm still not completely decided about this area…
quote:
Would you say that the Christian is free from his or her point of view, having many possibilities open, but from God's point of view all choices are determined?
Known, but not determined, I would say. Like God knows his own free choices!
quote:
Let's say you've got a rat in a maze, and you know, through research or something, that the rat is incapable of choosing any path but one. Any freedom the rat perceives itself as having is an illusion, right?
That I would say, is different, a caused decision is not a free one, I agree, whether it's a rational or an irrational cause. But I don't think foreknowledge causes a decision! If that were the case, then does knowing a choice pretty certainly (John will order spaghetti if we go to Friskies) cause it some, too? Are the only really free choices 50-50 chances? Then there aren't any real free choices, I think, for every choice leans a bit some way, even if just a little bit…
quote:
Now I know that we are released from bondage to sin and made slaves to Christ, so we are not free from our state of bondage, but it seems to me that we must be free in deciding to whom we are in bondage. If we don't have that freedom, how are we any more than pawns in a game between Good and Evil?
If we can choose after we are set free, then we aren't pawns any more. Before then, we are, though!
Galatians 4:8 Formerly, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those who by nature are not gods.
quote:
It doesn't seem like God really would love us in that scenario any more than some smooth talker in one of those reality shows who has to get people on his side to win.
But we all have a concept of love that is destined! "A match made in heaven," "They were meant for each other," or even Cupid shooting his arrows…
Song of Solomon 2:7 Daughters of Jerusalem, I charge you by the gazelles and by the does of the field: Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires.
Blessings,
Lee
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"Even now we seem to have dim glimpses into regions
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Sahid
Megistered Rember
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 2013
| Posted 8/25/2004 10:49 PM (GMT -6) | | First of all... quote:
But we all have a concept of love that is destined! "A match made in heaven," "They were meant for each other," or even Cupid shooting his arrows…
not me. I had a big debate with some friends a couple of years ago, before I crossed over to the Open Theist dark side, about how much God plans. Does He plan what cereal He wants you to eat in the morning? Your clothes? Your hobbies? Your friends? Your spouse? I'll grant that God may involve Himself in all these decisions in special circumstances, but is the typical choice of cereal a matter of right and wrong? Clothes? Hobbies? Friends? Spouse? I tend to think there may be more than one right choice to all of these. But now I'm off the subject.
You talked about the odds of certain choices. In our everyday life, there are odds. But God changes things. If God knows a particular choice will be made, then the odds are 1:0. There is no chance of God being wrong. He's God. But the way I see it, that applies to humans too. If we truly know something will happen, the odds are 1:0. Assuming that John is starving and all that Friskies serves is spaghetti, the odds still aren't 1:0. Something could happen. Saying we know he'll get the spaghetti is ok, because everyone knows what you mean, but if we are being nit-picky, the statement is not accurate. We don't know. There are two kinds of knowing here: Certain knowing (rare if not non-existent for human knowledge of future events) and practical knowing. I know practically that the traffic light will turn red after it turns yellow, but I am not certain that the power won't go out. So I guess when I've talked about knowing, I should have been talking about certainty.
That said, when you add God always getting what He wants and God being the creator of the heavens and the earth, I have a hard time getting how God's being certain of something is not equivalent to his forcing or causing that thing to happen. Now if He's certain of the odds, that's another story. Here I'm talking about Him being certain of the outcome. If the outcome is certain, the odds are meaningless. quote:
If we can choose after we are set free, then we aren't pawns any more. Before then, we are, though!
Free to do what? Are we talking about morally insignificant freedom like the freedom to choose which side of the toast to butter? Or is it the freedom to choose between good and bad? If all bad is caused by God's decree, then isn't all good caused by the absence of God's decree?
In conclusion I would like to note that RC cola is better than Pepsi or Coke. Or maybe I just pull for the underdog. No, I actually like it better.
Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre | | Back to Top | | |
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 8/26/2004 6:10 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi Sahid,
quote:
Lee: But we all have a concept of love that is destined! "A match made in heaven," "They were meant for each other," or even Cupid shooting his arrows…
Sahid: … not me. I had a big debate with some friends a couple of years ago, before I crossed over to the Open Theist dark side, about how much God plans. Does He plan what cereal He wants you to eat in the morning?
No, but the choice to love can be "not of ourselves." That's what the lady said to wait on, in fact, in Solomon's Song:
Song of Solomon 3:5 Daughters of Jerusalem, I charge you by the gazelles and by the does of the field: Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires.
Three times, she says this!
quote:
Sahid: You talked about the odds of certain choices. In our everyday life, there are odds. But God changes things. If God knows a particular choice will be made, then the odds are 1:0.
I agree! But I don't think the OV says God can always know choices. Thus we (and God) have to evaluate probabilities…
quote:
That said … I have a hard time getting how God's being certain of something is not equivalent to his forcing or causing that thing to happen. Now if He's certain of the odds, that's another story. Here I'm talking about Him being certain of the outcome. If the outcome is certain, the odds are meaningless.
Yes, I agree that God is not estimating. But if we understand why knowing a future choice causes it, we should be able to explain, too, how a choice can be really free even if it's not a 50-50 chance, even if it's not completely unpredictable.
quote:
Lee: If we can choose after we are set free, then we aren't pawns any more. Before then, we are, though!
Sahid: Free to do what? Are we talking about morally insignificant freedom like the freedom to choose which side of the toast to butter? Or is it the freedom to choose between good and bad? If all bad is caused by God's decree, then isn't all good caused by the absence of God's decree?
Free to rule! For instance…
Luke 19:19 "His master answered, 'You take charge of five cities.'
And I believe God's children can use their freedom to choose sin:
Galatians 5:13 You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature…
But then they're not free anymore, until they repent…
But no, I don't believe God makes all decisions, just because he is in control of the bad ones:
Revelation 3:21 To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne…
quote:
In conclusion I would like to note that RC cola is better than Pepsi or Coke. Or maybe I just pull for the underdog. No, I actually like it better.
I had a pastor once who thought an RC and a moon pie was horse heaven. Don’t want to say hog heaven, him being a pastor and all…
Blessings,
Lee
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"Even now we seem to have dim glimpses into regions
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Sahid
Megistered Rember
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 2013
| Posted 8/27/2004 12:45 PM (GMT -6) | | I think the crucial choice is the one to follow Christ. A lot (maybe everything?) can be attributed to being a slave to sin or a slave to Christ, but who's slave are we when, in the midst of our sin, Jesus says, "Follow me"? Are we slaves to sin? Then no one will be saved. Are we slaves to Christ? Then why don't all follow Him? Lee, I know you're saying, "They all will follow Him." But for the time being He calls, and they don't answer. Ex: The rich, young ruler. So, some are slaves to sin and some to Christ? But I thought the Bible tells us that we're all in the same boat before salvation. "All have sinned and fall sort." The only way (for me at least) to make since of that one crucial choice is to say that it's not forced on us but, at least to some degree, freely choosen.
Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre | | Back to Top | | |
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JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 8/27/2004 12:56 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
So, some are slaves to sin and some to Christ? But I thought the Bible tells us that we're all in the same boat before salvation. "All have sinned and fall sort."
Yes, all have sinned, and thus all become enslaved to sin (see Romans 1, in addition to Ezek. 18) As Jesus said, "he that commits sin is the slave of sin...(but)...if the Son therefore has made you free, you shall be free indeed." Romans 6 plainly reveals that the Christian has been "set free from sin." This is an obvious allusion to freedom from our former enslavement.
I submit that the resolution to this apparent dilemma you bring up RE: "How can we choose Christ, then?" is the prevenient grace of God, including deliverance from sin's bondage by means of Christ's atoning death, which Paul says was "a ransom (redemption price) for all."
1 Corinthians 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
1 Peter 1:18 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, 19but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot.
In Christ's call to us, "Follow Me," his grace is revealed to us, and we then have the gracious opportunity to listen and obey, or to reject his loving, redeeming grace. The only way out of sin's bondage is the grace of God in Christ.
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Sahid
Megistered Rember
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 2013
| Posted 8/27/2004 11:45 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
I submit that the resolution to this apparent dilemma you bring up RE: "How can we choose Christ, then?" is the prevenient grace of God, including deliverance from sin's bondage by means of Christ's atoning death, which Paul says was "a ransom (redemption price) for all."
quote:
we then have the gracious opportunity to listen and obey, or to reject his loving, redeeming grace.
It sounds like in this state of prevenient grace, we are free from bondage both to sin and to Christ. Am I right? I mean, if prevenient grace implies bondage to Christ, we've just begged the question. Once again, we aren't making a free choice. (I know I'm going with a very strong kind of "bondage" here, but if we ascribe our choices to our state of bondage, then I think that's necessary.)
Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre | | Back to Top | | |
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