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Sisters of Cain
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Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 9/20/2004 11:38 AM (GMT -6) |   | A Liar's Dilemma
some have the proposition p(all people are totally depraved)
If it is the case that p is true, then it is not the case that p is true. (because they are totally depraved and are thus, lying)
If it is the case that p is false, then it is the case that p is false. (no total depravity)
That a self-professed, totally depraved person can make an absolute claim like this is a liar's paradox.
Their Circular Reasoning
They "prove" their proposition p by appealing to scripture.
Yet scripture was written by men, so if it is the case that p is true, scripture is false about p being true.
I.E. the lies of men support the case that all men are liars.
That's circular reasoning.
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Sisters of Cain
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Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 9/20/2004 12:01 PM (GMT -6) | | Of course, they might say that some have moved from the "totally depraved" category into another category, but the problem remains the same. How can they know they have moved from one category to the other when we take their p to be true?
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Lee Merrill
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| Posted 9/21/2004 3:18 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi SOC,
quote:
Of course, they might say that some have moved from the "totally depraved" category into another category...
Yes, that is what I would say in reply here...
quote:
... but the problem remains the same. How can they know they have moved from one category to the other when we take their p to be true?
Because God said it, too!
Romans 3:10-12 As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one."
Paul is quoting here, and he's quoting God speaking...
Blessings,
Lee
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Sisters of Cain
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Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 9/22/2004 2:07 AM (GMT -6) | | Men wrote the bible and you have the premise that all men are liars.
Funny thing, Lee, I'm examining the basis of why we believe men when they say what they've written is inspired by God, so just quoting what they've written isn't helpful. If you do have something that is relevant to this thread, please post it, but otherwise, just posting scripture verses isn't pertinent to this discussion.
thanks
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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 9/22/2004 9:02 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sisters of Cain
Men wrote the bible and you have the premise that all men are liars.
Funny thing, Lee, I'm examining the basis of why we believe men when they say what they've written is inspired by God, so just quoting what they've written isn't helpful. If you do have something that is relevant to this thread, please post it, but otherwise, just posting scripture verses isn't pertinent to this discussion.
thanks
Hmmm... are donkey quotes permitted on his thread?
"What have I done to you to make you beat me these three times?"
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Sisters of Cain
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Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 9/22/2004 9:08 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
Hmmm... are donkey quotes permitted on his thread?
"What have I done to you to make you beat me these three times?"
So everyone came back with glowing reports from the conference?
courtnspark, we're counting on you for the dirt. 
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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 9/22/2004 9:37 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sisters of Cain
quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
Hmmm... are donkey quotes permitted on his thread?
"What have I done to you to make you beat me these three times?"
So everyone came back with glowing reports from the conference?
courtnspark, we're counting on you for the dirt.
Dr. Sanders pointed out how he once struggled to understand Calvinism. He banged his head on the wall trying to understand their logic. A professor explained to him a second form of freewill. It was easier once he understood that libertarian freewill isn’t what a Calvinist refers to when they speak of their freedom to choose. It's more like they are freely compatible to choose the only option God gives them. His analogy was that God gives you only one channel to watch on TV, but you freely choose to watch that channel.
Sorry that is all the irrelevant stuff I have. I think the conference was trying to stay focused on a more logical view of God. 
P.S. Did you hear about the belly dancer?
So there you have it, not straight from the horses donkey’s mouth.
Sorry, go ahead and carry on with your regular scheduled program.
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Alan Rhoda
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Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 680
| Posted 9/22/2004 12:34 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sisters of Cain
A Liar's Dilemma
some have the proposition p(all people are totally depraved)
If it is the case that p is true, then it is not the case that p is true. (because they are totally depraved and are thus, lying)
If it is the case that p is false, then it is the case that p is false. (no total depravity)
That a self-professed, totally depraved person can make an absolute claim like this is a liar's paradox.
Hey SoC,
The dilemma you propose only follows if "total depravity" entails "always lying". The Calvinists will have to speak for themselves but, as far as I know, that's not what people who hold to total depravity claim. As I understand it, "total depravity" is supposed to mean (1) that every aspect of our being is negatively affected by sin such that (2) we are unable to do anything that is truly good in the way that God's perfect standards require. I don't think it means that every is always doing as much evil as they possibly can, or telling as many lies as they possibly can. And I don't think that Calvinists, charitably interpreted, make such a claim. In short, you need to support your assumption that "total depravity" entails "always lying", otherwise the Calvinist can simply avoid your dilemma by denying that assumption.
Regards,
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 9/22/2004 5:12 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Alan Rhoda
Hey SoC,
The dilemma you propose only follows if "total depravity" entails "always lying". The Calvinists will have to speak for themselves but, as far as I know, that's not what people who hold to total depravity claim. As I understand it, "total depravity" is supposed to mean (1) that every aspect of our being is negatively affected by sin such that (2) we are unable to do anything that is truly good in the way that God's perfect standards require. I don't think it means that every is always doing as much evil as they possibly can, or telling as many lies as they possibly can. And I don't think that Calvinists, charitably interpreted, make such a claim. In short, you need to support your assumption that "total depravity" entails "always lying", otherwise the Calvinist can simply avoid your dilemma by denying that assumption.
I'm taking "total depravity" to mean unable to understand any spiritual truth or speak truth of anything spiritual, so it's a narrower definition than even what you proposed.
And scripture is about presenting spiritual truth.
So their premise is that all men are spiritually dead and cannot understand or present any spiritual truth. To back this premise up, they quote the spiritual truth men presented in the bible.
Thanks for your input.
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Sisters of Cain
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Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 9/22/2004 5:36 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Lee:
But James says the demons acknowledge at least one real spiritual truth:
James 2:19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that-- and shudder.
He commends that view! It's quite true, even if a (certainly totally depraved) demon believes it. I do hold (as Alan said) that a person being totally depraved does not mean he cannot possibly say anything true about God.
If unregenerate people can know some truth about God, then the depravity is not TOTAL.
That's my whole point. There is common ground between us and God by which we can understand some spiritual truth (Romans 1), and that "Total Depravity" is not biblical and thus, not true.
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JEE
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 9/22/2004 6:22 PM (GMT -6) | | Then, there's the New School Divinity definition of total moral depravity, by which is meant that subsequent to the age of accountability and prior to regeneration, the moral actions of people proceed from only a selfish motive, as opposed to a benevolent one. That is, their actions, even their apparent good works, are sinful, because they have a sinful (self-serving) intention in all that they do.
Charles Finney, one of the primary promoters of this view of total depravity, makes it clear that it is "entered into voluntarily", and not an innate (or constitutional) sinfulness. Total depravity does not mean everyone is necessarily as bad as he can be, nor that everyone is unable to grasp basic information about God. All it means is that they are devoted to themselves, not to unselfish goodwill (benevolence/agape love).
Deut. 31:29 For I know that after my death ye will utterly corrupt yourselves, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days; because ye will do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger through the work of your hands.
Exodus 32:7 - And the LORD said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves:
Deuteronomy 9:12 - And the LORD said unto me, Arise, get thee down quickly from hence; for thy people which thou hast brought forth out of Egypt have corrupted themselves; they are quickly turned aside out of the way which I commanded them; they have made them a molten image.
Deuteronomy 32:5 - They have corrupted themselves, their spot is not the spot of his children: they are a perverse and crooked generation. (Depravity comes from the Latin for "crooked")
Judges 2:19 - And it came to pass, when the judge was dead, that they returned, and corrupted themselves more than their fathers, in following other gods to serve them, and to bow down unto them; they ceased not from their own doings, nor from their stubborn way.
Eccl. 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.
Prov. 2:9 Then you will understand righteousness and justice and equity, every good path; 10 for wisdom will come into your heart, and knowledge will be pleasant to your soul; 11 discretion will watch over you; understanding will guard you; 12 delivering you from the way of evil, from men of perverted speech, 13 who forsake the paths of uprightness to walk in the ways of darkness, 14 who rejoice in doing evil and delight in the perverseness of evil; 15 men whose paths are crooked, and who are devious in their ways.
Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. 26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are unseemly; 29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 9/23/2004 4:44 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi SoC,
quote:
If unregenerate people can know some truth about God, then the depravity is not TOTAL.
But I can know a true fact about God, and yet sin, all the time. Knowing a fact is not a virtue, any more than knowing the multiplication tables is.
quote:
Lock: How does everyone else define "totally depraved human"?
I agree with Jee and Lock, that all unbelievers do is selfish, and we know that "love comes from God" (1 Jn. 4:7), and unbelievers do not have God's love:
1 John 3:10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.
So that's total depravity! Selfish all the time, it takes a lot of getting over to get over this, too…
Blessings,
Lee
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Newcomb
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 116
| Posted 10/3/2004 6:49 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
Sisters-
How does everyone else define "totally depraved human"?
This is the problem here. I am totally OV, severely resist Calvinism so don't think I am defending that, however, Alan was right, ‘Sisters’ equivocated what the Calvinists mean by "Total Depravity" and that invalidated the argument. If Calvinists claimed that no one could tell the truth, that is a self destructive argument.
This becomes a straw man because it is not what they mean.
On the other hand, this is kind of how they apply it whenever they want to tell you that you must be wrong. Case in point: I was arguing what I later learned to be OV to a typical Baptist pastor (I’m Baptist still, by “typical” I mean a kind of soft 3 point Calvinistic doctrine) who came back with “you are looking at it through faulty human understanding.” I retorted, “So are you, what makes your reasoning correct?”
He was aghast.
Of course, if I could not understand the truth because I was human, how could he?
Trouble is Jesus spoke highly of people such as the Centurion who came to ask healing for his servant. People are created in the image of God, there is something worth redeeming, worth dieing for, or God would have chosen another path.
Also, verses above indicate people corrupted themselves. If they were already totally corrupted, how could this be true? One states the people corrupted themselves more that their parents indicating various levels of corruption are possible. Again, if all people are completely depraved how can another be more that completely depraved?
Use my grandfather as an example. He lived a long useful life and raised a family, was a very nice person and even attended church as his parents told him. He involved himself in little that anyone would call sin. He was an adjutant in the Army, a banker and a manager of a local company. He never cheated on his wife. He died without confessing Jesus. Would you use those terms on him? Those who do isolate themselves from real people and sit in their whited towers like so many Pharisees in Jesus’ day. He may be lost, he may not have reached the pinnacle required for entry to heaven (obviously you can’t do that yourself) but to call him “totally depraved” is a grave injustice.
Verses used to support this type of view are poorly applied.
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Lee Merrill
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 10/3/2004 8:21 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi Newcomb,
So as not to cast any aspersions on your grandfather, let's talk about Mahatma Ghandi, instead. Not that I want to cast any aspersions on Ghandi either, but was he an example of total depravity?
I think an appropriate question here is this: "Is he an example of total depravity?" Without Christ indwelling him, without any of God's goodness reaching him now, how much good can he be doing?
I think that points out the problem, that "every good gift comes from above," and Ghandi's gifts, noble as they were, were from God, and until Ghandi has a way to continuously receive good gifts from God, the well will run dry, and all that was good in him, or in anyone, will wither like a flower in a desert...
Blessings,
Lee
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