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[This realization] mercifully mitigates the easily paralyzing sense of responsibility [i.e., in the sense of contrary choice] and prevents us from taking ourselves and other people all too seriously;

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it is conducive to a view of life which, in particular, gives humor its due

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Why is it so difficult to abandon the deeply problematic concept of free will and ultimate moral responsibility? The answer is suggested in Samuel Johnson’s epigram: “All theory is against free will; all experience is for it.” The decisive theoretical reasons for rejecting free will and moral responsibility fail to persuade, because we feel free. We feel responsible. True enough, but in almost every other field we allow logic and science (i.e. theory) to trump experience—why not here? One reason is that the ethical implications of denying free will and moral responsibility seem terrifying. We worry that embracing these ideals would lead to a world where “everything is permitted,” and no one is held accountable for anything.

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True enough, but in almost every other field we allow logic and science (i.e. theory) to trump experience—why not here? One reason is that the ethical implications of denying free will and moral responsibility seem terrifying. We worry that embracing these ideals would lead to a world where “everything is permitted,” and no one is held accountable for anything.

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Bardaisan sets out to demonstrate that human beings, notwithstanding their being in many respects at the mercy of forces over which they have no control, nevertheless have a free will and can choose between right and wrong actions. "Man is not just a zither" to be played upon by others, nor "a ship which another guides." Bardaisan does not contribute anything substantial to the perennial argument about freedom and necessity, but to the modern reader the astrological detail in which he writes is likely to be engaging.

Fate does not force races to do as they do. It is a matter of choice, or of choice congealed into habit and custom. By the same power of free will "the new people of us Christians," who may be found in every place and in all climates, do not follow the local customs that are inconsistent with Christian teaching. Astral Fate does not force them to do things that are unclean for them. "

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"If any man doth ascribe of salvation, even the very least, to the free will of man, he knoweth nothing of grace, and he hath not learnt Jesus Christ aright."

-Martin Luther


"if the final decision for the salvation of fallen sinners were left in the hands of fallen sinners, we would despair all hope that anyone would be saved"

- R.C. Sproul

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It appears the gnostics, in their attempt to clear God of any use of evil, believe, along with some OT'ers, that man has a "free" will.

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Let us begin with the Determinists. They are right in asserting the omnipresence of Cause and Effect. They are right in asserting that everything that happens is a necessary outcome of a preceding state of things. This is not merely the discovery and conclusion of the whole body of modern science. It is an inescapable necessity of thought itself. As Henri Poincare put it: "Science is determinist; it is so a priori; it postulates determinism, because without this postulate science could not exist." (1)

By the same reasoning, the Libertarian concept of a person or "self" or an individual "will" that stands outside the chain of causation, uninfluenced by the previous state of affairs, is wholly untenable.

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Whether or not salvation is independent has nothing to do with whether humans actually HAVE a capacity for self-determination. And how does God punishing people do them good?

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God's righteousness is revealed through His law. Each person judged before the white throne will recieve a full realization of God's righteousness in steep contrast to their own (i.e. judged according to their acts). The realization of God's righteousness is a necessary step towards reconciliation. God's judgment is corrective, in that it corrects all that man has done wrong. It is not punitive, nor is it for God's pleasure. God is love; this is an absolute. All that God does eventually culminates with His love.

When it comes to believers during this era Paul tells us in Romans 3:21, 22 "YET NOW, apart from law, a righteousness of God is manifest (being attested by the law and prophets), YET a righteousness of God through Jesus Christ' faith, FOR ALL, and on all who are believing..."

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When You say God is not the ULTIMATE author of evil, do you mean God created Satan not knowing he would sin?

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Let us begin with the Determinists. They are right in asserting the omnipresence of Cause and Effect. They are right in asserting that everything that happens is a necessary outcome of a preceding state of things. This is not merely the discovery and conclusion of the whole body of modern science. It is an inescapable necessity of thought itself. As Henri Poincare put it: "Science is determinist; it is so a priori; it postulates determinism, because without this postulate science could not exist." (1)

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1) to separate, put asunder, to pick out, select, choose

2) to approve, esteem, to prefer

3) to be of opinion, deem, think, to be of opinion

4) to determine, resolve, decree

5) to judge

a) to pronounce an opinion concerning right and wrong

1) to be judged, i.e. summoned to trial that one's case may be examined and judgment passed upon it

b) to pronounce judgment, to subject to censure

1) of those who act the part of judges or arbiters in matters of common life, or pass judgment on the deeds and words of others

6) to rule, govern

a) to preside over with the power of giving judicial decisions, because it was the prerogative of kings and rulers to pass judgment

7) to contend together, of warriors and combatants

a) to dispute

b) in a forensic sense

1) to go to law, have suit at law

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By the same reasoning, the Libertarian concept of a person or "self" or an individual "will" that stands outside the chain of causation, uninfluenced by the previous state of affairs, is wholly untenable.

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The decisive theoretical reasons for rejecting free will and moral responsibility fail to persuade, because we feel free. We feel responsible. True enough, but in almost every other field we allow logic and science (i.e. theory) to trump experience—why not here?

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Lock: Tom-

This was posted a few earlier posts, but maybe you missed it concerning "free" will in which jeff was referring to as incoherent: “By the same reasoning, the Libertarian concept of a person or "self" or an individual "will" that stands outside the chain of causation, uninfluenced by the previous state of affairs, is wholly untenable.”

How exactly can I be making this up as I go?

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I don’t even understand this, Lock. The “decisive" theoretical reasons fail to persuade? If they’re “decisive” then they’re just that, decisive. They can’t “fail to persuade.” If they fail to persuade then they are by definition NOT decisive.

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