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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 10/28/2004 5:51 AM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
Originally posted by lock
Quote:
THERE is an aspect of the theological doctrine of human responsibility, like that of free will, which is a direct contradiction of the deity of God. It denies the great gulf between the Creator and the creature, the Potter and the clay, the mighty Molder and His handiwork. It assumes an independence of God which elevates man while, at the same time, it degrades his Maker.
In my view, the “great gulf” between Creator and creature is exactly what the Potter is trying to remove by molding us into His image. Let’s remember we were created with the imago Dai. Our freedom glorifies God when we choose to cooperate and draw close to Him. The “great gulf” is due to the choices of Adam and Eve that resulted in the fall. Adam and Eve’s total lack of “accountability” in the garden (blaming the serpent and each other) contributed to their exile. It was not only the violation of the prohibition they were a fault with, but also the shame and guilt of their sin not leading them to repentance. God offers forgiveness, but it is our choice to live up to our end of the mutual pact. Does God hold humans accountable for their choices/deeds? Hmm...  hell rings a bell!
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JEE
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 10/28/2004 10:24 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
John-
Romans 7:
15 For what I am effecting I know not, for not what I will, this I am putting into practice, but what I am hating, this I am doing.
16 Now if what I am not willing, this I am doing, I am conceding that the law is ideal.
Will=thelo
Definition (Strong's)
to will, have in mind, intend
to be resolved or determined, to purpose
to desire, to wish
to love
to like to do a thing, be fond of doing
to take delight in, have pleasure
King James Word Usage - Total: 210
will/would 159, will/would have 16, desire 13, desirous 3, list 3, to will 2, miscellaneous 4
Thelo is used 7 times in Roman's 7 and even in the KJV it is never rendered wished or desired but will or would.
And, as the Strong's definition (which you cite) clearly shows, the term can be translated "wish," which would in fact fit the context of Romans 7 quite well.
John
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lock
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Total Posts : 701
| Posted 10/28/2004 10:58 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
And, as the Strong's definition (which you cite) clearly shows, the term can be translated "wish," which would in fact fit the context of Romans 7 quite well.
John-
Not according to the KJV, NLT, Webster's, Young's, Darby's , nor the ASV. You are confusing translation with interpretation.
quote:
Here's what contradicts this defective statement:
Deuteronomy 24:16, The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers; every man shall be put to death for his own sin.
"own sin" shows where the responsibility for the creation of the sin lies, with the one who commits the sin.
Swan-
The references you gave from the Old Testament show how God holds those accountable according to the amount of light given. These concern Israel, who was given God's law (the light). God will hold them accountable for this (Romans 2:13, "Whoever sinned in law, through law will be judged"). You are confusing "responsibility" and accountability. They are not the same. Man was created with the potential of sinning. This was not man's fault for he had no choice in the matter.
quote:
Jesus was born into the "family of Adam". He was tempted on all points, just as we are. Same abilities as us, same opportunities as us.
Yes, Jesus was the only perfect man. He was in constant unity with God's spirit. It was not until He hung on the cross, bearing the sins of mankind does He feel what is to be alienated from God's spirit and He cried, "My God, My God! Why have you forsaken Me?".
quote:
Regarding that stuff you quoted, lock, the author doesn't understand what sovereignty means.
When "sovereignty" is used to describe God's rule it's because sovereigns rule over people WITHOUT controlling every aspect of their lives. Queen Victoria was sovereign over England and it's empire for over sixty years yet didn't meticulously control every aspect of each subject's life. That's why the word "sovereignty" was picked to describe God's rule as well.
Your example does not work because Queen Victoria did not create the subjects of the United Kingdom in her own image, nor did she give her only son to die for their sins, nor does she will to be ALL IN ALL concerning the subjects of her kingdom.
quote:
In my view, the “great gulf” between Creator and creature is exactly what the Potter is trying to remove by molding us into His image. Let’s remember we were created with the imago Dai. Our freedom glorifies God when we choose cooperate and draw close to Him.
Spark-
I agree with what you posted here as long as it stays within what the bible teaches about our disposition in Rom. 8. Our choices, which glorify God and draw us close to Him, are the direct results of being lead by His spirit which makes its home in us (Rom. 8:9).
quote:
It was Adam and Eve’s lack of “accountability” in the garden (blaming the serpent and each other) that exiled them. It was not the violation of the prohibition as much as the shame and guilt of their sin not leading them to repentance. God offers forgiveness, but it is our choice to live up to our end of the mutual pact.
It was not the sin that caused the seperation from God? Where does it say in the bible that Adam and Eve's ejection from the garden was due to their unrepentance?
quote:
Does God hold humans accountable for their choices/deeds? Hmm... hell rings a bell!
I have posted in another discussion that the theology of eternal torment in hell goes hand and hand with "free will" and now we can add "responsibility" for all three go together.
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lock
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Total Posts : 701
| Posted 10/28/2004 11:26 AM (GMT -6) | | Swan-
I did not say being in the flesh makes a person a sinner.
Romans 8:
1 Nothing, consequently, is now condemnation to those in Christ Jesus. Not according to flesh are they walking, but according to spirit,
2 for the spirit's law of life in Christ Jesus frees you from the law of sin and death.
3 For what was impossible to the law, in which it was infirm through the flesh, did God, sending His own Son in the likeness of sin's flesh and concerning sin, He condemns sin in the flesh,
4 that the just requirement of the law may be fulfilled in us, who are not walking in accord with flesh, but in accord with spirit.
5 For those who are in accord with flesh are disposed to that which is of the flesh, yet those who are in accord with spirit to that which is of the spirit.
6 For the disposition of the flesh is death, yet the disposition of the spirit is life and peace,
7 because the disposition of the flesh is enmity to God, for it is not subject to the law of God, for neither is it able.
8 Now those who are in flesh are not able to please God.
As for me adding to the text, just using the word "responsibility" in a biblical sense adds to the text because you will not find its Greek or Hebrew equivalent in scripture. The "light" is God's law which was given to Isreal, and according to Rom. 2:13 they will be judged according to the law.
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JEE
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 10/28/2004 12:03 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
quote:
And, as the Strong's definition (which you cite) clearly shows, the term can be translated "wish," which would in fact fit the context of Romans 7 quite well.
John-
Not according to the KJV, NLT, Webster's, Young's, Darby's , nor the ASV. You are confusing translation with interpretation.
Hi Lock,
So you obviously disagree with the Strong's definition that you posted, right?
John
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lock
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Total Posts : 701
| Posted 11/2/2004 3:05 AM (GMT -6) | | John,
The Concordant is a literal translation unaffected by preconceptions...
www.concordant.org/version/tranprin.html
Just because a translation is modern, does not make it more enlightening. I prefer tranlations which stay true to the original intention of the Greek. Let's look at how Robert Young translates this passage in his literal translation...
Rom 7:15 for that which I work, I do not acknowledge; for not what I will, this I practise, but what I hate, this I do.
Rom 7:16 And if what I do not will, this I do, I consent to the law that [it is] good,
Rom 7:17 and now it is no longer I that work it, but the sin dwelling in me,
Rom 7:18 for I have known that there doth not dwell in me, that is, in my flesh, good: for to will is present with me, and to work that which is right I do not find,
Rom 7:19 for the good that I will, I do not; but the evil that I do not will, this I practise.
Rom 7:20 And if what I do not will, this I do, it is no longer I that work it, but the sin that is dwelling in me.
Rom 7:21 I find, then, the law, that when I desire to do what is right, with me the evil is present,
Rom 7:22 for I delight in the law of God according to the inward man,
Rom 7:23 and I behold another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of the sin that [is] in my members.
Rom 7:24 A wretched man I [am]! who shall deliver me out of the body of this death?
Jesus describes the same in Matthew 26:41
"Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed [is] willing, but the flesh [is] weak"
NLV
41 Keep alert and pray. Otherwise temptation will overpower you. For though the spirit is willing enough, the body is weak!"
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Eeyore
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Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 15
| Posted 11/2/2004 3:28 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
Also how can you say we are not penalized for Adam's sin?
Um, I thought he posted scripture that shows only Adam is penalized for Adam's sin:
quote:
Deuteronomy 24:16, The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers; every man shall be put to death for his own sin.
Ezekial 18:20 "The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.
21 "But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
22 "All his transgressions which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of his righteousness which he has practiced, he will live.
Jeremiah 31:30 "But everyone will die for his own iniquity; each man who eats the sour grapes, his teeth will be set on edge.
What part of "everyone will die for his own iniquity" don't you understand?
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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 11/2/2004 5:47 AM (GMT -6) | | "The world is dangerous not because of those who do harm, but because of
those who look at it without doing anything." - Albert Einstein
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Albert Einstein
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Date Joined Nov 2004
Total Posts : 83
| Posted 11/2/2004 5:54 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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Albert Einstein
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Date Joined Nov 2004
Total Posts : 83
| Posted 11/2/2004 6:08 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 11/2/2004 7:25 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Eeyore
quote:
Originally posted by lock
Also how can you say we are not penalized for Adam's sin?
Um, I thought he posted scripture that shows only Adam is penalized for Adam's sin:
quote:
Deuteronomy 24:16, The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers; every man shall be put to death for his own sin.
Ezekial 18:20 "The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.
21 "But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
22 "All his transgressions which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of his righteousness which he has practiced, he will live.
Jeremiah 31:30 "But everyone will die for his own iniquity; each man who eats the sour grapes, his teeth will be set on edge.
What part of "everyone will die for his own iniquity" don't you understand?
Eeyore-
Had you read beyond that sentence you would have seen what I meant by that...
quote:
We have no access to the tree of life and the creation has been subjected to vanity, we have pain in our toil and women have an incredible amount of pain bringing new humans into the world, all due to one man's offense.
Say "Hi" to Pooh for me.
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lock
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Total Posts : 701
| Posted 11/2/2004 7:37 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by JEE
quote:
Originally posted by lock
John,
The Concordant is a literal translation unaffected by preconceptions...
The following is an excerpt from the Concordant website:
_____________________________
At the consummation, we find all saved, justified (Rom.5:18), vivified (1 Cor.15:22; 1 Tim, 6:13), and all the estranged reconciled (Col, 1:20). Death will be abolished (2 Tim.1:10; 1 Cor.15:26), sin having been repudiated (cf Heb.9:26), and God will be All in all (1 Cor.15:28).
_____________________________
http://www.concordant.org/about/special_truths.html
John
They also wrote this about their literal translation...
quote:
Such a work must, first of all, be faithful to the original. For this it must be practically “literal,” even where, to preserve good diction and afford readability, it cannot be actually literal. In most cases, however, substantially literal renderings can be both understandable and true to the sense of the original. Where idiom demands, synonymical variants in vocabulary and alternative means of grammatical reflection can still preserve substantial accuracy while permitting necessary latitude in expression. The translators of the Concordant Version have endeavored to translate according to these principles, thus seeking to provide a uniform and accurate, substantially literal work.
quote:
Faithful translation requires the establishing of standard equivalents between the vocabulary and grammar of the original writing and that of the translated work. When possible, these standards must be used in translation; where this is impracticable, a faithful translation must provide a consistent vocabulary which is as concordant as idiom will allow. There must be a correspondency, as uniformly expressed as possible, between the translated words and the original words. Where variants in translation are necessary, so long as the members of any certain synonymical group are used solely to represent a single word in the original, practical correspondency may still be preserved. But, wherever possible, what must be avoided is the use of any certain word in translation as the representative of two or more words in the original.
Contrary to popular opinion, faithful translation is not a matter of employing whatever word “seems to make the most sense, according to the context.” First of all, what “seems to make sense” may not be the true sense at all, but sensible only according to our own erroneous presuppositions. Yet even where one’s suppositions and conclusions are substantially correct, the idea conceived to be that of the author, may be a connotative one in the original, perhaps expressed as a figure of speech, not as a literal declaration. In such a case, though we may have grasped the author’s thought, we will fail to translate his words unless we render his words by words which, in essential meaning, correspond to his.
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Eeyore
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Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 15
| Posted 11/2/2004 8:10 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
Had you read beyond that sentence you would have seen what I meant by that...
quote:
We have no access to the tree of life and the creation has been subjected to vanity, we have pain in our toil and women have an incredible amount of pain bringing new humans into the world, all due to one man's offense.
Oh, I thought the topic was the penalty of death, not pain in childbirth.
quote:
Deuteronomy 24:16, The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers; every man shall be put to death for his own sin.
Ezekial 18:20 "The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.
21 "But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
22 "All his transgressions which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of his righteousness which he has practiced, he will live.
Jeremiah 31:30 "But everyone will die for his own iniquity; each man who eats the sour grapes, his teeth will be set on edge.
No one suffers spiritual death due to Adam's sin (other than Adam), "everyone will die for his own iniquity", "the person who sins will die", "every man shall be put to death for his own sin"....
Sounds like "responsibility" to me.
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Eeyore
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Total Posts : 15
| Posted 11/2/2004 11:34 AM (GMT -6) | | There's three passages about responsibility right here:
Deuteronomy 24:16, The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers; every man shall be put to death for his own sin.
Ezekial 18:20 "The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.
21 "But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
22 "All his transgressions which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of his righteousness which he has practiced, he will live.
Jeremiah 31:30 "But everyone will die for his own iniquity; each man who eats the sour grapes, his teeth will be set on edge.
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