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Eeyore
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 15
| Posted 11/2/2004 11:45 AM (GMT -6) |   | "And do not fear those who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." (Matthew 10:28)
spiritual death
"But we had to be merry and rejoice, for this brother of yours was dead and has begun to live, and was lost and has been found." (Luke 15:32)
spiritual death
And if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. (Romans 8:10)
spiritual death
And when you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, (Colossians 2:13)
spiritual death
For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead. (James 2:26)
spiritual death
For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God. (1 Peter 4:6)
spiritual death
I protest, brethren, by the boasting in you, which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. (1 Corinthians 15:31)
spiritual death
Genesis 2: 17 "but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die."
spiritual death
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Eeyore
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 15
| Posted 11/2/2004 12:14 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
Eeyore-
I have yet to read "spiritual death" in the scriptures, and I have yet to find "responsibility" in the scriptures.
Are you being facetious or serious?
Certain words are labels for concepts. There are lots of labels not in scripture yet their concepts are. Like:
omnipotence
omniscience
trinity
obligation/responsibility
If someone posts scripture that clearly illustrates the concept, saying a particular label isn't in scripture is infantile.
I've posted plenty of verses showing that people are dead yet still physically alive, this concept is "spiritual death".
Gen. 4:7 God tells Cain, "And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it."
This illustrates responsibility/free will.
Joshua 24:15, Joshua tells Israel, "If it seems evil to you to serve Yahweh, choose this day whom you will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve Yahweh."
This illustrates responsibility/free will.
Deuteronomy 24:16, The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers; every man shall be put to death for his own sin.
This illustrates responsibility/free will.
Ezekial 18:20 "The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.
21 "But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
22 "All his transgressions which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of his righteousness which he has practiced, he will live.
This illustrates responsibility/free will.
Jeremiah 31:30 "But everyone will die for his own iniquity"
This illustrates responsibility/free will.
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 11/3/2004 3:08 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
"And do not fear those who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." (Matthew 10:28)
spiritual death
This does not describe a mysterious form of spiritual death! This is Jesus speaking of the fires of Geheena. Look at Isaiah 66..
Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, [that] from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
Isa 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring to all flesh.
First of all this judgment is a part of the Kingdom of the Messiah when Jesus returns. Second, this (along with Luke 12:5) clearly states that these men are physically DEAD. Thirdly, it is only through the mistranslation of hades does one develop spiritual death from the passages which speak of geheena.
quote:
"But we had to be merry and rejoice, for this brother of yours was dead and has begun to live, and was lost and has been found." (Luke 15:32)
spiritual death
Figure of speech in a parable, not spiritual death.
quote:
And if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. (Romans 8:10)
spiritual death
And when you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, (Colossians 2:13)
spiritual death
Are you serious? Read the verse above (Col. 2:12), we are dead to sin because it was crucified and entombed with Christ! Your claim here is that we are spiritually dead when alive in Christ!?
quote:
For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead. (James 2:26)
spiritual death
For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God. (1 Peter 4:6)
spiritual death
James and Peter's evangel was mainly for the Jews (Gal. 2:8) and was focused around the kingdom of the Messiah and the millennium in which the faithful jews will rule on earth with Christ. Note the passage from 1 Peter which speaks of them being judged, which speaks of the white throne judgment. Those who do not live and reign with Christ will be judged before the white throne. They then will be subject to the second death, not a spiritual death.
quote:
I protest, brethren, by the boasting in you, which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. (1 Corinthians 15:31)
spiritual death
So, Paul was daily dying a spiritual death while serving God?
quote:
Genesis 2: 17 "but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die."
spiritual death
Due to a poor translation you miss out on the Hebrewism here. In the Hebrew the phrase is "dying, you shall surely die". This speaks of not only the loss of access to the tree of life but also the corruption which the creation was subjected to due to the entrance of sin. Our bodies are physically dying everyday as we creep closer and closer for our time to die.
Sorry, Eeyore, I still do not see "spiritual death" in the bible.
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 11/3/2004 3:46 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Eeyore
quote:
Originally posted by lock
Eeyore-
I have yet to read "spiritual death" in the scriptures, and I have yet to find "responsibility" in the scriptures.
Are you being facetious or serious?
Certain words are labels for concepts. There are lots of labels not in scripture yet their concepts are. Like:
omnipotence
omniscience
trinity
obligation/responsibility
If someone posts scripture that clearly illustrates the concept, saying a particular label isn't in scripture is infantile.
I've posted plenty of verses showing that people are dead yet still physically alive, this concept is "spiritual death".
Gen. 4:7 God tells Cain, "And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it."
This illustrates responsibility/free will.
Joshua 24:15, Joshua tells Israel, "If it seems evil to you to serve Yahweh, choose this day whom you will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve Yahweh."
This illustrates responsibility/free will.
Deuteronomy 24:16, The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers; every man shall be put to death for his own sin.
This illustrates responsibility/free will.
Ezekial 18:20 "The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.
21 "But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
22 "All his transgressions which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of his righteousness which he has practiced, he will live.
This illustrates responsibility/free will.
Jeremiah 31:30 "But everyone will die for his own iniquity"
This illustrates responsibility/free will.
These passages speak of how God will judge accordingly due to the amount of light one is given. For those who are under the law, God will judge according to the law, for those who were not under the law, they will be judged without the light of the law (Rom. 2:11-13). God will hold man accountable due to the amount of light he has been given. But man is not "responsible" for the way he was created. Do not confuse "responsibility" with accountability due to the amount of light given.
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Eeyore
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 15
| Posted 11/3/2004 4:38 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
These passages speak of how God will judge accordingly due to the amount of light one is given.
No, these passages say "sin", "iniquity", that's why I quoted them.
Gen. 4:7 God tells Cain, "And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it."
This illustrates responsibility/free will.
Joshua 24:15, Joshua tells Israel, "If it seems evil to you to serve Yahweh, choose this day whom you will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve Yahweh."
This illustrates responsibility/free will.
Deuteronomy 24:16, The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers; every man shall be put to death for his own sin.
This illustrates responsibility/free will.
Ezekial 18:20 "The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.
21 "But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
22 "All his transgressions which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of his righteousness which he has practiced, he will live.
This illustrates responsibility/free will.
Jeremiah 31:30 "But everyone will die for his own iniquity"
This illustrates responsibility/free will.
quote:
Do not confuse "responsibility" with accountability due to the amount of light given.
Accountability for what they did, given the "amount of light" they received, IS responsibility! Hello, McFly....
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 11/3/2004 7:40 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Accountability for what they did, given the "amount of light" they received, IS responsibility! Hello, McFly....
Man is not "responsible" for the fact that he is going to sin because he did not have a hand in how he was created. Isreal will be judged according to the law (that would be the amount of light they were given). All of your references, with the exception of Gen. 4:7, when kept in context speak of Israel, which is under the law.
Considering Gen. 4:7, I am not familar with the translation you have quoted. The KJV translates mashal "rule". Never does it translate mashal as "master", but as rule (38 times), ruler (19 times), reign (8 times), dominion (7 times), governor (4 times), ruled over (2 times), power (2 times), indeed (1 time); 81 total. The closest to the idea of "mastering" something would be to have dominion over, but still this speaks of ruling over something, not mastering it.
Robert Young, in his literal translation, has Gen 4:7 as follows...
"Is there not, if thou dost well, acceptance? and if thou dost not well, at the opening a sin-offering is crouching, and unto thee its desire, and thou rulest over it."
Chattaah is translated both sin (182 times in the A.V.) and sin offering (116 times in the A.V.) depending on the context. According to Young's translation, God is telling Cain that if he does not well, that a sin-offering is waiting for him. A perfect illustration of man thinking he can serve and honor God anyway he wants, even though God has taken care of everything.
The bible does not say God will hold man "responsible" for his sins. The Bible states that God will "judge" man according to his acts. Judge = krino. Krino does not carry the idea of holding one responsible, instead it speaks of making right what is wrong. This is exactly what God will do. In His judgment He will correct all that mankind has done wrong, so that man will have a sufficient realization of God's righteousness. It is for the good of the one being judged. How can we assume that God's judgment can be anything less? God is love in the absolute. His dealings with man has this always in mind.
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Eeyore
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 15
| Posted 11/3/2004 7:57 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
The bible does not say God will hold man "responsible" for his sins.
Wipe your eyeglasses, McFly....
Romans 1:19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,
James 1:14 But each one is tempted, when he is drawn away by his own lust, and enticed.
responsibility/ownership
Gen. 4:7 God tells Cain, "And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it."
This illustrates responsibility/free will/ownership/mastery
Joshua 24:15, Joshua tells Israel, "If it seems evil to you to serve Yahweh, choose this day whom you will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve Yahweh."
This illustrates responsibility/free will.
Deuteronomy 24:16, The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers; every man shall be put to death for his own sin.
This illustrates responsibility/free will.
Ezekial 18:20 "The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.
21 "But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
22 "All his transgressions which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of his righteousness which he has practiced, he will live.
This illustrates responsibility/free will.
Jeremiah 31:30 "But everyone will die for his own iniquity"
This illustrates responsibility/free will.
Accountability for what they did, given the "amount of light" they received, IS responsibility! | | Back to Top | | |
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Eeyore
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 15
| Posted 11/3/2004 8:23 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
You will not find a Greek or Hebrew word in the scriptures which will be properly TRANSLATED into "responsibility
Are you being facetious or serious?
Certain words are labels for concepts. There are lots of labels not in scripture yet their concepts are. Like:
omnipotence
omniscience
trinity
obligation/responsibility
If someone posts scripture that clearly illustrates the concept, saying a particular label isn't in scripture is infantile.
Gen. 4:7 God tells Cain, "And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it."
This illustrates responsibility/free will.
Joshua 24:15, Joshua tells Israel, "If it seems evil to you to serve Yahweh, choose this day whom you will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve Yahweh."
This illustrates responsibility/free will.
Deuteronomy 24:16, The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers; every man shall be put to death for his own sin.
This illustrates responsibility/free will.
Ezekial 18:20 "The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.
21 "But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
22 "All his transgressions which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of his righteousness which he has practiced, he will live.
This illustrates responsibility/free will.
Jeremiah 31:30 "But everyone will die for his own iniquity"
This illustrates responsibility/free will.
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