 |
| 
One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 11/3/2004 11:19 AM (GMT -6) |   | Modes:
quote:
We'er talking past each other here. The question is this: What does justice and peace look like? Does anyone get an opinion on this other than us?
I ask this because OBL makes some claims about why he did what he did and if we want peace and justice, then all the voices must be included in the conversation. Even the enemy's, or should I say, especially the enemy's!
WHY did OBL bomb America? Can someone answer that question with direct reference to the source document above or is that too much to ask? To let OBL answer the question?
Grrr. Right, right. Refocus the conversation. You're right, Modes. For real.
(sigh)
I REALLY want to deal with the substance of OBL's message.
Yeah.
| | Back to Top | | |
 |
JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 11/3/2004 11:21 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by ModesofThought
We'er talking past each other here. The question is this: What does justice and peace look like? Does anyone get an opinion on this other than us?
Justice and peace, like all kingdom values, are "now but not yet." While we must strive as Christians to reflect God's justice and peace in this world, the kingdom of Christ does not rule over all the kingdoms of men as yet, any more than it did in Paul's day, though he apparently had no problem affirming that the Roman Empire (that would eventually behead him) was "ordained of God." In the in-between time that we live in, Christ's kingdom primarily is to rule in our hearts and lives.
quote:
I ask this because OBL makes some claims about why he did what he did and if we want peace and justice, then all the voices must be included in the conversation. Even the enemy's, or should I say, especially the enemy's!
WHY did OBL bomb America? Can someone answer that question with direct reference to the source document above or is that too much to ask? To let OBL answer the question?
I didn't think this was even something anyone was unclear about, Modes. OBL claims that he acted in retaliation for the bombardment of Beirut by the Israeli/U.S. coalition. The problem is: OBL was never the head of the state of Lebanon or any other state, and as such he has no jurisdiction to declare a retaliatory war on the U.S. Has he ever even lived in Lebanon?
It seems like you guys wouldn't be satisfied unless one were to accept the basic premise of OBL's argument. I don't, and I don't think anyone but a sympathizer with terrorism would. Do you guys REALLY believe OBL's actions were justified?
Sincerely,
John
http://revivaltheology.net | | Back to Top | | |
|
Mayflower
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 445
| Posted 11/3/2004 11:22 AM (GMT -6) | | JEE wrote:
quote:
You apparently missed perhaps the most infamous thread in CVM history, May. "God is complicit in evil."
I didn't miss it, John.
My question was tongue-in-cheek.
Peace...
<>< | | Back to Top | | |
|
JET
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2002
Total Posts : 397
| Posted 11/3/2004 11:57 AM (GMT -6) | | JEE:quote:
OBL is a complete idiot. The only reason his plan succeeded on 9/11 was because he was able to deceive a bunch of morons to carry it out, thinking they would inherit eternity in paradise to feast on their carnal desires. The sooner the world is rid of OBL the better.
May God bless President George W. Bush! He is a minister of God to execute justice on the heads of the evildoers (Romans 13).
MephE:
quote:
The "minister of God" is doing a bang-up job on "executing justice" on the right people...right?
I mean....
Study Puts Iraqi Deaths of Civilians at 100,000
By ELISABETH ROSENTHAL,
International Herald Tribune
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/29/international/europe/29casualties.html
All of this...while OBL had time, resources, and ABILITY to broadcast WORLDWIDE the message I just posted here.
Thousands of innocent women and children...dead.
Osama Bin Laden...alive.
God's "minister" of JUSTICE?????
JEE:
quote:
GWB (a duly elected head of state) is, by virtue of the legitimacy of his government, a minister of God to execute justice on the evildoers.
JET: Going after OBL is one thing. Starting a war with Iraq is another. I think most people who question the justice and/or the legitimacy of the war in Iraq would grant the justice and legitimacy of going after OBL. I'd also grant that Rom. 13 is relevant to the discussion, but I don't think Rom. 13 can be used to avoid discussing the merits of the US's attack on Iraq (as a response to OBL). Otherwise, Rom. 13 could be used to justify any and all governmental action. Seems to me that Rom. 13 states a principal, but in specific cases you still have to evaluate governmental action on its own merits on a case by case basis. In other words, we can't just say that the US government is a legitimate government and therefore its actions serve to fulfill Rom. 13. And this means we can't avoid the question of whether it was just and/or legitimate and/or good policy to start a war with Iraq as a response to OBL.
| | Back to Top | | |
|
JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 11/3/2004 12:08 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by JET
JET: Going after OBL is one thing. Starting a war with Iraq is another. I think most people who question the justice and/or the legitimacy of the war in Iraq would grant the justice and legitimacy of going after OBL. I'd also grant that Rom. 13 is relevant to the discussion, but I don't think Rom. 13 can be used to avoid discussing the merits of the US's attack on Iraq (as a response to OBL). Otherwise, Rom. 13 could be used to justify any and all governmental action. Seems to me that Rom. 13 states a principal, but in specific cases you still have to evaluate governmental action on its own merits on a case by case basis. In other words, we can't just say that the US government is a legitimate government and therefore its actions serve to fulfill Rom. 13. And this means we can't avoid the question of whether it was just and/or legitimate and/or good policy to start a war with Iraq as a response to OBL.
Hi JET,
I haven't ever tried to argue that the invasion of Iraq was "a response to OBL," and I won't. I certainly have had some misgivings about the wisdom of invading Iraq like we did when we did, but now that we are there, the point seems rather moot. Even Kerry did not plan to remove our troops until he had established a stable democratic gov't in Iraq.
That said, from a political and military perspective, I don't think the Iraq war was worth what we may have thought it was worth. I personally think (unless there's some really juicy intelligence that the general public is not privy to) that Iran or South Korea would have been a more important target for the U.S. administration.
And again, I am only speaking to the political and military expediency of the "war on terror." As a Christian, I am personally opposed to violence; that is, violence by me against others, except in defense of those I am responsible for. However, the United States is not the Church, and as such is not bound by the same moral obligations a Christian would be.
John
http://revivaltheology.net | | Back to Top | | |
|
JET
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2002
Total Posts : 397
| Posted 11/3/2004 3:33 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
JEE: I haven't ever tried to argue that the invasion of Iraq was "a response to OBL," and I won't. I certainly have had some misgivings about the wisdom of invading Iraq like we did when we did, but now that we are there, the point seems rather moot. Even Kerry did not plan to remove our troops until he had established a stable democratic gov't in Iraq.
That said, from a political and military perspective, I don't think the Iraq war was worth what we may have thought it was worth. I personally think (unless there's some really juicy intelligence that the general public is not privy to) that Iran or South Korea would have been a more important target for the U.S. administration.
And again, I am only speaking to the political and military expediency of the "war on terror." As a Christian, I am personally opposed to violence; that is, violence by me against others, except in defense of those I am responsible for. However, the United States is not the Church, and as such is not bound by the same moral obligations a Christian would be.
Its Bush’s war and his argument is that the Iraq war was and is a necessary response to 911. OBL’s argument (in the original post) is that the war is “unjustified” and thus he and other Muslims are entitled to retaliate. You agree that the Iraq war is not justifiable as a response to 911 (or at least you are not willing to argue that it was justifiable as a response to 911). If you have such misgivings about the war, can you imagine how certain people in other parts of the world might have a hard time accepting the idea of Bush as a minister of God to execute justice on the evildoers? And if Bush’s justification for the war is untenable, should we be so quick to defend Bush considering all of the harm the war has caused? Isn’t it at least too complicated to defend Bush simply on the basis of Romans 13?
The original post illustrates the huge chasm between how America views itself and how it is viewed by others. (We would be naive to believe that there are not multitudes who completely agree with OBL’s view of America, if not his tactics.) If we are too quick to defend Bush, we may never even consider the possibility that the war on Iraq was wrong. And if we never even consider that possibility, then perhaps the multitudes are right about us.
Anyway, thanks for listening,
Earl | | Back to Top | | |
|
Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 11/3/2004 5:51 PM (GMT -6) | | JEE: Has he [UBL] ever even lived in Lebanon?
Tom: Can't help correcting the spelling. It's Usamah, the "u" pronounced like "you" without the "y." At least in Arabic.
Yes, Bin Laden lived in Lebanon. He attended High School not five minutes from my home here in Lebanon; a High School run by the Quakers. Bin Laden went to a friggin passifist High School (they have daily devotions).
Peace,
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
|
Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 11/3/2004 6:03 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by ModesofThought
WHY did OBL bomb America? Can someone answer that question with direct reference to the source document above or is that too much to ask? To let OBL answer the question?
$ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $
$ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $
| | Back to Top | | |
|
Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 11/3/2004 7:02 PM (GMT -6) | | John: P.S.: The word is spelled "pacifist," not "passivist." (My brother is a liberal Quaker). 
Tom: Ha! That's funny. Not sure why I spelled it that way. Probably because I haven't slept much in a week over here. Blaaaaah.
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
|
selah
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 11/4/2004 3:37 AM (GMT -6) | | Thinking realistically...we have to start where we are, right?
I'm guessing the objective of a discussion such as this is to learn how to do it better (more than to lament/shame how we have done it in the past). Right or wrong, I chose not to vote. In my heart I was so conflicted that I just couldn't. (actually I was going to write in my daughter - because I believe she could straighten the whole thing out, but I'm fundamentally against her living at ground zero so...) Like QFT, I sure learned a lot on my quest to vote well. In the end, perhaps I learned too much. See, for me, this goes back to the knowledge of good and evil. The more I read, the more I learned about good actions and evil actions (sin, whatever) on both sides. I became convinced that in this case, both, like me, sin. And I just couldn't measure/judge/discern to what degree one sin weighed heavier than another. I guess we can know what we see, but what we don't see - only God knows. I'm not recommending we don't vote, but I am recommending being lead by the spirit - any way you vote. (I didn't feel lead) Whatever the outcome (now Bush) I'm sure of this: it is our new task to love him and help him via that love anyway we can. I would have the same response toward Kerry - had he won.
After reading the original post (along with a few links), I've come to the conclusion that Modes/Meph definitely have a point. We MUST reflect Jesus - that is our meta-purpose! (PS JEE, Please LOOK at JESUS and how He personally handled political issues - He is the Head of the church). Everything else pales in comparison. UBL/GWB - whichever we choose to call our enemy, the scriptural answer is to love.
Practically, how do we carry this out? well, you may not like my answer on this one. On the one hand, I think we have to forget what's behind (forgive)and press on -believing all things etc. On the other, I think we have to hold GWB accountable for his grave mistakes somehow. Perhaps we can pray that he will focus on Jesus, renew his mind to be like Jesus, gain a strong support system that brings clarity to God's Global Worldview...and then trust the outflow of all that.
Whether Kerry/GWB/UBL/ or my neighbor - I think we have to learn to live in the question "what does love look like now - for him/her/them."
I do not think love looks like bombing - ever. It doesn't look like oppression. It doesn't rob others of their freedom or pillage their land for financial gain. It doesn't kill/slaughter/dismember anyone. And, I don't think it looks like complaining or causing terror either. Maybe we could start there. What I do know (and as we heard last night) is that there is a cost to this radical kind of love. If we're going to build bridges where bridges have been burned...it will cost us. The question is are we willing to pay?
I don't believe we can trust our knee jerk reactions. We all have to fight that. We have to wrestle with the questions together (as the Body) and move forward united (even with white evangelical males) as much as possible.
Who knows, we just may be called to lay it all down.
ok that's about 3 cents, so I'm over my limit, sorry.
love
selah
PS. Tom,wow, a pacifist school eh? makes you wonder about the guys life story... Truly, UBL, could use our prayers too. If we are to be singleminded, I think we have to hope "the good" for him (and GWB AND Kerry) as well - even if that good includes some sort of stop action. ~maranatha!
"When we acknowledge that all of life is sacred and that each act is an act of choice and therefore sacred, then life is a sacred dance lived consciously each moment. When we live at this level, we participate in the creation of a better world."
Scout Cloud Lee | | Back to Top | | |
|
Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 11/4/2004 5:01 AM (GMT -6) | | Selah of Fall Colors: PS. Tom, wow, a pacifist school eh?
Tom the Terrorist (from Beirut): Naw, a PASSIVIST school. 
 OBL swearing at me in Arabic.
| | Back to Top | | |
|
JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 11/4/2004 12:23 PM (GMT -6) | | Originally posted by Selah
quote:
moral rebels moral rebels red rum red rum
By mocking the term, do you mean to deny its validity? In your view, no one deserves Hell?
quote:
Yep, Jesus is loving -- especially if you consider hell to be locked from the inside  Come on John, don't you think you're sidestepping the issue?
No, but it seems you are. My point is that in executing justice upon criminals against God's law (who exacerbate their guilt by refusing the free pardon offered) God is NOT unbenevolent, and according to Romans 13, a secular government, in waging war, is not by definition being unbenevolent.
quote:
Anyway, Jesus sure didn't get his undies in a bundle regarding politics.
I agree. It makes one wonder why Meph and Modes have gotten theirs in such a bundle as to virtually condemn everyone who calls themselves Christian and voted for Bush. There are few things as obnoxious as a self-righteous liberal who doesn't think he's (or she's) self-righteous (Which is basically what I find most often coming from the supposedly "extravagant love, not judgement" bunch on this board).
Unbundling me undies...
John
http://revivaltheology.net | | Back to Top | | |
|
selah
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 11/4/2004 2:00 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by JEE
By mocking the term, do you mean to deny its validity? In your view, no one deserves Hell?
No John. In my view, who deserves and who doesn't deserve hell is not my business. It is God's business. If I focus on hell I lose my focus on Heaven. So why would I ever try to answer a question on moral rebels deserving/not deserving hell?
quote:
selah: Come on John, don't you think you're sidestepping the issue?
quote:
John:
No, but it seems you are. My point is that in executing justice upon criminals against God's law (who exacerbate their guilt by refusing the free pardon offered) God is NOT unbenevolent, and according to Romans 13, a secular government, in waging war, is not by definition being unbenevolent.
War, in this case, is unloving and seems to be altogether unjust -- and leading us nowhere I might add. How is it that Romans 13 trumps all the verses on killing/loving our enemy/forgiving for you? Come on John, you're starting to scare me  >disapprove face 4 u.
quote:
There are few things as obnoxious as a self-righteous liberal who doesn't think he's (or she's) self-righteous
Well, there's one thing as obnoxious... a self-righteous conservative warmonger who's become so hardened she/he no longer hears the cries of the 2 year old hiding under the bed paralyzed in fear everytime a bomb drops...
but no one's pointing fingers or naming names here.
quote:
(Which is basically what I find most often coming from the supposedly "extravagant love, not judgement" bunch on this board).
well if you're referring to me, I'm sorry. I honestly believe it's better to err on the side of trying to be loving/non-judmental then to bejudgmental. As you know, we're all in process.
quote:
Unbundling me undies...
Good. That ought to help!
"When we acknowledge that all of life is sacred and that each act is an act of choice and therefore sacred, then life is a sacred dance lived consciously each moment. When we live at this level, we participate in the creation of a better world."
Scout Cloud Lee | | Back to Top | | |
|
JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 11/4/2004 4:00 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Selah
quote:
Originally posted by JEE
By mocking the term, do you mean to deny its validity? In your view, no one deserves Hell?
No John. In my view, who deserves and who doesn't deserve hell is not my business. It is God's business. If I focus on hell I lose my focus on Heaven. So why would I ever try to answer a question on moral rebels deserving/not deserving hell?
Because it seems to me that your view tends to deny the justice of hell, that's all.
quote:
selah: Come on John, don't you think you're sidestepping the issue?
quote:
John:
No, but it seems you are. My point is that in executing justice upon criminals against God's law (who exacerbate their guilt by refusing the free pardon offered) God is NOT unbenevolent, and according to Romans 13, a secular government, in waging war, is not by definition being unbenevolent.
Selah said:
quote:
War, in this case, is unloving and seems to be altogether unjust -- and leading us nowhere I might add. How is it that Romans 13 trumps all the verses on killing/loving our enemy/forgiving for you? Come on John, you're starting to scare me >disapprove face 4 u.
Again, it is my sense that your view, along with the view of most of the liberals on this website, greatly confuses the church with the state. The United States Government is not the Church, and is not bound by the "love thine enemy" command of Christ. Do we ever see Paul demanding that the Roman Empire love its enemies?
quote:
Well, there's one thing as obnoxious... a self-righteous conservative warmonger who's become so hardened she/he no longer hears the cries of the 2 year old hiding under the bed paralyzed in fear everytime a bomb drops...
See, this is precisely the kind of judgmental absurdity your position requires of you. Stating or implying that I am a "warmonger" and am "so hardened I no longer hear the cries of a two year old," etc., is so absurd as to really not even deserve justification by a response. But, for the sake of argument I will respond this time by saying I am not in favor of war, and am definitely not in favor of warmongering nor of being uncompassionate towards infants, children, and women. C'mon, get real! I have a little two-year-old daughter that I would literally KILL to defend.
Anyway, it was Meph who originally posited the idea that "God is complicit in evil," and that it might be that Zosia's eyeballs were cut out for some greater good/sacrifice the pawn to save the queen, type maneuver, not me.
It is always terrible when children suffer.
John
P.S.: I haven't sensed judgment from you, necessarily, Selah, but as this thread makes plain, your position and those who hold it, are tolerant of those you want to be tolerant of, but are definitely NOT tolerant of a politically conservative Christian like me, which I find curious and somewhat intriguing, really.
http://revivaltheology.net | | Back to Top | | |
|
trosie
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550
| Posted 11/21/2004 3:46 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Stating or implying that I am a "warmonger" and am "so hardened I no longer hear the cries of a two year old," etc., is so absurd as to really not even deserve justification by a response. But, for the sake of argument I will respond this time by saying I am not in favor of war, and am definitely not in favor of warmongering nor of being uncompassionate towards infants, children, and women. C'mon, get real! I have a little two-year-old daughter that I would literally KILL to defend.
Anyway, it was Meph who originally posited the idea that "God is complicit in evil," and that it might be that Zosia's eyeballs were cut out for some greater good/sacrifice the pawn to save the queen, type maneuver, not me.
It is always terrible when children suffer.
I hear ya, John! I started wondering around here when Modes, Mephi, and Doc all started labeling “ALL” of us who voted for Bush . I too do NOT agree with killing. I am SAD that two year old children are being killed in this war BUT are THEY as concerned with the unborn babies being torturously SLAUTERED daily at the abortion clinics? This was what compelled me to vote for Bush -- I voted the less of two evils. How can I be judged for caring about the unborn hence voting for the one who would allow less of that?
Where are more lives being lost -- the abortion clinics or the war? | | Back to Top | | |
| 72 posts in this thread.
Viewing Page : 1 2 3 |
| Forum Information | Currently it is Monday, November 09, 2026 7:05 PM (GMT -6)
There are a total of 97,718 posts in 6,040 threads.
In the last 3 days there were 0 new threads and 0 reply posts. View Active Threads
|
Forum powered by dotNetBB v2.42EC SP3
dotNetBB © 2000-2026 |
|
|