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yxboom
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2002
Total Posts : 7
| Posted 9/4/2003 5:06 PM (GMT -6) |   | I did a search and came up empty so Im going to post it.
Isaiah 48:1 Hear this, O house of Jacob,who are called by the name of Israel, and who came from the waters of Judah, who swear by the name of the LORD and confess the God of Israel, but not in truth or right.
2 For they call themselves after the holy city, and stay themselves on the God of Israel; the LORD of hosts is his name.
3 "The former things I declared of old; they went out from my mouth and I announced them; then suddenly I did them and they came to pass.
4 Because I know that you are obstinate, and your neck is an iron sinew and your forehead brass,
5 I declared them to you from of old, before they came to pass I announced them to you, lest you should say, 'My idol did them, my carved image and my metal image commanded them.'
6 "You have heard; now see all this; and will you not declare it? From this time forth I announce to you new things, hidden things that you have not known.
7 They are created now, not long ago; before today you have never heard of them, lest you should say, 'Behold, I knew them.'
8 You have never heard, you have never known, from of old your ear has not been opened. For I knew that you would surely deal treacherously, and that from before birth you were called a rebel.
This is an interesting passage that I find curiously familiar with the passage White used as a self-proclaimed ringer to the OV with the challenge against the idols. Now it is not beyond an OVT whether one denies that God defies LFW or not to adequatly show the flaw in the argument about God declaring what He will bring to pass however the question here rests on verse 8. I added the previous verses for context but I would like some thoughts on verse 8 wherein God declares Jacob pre-birth a rebel. I find it particularly interesting when dealing with a nation as a whole.
Any thoughts?
Deuteronomy 32:41 If I whet My glittering sword, and My hand takes hold on judgment, I will render vengeance to My enemies, and repay those who hate Me.” ’ | | Back to Top | | |
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fyodor
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 179
| Posted 9/5/2003 8:43 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
You lose 13 to 1.
I enjoy "losing" as much as the next person, however...
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=from
FROM
1 -- used as a function word to indicate a starting point of a physical movement or a starting point in measuring or reckoning or in a statement of limits <came here from the city> <a week from today> <cost from $5 to $10>
2 -- used as a function word to indicate physical separation or an act or condition of removal, abstention, exclusion, release, subtraction, or differentiation <protection from the sun> <relief from anxiety>
3 -- used as a function word to indicate the source, cause, agent, or basis <we conclude from this> <a call from my lawyer> <inherited a love of music from his father> <worked hard from necessity>
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=womb
WOMB
Main Entry: womb
Pronunciation: 'wüm
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English wamb, womb, from Old English; akin to Old High German wamba belly
Date: before 12th century
1 : UTERUS
2 a : a cavity or space that resembles a womb in containing and enveloping b : a place where something is generated
- wombed /'wümd/ adjective
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=Uterus
UTERUS
Main Entry: uter·us
Pronunciation: 'yü-t&-r&s, 'yü-tr&s
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural uteri /'yü-t&-"rI/; also uter·us·es
Etymology: Latin, belly, womb; probably akin to Greek hoderos belly, Sanskrit udara
Date: 1615
1 : an organ of the female mammal for containing and usually for nourishing the young during development previous to birth -- called also womb
2 : a structure in some lower animals analogous to the uterus in which eggs or young develop
If FROM suggests a starting point and WOMB meaning UTERUS suggests an organ for nourishing young previous to birth then from the womb would suggest a starting point prior to birth.
The version of the text you quoted which I referred to,
"48:8 KJV
"Yea, thou heardest not; yea, thou knewest not; yea, from that time [that] thine ear was not opened: for I knew that thou wouldest deal very treacherously, and wast called a transgressor from the womb."
could be read, "called a transgressor at a starting point previous to birth"
As I originally said, "'from the womb' seems to suggest prior to being born...."
†††"One rarely finds an exposition of which it holds true that the exposition is that which is expounded." – S. Kierkegaard | | Back to Top | | |
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Tigress
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252
| Posted 9/5/2003 11:41 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by fyodor
quote:
You lose 13 to 1.
I enjoy "losing" as much as the next person, however...
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=from
FROM
1 -- used as a function word to indicate a starting point of a physical movement or a starting point in measuring or reckoning or in a statement of limits <came here from the city> <a week from today> <cost from $5 to $10>
2 -- used as a function word to indicate physical separation or an act or condition of removal, abstention, exclusion, release, subtraction, or differentiation <protection from the sun> <relief from anxiety>
3 -- used as a function word to indicate the source, cause, agent, or basis <we conclude from this> <a call from my lawyer> <inherited a love of music from his father> <worked hard from necessity>
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=womb
WOMB
Main Entry: womb
Pronunciation: 'wüm
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English wamb, womb, from Old English; akin to Old High German wamba belly
Date: before 12th century
1 : UTERUS
2 a : a cavity or space that resembles a womb in containing and enveloping b : a place where something is generated
- wombed /'wümd/ adjective
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=Uterus
UTERUS
Main Entry: uter·us
Pronunciation: 'yü-t&-r&s, 'yü-tr&s
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural uteri /'yü-t&-"rI/; also uter·us·es
Etymology: Latin, belly, womb; probably akin to Greek hoderos belly, Sanskrit udara
Date: 1615
1 : an organ of the female mammal for containing and usually for nourishing the young during development previous to birth -- called also womb
2 : a structure in some lower animals analogous to the uterus in which eggs or young develop
If FROM suggests a starting point and WOMB meaning UTERUS suggests an organ for nourishing young previous to birth then from the womb would suggest a starting point prior to birth.
The version of the text you quoted which I referred to,
"48:8 KJV
"Yea, thou heardest not; yea, thou knewest not; yea, from that time [that] thine ear was not opened: for I knew that thou wouldest deal very treacherously, and wast called a transgressor from the womb."
could be read, "called a transgressor at a starting point previous to birth"
As I originally said, "'from the womb' seems to suggest prior to being born...."
Well, if your definition turns out to be the correct one, these verses prove that a person has a soul prior to conception and would therefore prove that abortion at any stage is murder. But that's a whole other thread!
Tigress 
"Name a shrub after me. Preferably one that's prickly and difficult to eradicate."
-Captain Jack Aubrey
"Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World" | | Back to Top | | |
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Paul5388
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 295
| Posted 9/5/2003 6:51 PM (GMT -6) | | Laika,
I think I tried to tell everyone, contrary to Honorman's contentions, multiple version create more problems than they solve.
Isa 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself; (KJV) This is the identical phrase as 48.8 and clearly shows Isaiah was obviously formed prior to birth. | | Back to Top | | |
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honorman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 9/6/2003 5:55 AM (GMT -6) | | From my point of view, the argument is irrelevant. God could simply know the tendencies of Jacob's personality, know that given the situation he would confront, how he would generally act. No big deal there. Given God's knowledge of our personalities and how they develop I think it would be pretty easy for God to predict this without exhaustive knowledge.
BTW, Paul nice memory there. Nice to know you don't forget such things, nor the chance to bring them up again... | | Back to Top | | |
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Laika
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 9/6/2003 6:16 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by yxboom
Thanks for the replies and I don't lose on a 13-1 odd when I am on the OV team 
It was a joke. Nobody wins or loses, we all get muddy and head for the showers.
quote:
Anyway, any thoughts about how this relates to national Israel?
It's in verse one
Isaiah 48:1
"Hear this, O house of Jacob, who are named Israel
And who came forth from the loins of Judah,
Who swear by the name of the LORD
And invoke the God of Israel,
But not in truth nor in righteousness."
Genesis 25:
20 and Isaac was forty years old when he took Rebekah, the
daughter of Bethuel the Aramean of Paddan-aram, the sister of
Laban the Aramean, to be his wife.
21 Isaac prayed to the LORD on behalf of his wife, because she
was barren; and the LORD answered him and Rebekah his wife conceived.
22 But the children struggled together within her; and
she said, "If it is so, why then am I this way?" So she went to
inquire of the LORD.
23 The LORD said to her,
"Two nations are in your womb;
And two peoples will be separated from your body;
And one people shall be stronger than the other;
And the older shall serve the younger."
This is explained in Romans 9 as well. Paul is talking about nations in Romans 9. He's lamenting the nation of Israel, his fellow country men.
inside you the time moves and she don't fade
the ghost in you she don't fade | | Back to Top | | |
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Paul5388
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 295
| Posted 9/6/2003 7:03 AM (GMT -6) | | Laika,
quote:
God's knowlege of Jacob prior to Jacob's conception and development in the womb.
Romans 9.12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Ge 25:22 And the children struggled together within her; and she said, If it be so, why am I thus? And she went to enquire of the LORD.
Ge 25:23 And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.
It sure looks like prior knowledge to me, since they were still "within her" when all of this was told to Rebecca. | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 9/6/2003 11:29 AM (GMT -6) | | I don’t see anything in this passage that comes close to yielding anything for the foreknowledge/determinism debate for either side.
1 God is talking about the nation, not the individual, Jacob. So references to birth and womb are necessary metaphorical, not literal.
2. The "you" of v. 8 is the entire nation, not the historical individual "Jacob", and the entire point seems to be rehearsing how entrenched the nation has always been. They've never listened. Given this, I don't think the reference to "from the womb" is more than a poetic expression meaning "for your entire lifetime." My second daughter has always been adventurous and ready to leave. The other day I told her, "You came out of the womb with a suitcase in your hand ready to leave us." Come on guys, have some imagination here. To say somebody has been doing something or been a certain sort of person "from the womb" is to say they've always been doing it, always been like that, that it's there nature to do and be that.
3. Why hasn't anybody noticed just what it is that God knows about the nation "from the womb"? Hmmm? It's right there. God knows that from the womb "you were called a rebell." Called a rebel by whom? By others of course. All God is saying is that he knows what everybody else knows about Israel, that .they've rebelled from the get-go. They've always disobeyed and forsook God. In any event, how in the world can willful rebellion be attributed to an unborn fetus? Where's your imagine guys?
4. True, "from the womb" in Isa. 44.2, 24 appears to describe God's "forming" Israel before their birth as a nation. But this has nothing to do with the notions of foreknowledge and determination theologians love to beat around. It's simply a declaration that God was involved in the life of the people before the people became a "nation." And this comes more from the verb "to form" than from the mere expression "from the womb" I should think. In 46.3, for example ("all the remnant of the house of Israel, which are borne by me from the belly, which are carried from the womb"), the verbs seem to suggest God's involvment in sustaining and carrying for since they became a nation.
Tom  | | Back to Top | | |
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Paul5388
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 295
| Posted 9/6/2003 1:18 PM (GMT -6) | | Tom,
OTOH, I don't see anything more than a description similar to the description of the priesthood in Hebrews. Is it a metaphor that Levi, and the priesthood that came from Levi, was in the loins of Abraham when Abraham gave tithes? In the same manner, Israel was literally in the womb in the form of Jacob. The nation cannot be disassociated from Jacob and his beginnings.
It does show God's foreknowledge of the character and accomplishments of Jacob and Israel, whether it is admitted or not. Ge 25:23 And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger. certainly isn't a guess based on the genetic makeup of the two children. | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 9/6/2003 2:08 PM (GMT -6) | | Paul: In the same manner, Israel was literally in the womb in the form of Jacob. The nation cannot be disassociated from Jacob and his beginnings.
Tom: There’s no point in disassociating the two or in taking the association any farther than it actually goes. The nation is called Jacob (and Israel) on account of Jacob's being father of the tribes. There’s nothing here that explains by way of foreknowledge the rebellion of the nation Isaiah addresses.
Yes, two nations were in Rebekka's womb. And God freely chose which was which. But election itself is not Isaiah's point or concern. It is rather Israel's persistent rebellion, rebellion from the days God began dealing with the people forming them into a nation throughout the days of their national existence. yxboom's question, as I understood it, regarded v. 8 and was, "How does God declare Jacob pre-birth a rebel?" But the text doesn't say God declares Jacob a pre-birth rebel. The text says God knows that "Jacob [the nation] was [or "has been"--a history is assumed] called a rebell from the womb." There's no pre-birth anything going on in THIS passage.
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
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Laika
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 9/7/2003 1:08 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Paul5388
Laika,
quote:
God's knowlege of Jacob prior to Jacob's conception and development in the womb.
Romans 9.12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Ge 25:22 And the children struggled together within her; and she said, If it be so, why am I thus? And she went to enquire of the LORD.
Ge 25:23 And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.
It sure looks like prior knowledge to me, since they were still "within her" when all of this was told to Rebecca.
God made His choice of which nation would produce the Messiah while the twins were in the womb, which was post-conception.
God chose the nation that would spring from Jacob to be the nation through whom Christ would come. Individuals could opt out of this covenant group like Aachan did and individuals could join themselves to this covenant group as Rahab did. Their own individual salvation or damnation came about through their own individual choices.
In Romans 9, when Paul is talking about his brethren, the nation of Israel, he goes back to the two individuals who represent nations to make his point about how God molds nations such as a potter does pots on a wheel.
"For God is not willing that any should perish"
inside you the time moves and she don't fade
the ghost in you she don't fade | | Back to Top | | |
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Paul5388
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 295
| Posted 9/7/2003 6:56 PM (GMT -6) | | Laika,
Post conception? Even though it is nice to hear that it wasn't after birth, the decision is your assumption based on when it was revealed, not necessarily when it was decided. There is no indication when the decision was made, so, it could have been before the foundation of the earth for all we know. | | Back to Top | | |
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