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cpoteet
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2004
Total Posts : 35
| Posted 12/13/2004 2:48 AM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
Why should spiritual death mean that we no longer have LFW? [...] It is because of our LFW that we even have the possibility of choosing sin and therefore spiritual death. But being dead towards God doesn't mean we can't continue choosing.
If you are in a state of "spiritual death" then you by defintion (that is referring to the reformed point of Total Depravity) cannot choose God and therefore do not truly have LFW. If you truly have LFW than you can never say that you are "spiritually dead," because it's not a persistent death reliant only upon the Holy Spirit for regeneration.
The Westminster Confession of Faith, Chapter IX (Of Free Will)
III. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation:(d) so as, a natural man, being altogether averse from that good,(e) and dead in sin,(f) is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.(g)
(d) Rom. 5:6; Rom 8:7; John 15:5.
(e) Rom. 3:10, 12.
(f) Eph. 2:1, 5; Col. 2:13.
(g) John 6:44, 65; Eph. 2:2, 3, 4, 5; I Cor. 2:14; Titus 3:3, 4, 5.
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God can't choose and me choose at the same time - they're mutually exclusive events.
Yea, I'm not Arminian. God chooses us, but even though God secures His election in us, we still accept the Gospel willingly (as is commanded in the Bible, cf. Isaiah 55:6-7, Luke 11:9-10, Revelation 3:20).
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Both parts make sense [determined = someone else chooses; free-will = I choose], but can't happen at exactly the same time
Why not?
Chapter IX (Of Free Will)
I. God hath endued the will of man with that natural liberty, that is neither forced, nor by any absolute necessity of nature determined to good or evil.(a)
(a) Matt. 17:12; James 1:14; Deut. 30:19.
II. Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom and power to will and to do that which was good, and well pleasing to God;(b) but yet, mutably, so that he might fall from it.(c)
(b) Eccles. 7:29; Gen. 1:26.
(c) Gen. 2:16, 17; Gen. 3:6.
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That responsibility lands squarely at the door of the executioner.
By trying to disprove what I said, you solidified what I said. Yes, we (the exectioner) are responsible, and God allows such an action to happen. The issue is that for God to not be author of that evil, we must be endowed with some measure of freedom (James 1:14), but it is not Libertarian because the executioner could not have chosen otherwise.
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There wasn't a possibility of Jesus dying for nobody because they'd already been several thousand years of believers that Jesus needed to die for too! He died for Moses, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David etc. Their sins needed to be properly dealt with, not just with types and shadows. It's possible that nobody in the rest of history would choose Jesus after that point, but it's rather a statistical improbability! It also hasn't happened that way...
Well, Abram was justified by faith in God before Christ's death (Genesis 15:16,Romans 4:1-9). Also, as hypothetical as OT is, we must seriously engage the soteriological implications of OT. The fact is that atonement could've ended there; thereby annuling the New Testament.
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I don't understand your quotation of Psalm 139, as it's not talking about the foreordination of the Fall.
It's not meant to be a direct text for the fall, it's a passage about God's omniscence.
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I've never thought about whether it's inconsistent with God's holiness, only why on earth would God want to foreordain the fall in the first place? He wants a creation that enters into free and loving relationship with him! He's not going to engineer the destruction of his plans! I think it's just a bit inconsistent with God's character in general.
If He foreordains the fall and thereby foreordains election than by no means is His holiness in question. Whether you're supra/infralapsarianist (or Arminian/Amyrauldian){2} the eternal decrees of God allow for both the fall and some degree of eternal election. This therey justifies His wrath, and magnifies His grace, mercy, and love.
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When the Trinity were planning on making creation, it was Jesus who said that he would go and die should man decide to reject God.
So, you admit there is omniscence in God's decree? Also, do you think Jesus raised His hand and said, "oowww, pick me to go down and suffer a death and feel your wrath?" No, God the Father chose a people, Christ went down (by the decree of the Father) to save those chosen people, and the Holy Spirit works to call those people (sheep) home. Does the Trinity work so congruently in OT?
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God's not ignorant, in fact he 'over-knows' the future: He knows all the possibilities that will never happen. So when he takes a risk, he knows what he's letting himself in for.
"Over-knows?" I'm glad He knows what He's getting himself into before taking that "risk." I'm sorry, but I hope you realize how ludicrous this sounds.
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I think that choosing Mary was a risk. But it paid off!
Are you serious? Do all OT believe this? That Mary was "a risk?"
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When he asked the Lord 'why me?', the Lord said that he'd asked 5 others before him.
Can you back this with a source?
Where is Dr. Boyd at?
Grace,
Chris P.
{1} http://members.aol.com/RSICHURCH/wcf3.html
{2} http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/articles/sup_infr.htm
"To confess that God exists, and at the same time to deny that He has foreknowledge of future things, is the most manifest folly."
Augustine | | Back to Top | | |
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Lomman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2004
Total Posts : 14
| Posted 12/13/2004 6:05 AM (GMT -6) | | It's my understanding that the "death" spoken of in Ez 18 is referring to something yet future (eternal death).
Also, I think to be "dead in transgressions and sins" is just another way of saying one is in a state of condemnation (and thus certain to die eternally) as a result of being alienated from God because of our sins. Paul says that this death ends when we are "made alive together with Christ," and this happens when we are forgiven (and this state continues as long as we remain steadfast in our faith).
Colossians 1
13He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, 14in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins...
21 And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, 22 he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him, 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard,
Colossians 2
11In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. 13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.
Now see Eph. 2...Our being "dead in sins," "separatd from Christ" and "alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise" ended when we were "brought near by the blood of Christ." IOW, when we were forgiven (see Colossians above). And God forgives us when we repent and put our faith in his Son. So, it seems to me that we are "made alive together with Christ" only after we repent and belive, which means that to be "dead in sins" doesn't mean one cannot repent and believe, only that one has not yet been pardoned.
Sincerely,
Lomman
"He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to promote justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?" Micah 6:8
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borg
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 324
| Posted 12/13/2004 6:21 AM (GMT -6) | | Yeah, you're right, Jesus did have a funny way of expressing it didn't he JEE.
John 10:25-29
and so did Paul...
Eph 2:8, 9; Col 2:13 (He made alive, not you with LFW) cf. 1 Cor. 15:10.
I have trouble declaring two different definitions to death. Death is death; it leaves us incapable, unable, stagnant, motionless. I don't get how you can re-work the definition and pretend that death means something else. we cannot understand spiritual things in our natural state because we are spiritually dead. we cannot see Christ because of our spiritual state unless Christ CHOOSES to reveal Himself to us.
Lomann, you're going to have to show me that faith/repentance preceeds God's saving grace in order to have any foundamental point to argue from. I don't see that in Scripture.
"So it is a more glorious work of power to uphold a soul in a state of grace and holiness, and to carry it on till it is brought to glory, when there is so much sin remaining in the heart resisting, and Satan with all his might opposing, than it would have been to have kept manfrom falling at first, when Satan had nothing in man." Edwards | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 12/13/2004 10:58 AM (GMT -6) | | Here's what I wrote:
- Anthropomorphism is not the only way of handling it.
- As HEAVILY edited at the OT is, there is lots more possible.
- Its like a whole sub-thesis of the OT is that those who once received prophecy of un-reversable judgement, later (when edited in Babylon) received hope that God would do different than he had before. What was to be certain, later was possible. Time happened, and circumstance. Names not in the original writing show up in the editing -- this time appropriate to the revelation God was giving through his prophets (and those of the 'school' of those prophets). Consider the content of First Isaiah, Second Isaiah and Third Isaiah.
I'll just add that when looking back from OUR century, we might just see "changes of mind" where there is actually variety of message (as per the above paragraph.) Compare the various states of revision the OT went through. Compare the names identified with the promise, and how those names were substituted for. And look at WHY that was so.
-------------------------------------------------------
PS:
P. N. Tarazi has a great series on the OT: http://www.svspress.com/product_info.php?products_id=169
Volume I: Historical Traditions, Volume II: Prophetic Traditions, and Volume III: Psalms and Wisdom.
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borg
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 324
| Posted 12/13/2004 2:06 PM (GMT -6) | | JEE if you believe that only those who are Christ's hear His voice and follow Him, how does that square with LFW? Do you think there are truly people who don't believe because they are not Christ's sheep? I think word order is HUGE here; it's not, you are not my sheep, as if we can later become His sheep through believing. No rather it says they do not believe because they are not His sheep, which indicates that being His sheep precedes believing; couldn't this be taken as the formula: regeneration precededs faith?
If this perenial grace is what awakens all of us, to the point where we are not in a "dead" state but more of a sleepy state, why does Paul over-state his meaning? What practical point is there with something that is this important? Plus, I see distinctions in the Bible where it seems that if we are not "spiritually dead" then we are spiritually alive, transfered to the Kingdom of God (saved). It seems either we are dead, and do not have an inward calling by the Holy Ghost, or we are alive, have an inward calling by the Holy Ghost in which we will respond positively.
orphan child:
Q. 80. Can true believers be infallibly assured that they are in the estate of grace, and that they shall persevere therein unto salvation?
A. Such as truly believe in Christ, and endeavor to walk in all good conscience before him, may, without extraordinary revelation, by faith grounded upon the truth of God's promises, and by the Spirit enabling them to discern in themselves those graces to which the promises of life are made, and bearing witness with their spirits that they are children of God, be infallibly assured that they are in the estate of grace, and shall persevere therein unto salvation.
Q. 81. Are all true believers at all times assured of their present being in the estate of grace, and that they shall be saved?
A. Assurance of grace and salvation not being of the essence of faith, true believers may wait long before they obtain it; and, after the enjoyment thereof, may have it weakend and intermitted, through manifold distempers, sins, temptations, and desertions; yet are they never left without such a presence and support of the Spirit of God, as keeps them from sinking into utter despair.
we are saved totally based on free sovereign grace, therefore let no regenerated man boast that it was done by any meritious work, for grace would then, no longer be grace.
"So it is a more glorious work of power to uphold a soul in a state of grace and holiness, and to carry it on till it is brought to glory, when there is so much sin remaining in the heart resisting, and Satan with all his might opposing, than it would have been to have kept manfrom falling at first, when Satan had nothing in man." Edwards | | Back to Top | | |
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orphan child
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2004
Total Posts : 68
| Posted 12/13/2004 4:42 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by borg
Q. 80. Can true believers be infallibly assured that they are in the estate of grace, and that they shall persevere therein unto salvation?
A. Such as truly believe in Christ, and endeavor to walk in all good conscience before him, may, without extraordinary revelation, by faith grounded upon the truth of God's promises, and by the Spirit enabling them to discern in themselves those graces to which the promises of life are made, and bearing witness with their spirits that they are children of God, be infallibly assured that they are in the estate of grace, and shall persevere therein unto salvation.
Q. 81. Are all true believers at all times assured of their present being in the estate of grace, and that they shall be saved?
A. Assurance of grace and salvation not being of the essence of faith, true believers may wait long before they obtain it; and, after the enjoyment thereof, may have it weakend and intermitted, through manifold distempers, sins, temptations, and desertions; yet are they never left without such a presence and support of the Spirit of God, as keeps them from sinking into utter despair.
They're numbered?!? Did you pull them out of a sunday school book?
No more than Buddhists and Hindus and Mormons and Muslims and Animists and others can be assured that their "spirit" is leading them into truth in their holy books.
You say:
1. you can't know spiritual truth without God revealing it to you first
2. you think a "spirit" has revealed this to you
They say the same thing. Prove you're right and they're wrong.
You can't, natural sinful man that you are, completely blinded to truth as you aver.
You're deceiving yourself into believing you have been unilaterally regenerated and they haven't.
A natural, sinful man cannot know whether his internal gas is the true spirit revealing that he's entered a new, true, spiritual state.
I say it's just gas. You can't prove otherwise.
A blind man whose brain causes him hallucinations may think he's seeing but he really isn't, he has no external method of judging the veracity of it.
You claim to be TOTALLY blind to spiritual truth yet this is a spiritual truth in itself. A man TOTALLY blind to spiritual truth CANNOT know he's spiritually blind to truth and futhermore CAN NOT know if he's ever left that TOTALLY blind state.
You believe the bible? Hindus believe their vedas, big deal!
A spirit has revealed truth to you? A spirit revealed truth to Joseph Smith, big deal!
borg, stumbling around in his TOTALLY SPIRITUALLY DEAD state making claims he can't back up.....
borg: I was totally dead to things of the spirit. I ate a pizza with too much pepperoni and now I know God's truth revealed in the bible.
muslim: I was totally dead to things of the spirit. Then allah revealed his truth to me through Mohammed his prophet in the words of the Quran.
buddha: I was totally dead in my endless strivings until amida revealed the truth to me.....
These claims only work on me if I've accepted them as truth, before-hand.
illegitimate child (now orphaned) of Miss Manners (now deceased) | | Back to Top | | |
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borg
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 324
| Posted 12/13/2004 5:06 PM (GMT -6) | | "The heart is above all wicked and decietful above all things, And desperatley wicked; Who can know it? I, the Lord, search the heart, I test the mind, Even to give every man according to his ways, According to the fruit of his doings." Jeremiah 17:9
It is not up to me to judge the eternal destination of any man, it is Christ who judges. You ask why am I right and why are they wrong? In the eternal words of Van Til, "I believe in God because the Bible tells me to; I believe in the Bible because God tells me to," presuppositional apologetics. It comes down to faith my dear sir, and if you desire to question my faith, go right ahead. I can never prove to you that you are saved, but I do have faith that the Lord Jesus has saved me, that He did exist, that He did die on the cross, that He did ascend to the right hand of God, that He is going to judge the living and the dead. Is the Buddhist wrong? Yes. Why? Because he doesn't believe in Christ. Can I prove to him that he is wrong, according to my beliefs yes, according to his, no; but who is ever wrong with their own ideologies in their own mind? If he thinks he can have more pleasure and joy in seeking after Budah, let him; as for me, I know he's wrong.
I don't know if you are attempting to prove libertarian free will my lad, but if you are, this is a poor argument. For you say that you are saved because you made a "free choice" "uncoherced move of the will" to be saved. You declare that you are saved because you chose to "accept" this "gift" of God. You can be left to your futile thinking sir. For my assurance doesn't rest in the actions of any lowley human being, but upon the Divine Promises of Christ; that He has set me free. I do not claim to have "accepted" Christ of my own free will, rather I have put my stock in a God who breaks down the walls of rebellion, tears out my heart of stone and gives me a heart of stone and says, "You are MINE!" Of course, perhaps you don't claim to be an evangelical (I'm using the term losely) Christian, in which I case I rather pity you.
Above all, remember; I believe in God because the Bible tells me to, I believe in the Bible, because God tells me to.
"So it is a more glorious work of power to uphold a soul in a state of grace and holiness, and to carry it on till it is brought to glory, when there is so much sin remaining in the heart resisting, and Satan with all his might opposing, than it would have been to have kept manfrom falling at first, when Satan had nothing in man." Edwards | | Back to Top | | |
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borg
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 324
| Posted 12/13/2004 5:14 PM (GMT -6) | | Ah, perhaps you are more intelligent then I first thought. Imagine someone backing their own beliefs with circular reasoning. Is that what I did... oh yeah, of course I did. :)
And you yourself dear sir come across with that same sort of "presupposition". For you claim, "These claims only work on me if I've accepted them as truth, before-hand." Yes, that is most certianly true. I do not disagree with you on this point if I understand you correctly. But the only way you are going to accept them as true, is if you are Christ sheep; for sinners are not Christ's sheep because they do not believe.
JEE, not from all of eternity. More of a statement that they will be engrained in the minds of Reformers for all of eternity. Sorry, perhaps I should have defined the term "eternal" more clearly.
"So it is a more glorious work of power to uphold a soul in a state of grace and holiness, and to carry it on till it is brought to glory, when there is so much sin remaining in the heart resisting, and Satan with all his might opposing, than it would have been to have kept manfrom falling at first, when Satan had nothing in man." Edwards | | Back to Top | | |
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borg
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 324
| Posted 12/13/2004 5:34 PM (GMT -6) | | Orphan, I'm a little disappointed. It seems that you are attempting to string me along and get me to make some conclusion so that you can come sweeping in with your "stellar" argument and prove me wrong. I plead with you not to do this, but to rather make a point as to where you are going. The Muslim is wrong, the Mormon is wrong, the Budhist is wrong. Why are they wrong? Because they don't believe in the God of the Bible. Hypothetically speaking, could I be just as wrong as they are? Sure. Am I? I don't believe so. My faith has me convinced. And this "convincing" faith is not wrought within me, for it seems that the majority of time the person within me is warring against this faith. I hate that I am saved by grace alone through faith alone. I hate that my works of righteousness cannot save me. I hate that there is a God who threatens people with hell. And yet, the very things that I hate about Christianity, are the very things that cause me to believe.
Now you can sit there and debate all you want about how hypothetically I have just as wrong as the other world religions; but first you are going to have to overthrow my presuppositions; and secondly, if you don't make a conclusive argument then you are wasting my time. You can jump into the realm of "subjectivism" all you want and take the irrational rationalist approach with a duty to doubt all things, but trust me friend, this will do nothing but leave you running around like a chicken with it's head cut off (which you are more than welcome to attempt). My faith is not based on feeling, emotion, or any of the like that I see portrayed in many faiths of the world, but on the unchanging promises of Christ.
"So it is a more glorious work of power to uphold a soul in a state of grace and holiness, and to carry it on till it is brought to glory, when there is so much sin remaining in the heart resisting, and Satan with all his might opposing, than it would have been to have kept manfrom falling at first, when Satan had nothing in man." Edwards | | Back to Top | | |
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