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borg
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 324
| Posted 12/13/2004 5:55 PM (GMT -6) |   | "And he arose and came to his father. But when he was still a great way off, his father saw him and had compassion, and ran and fell on his neck and kissed him. And the son said to him, 'Father, I have sinned against heaven and in your sight, and am no longer worthy to be called your son.' But the father said to his servants, 'Bring out the best robe and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand and sandals on his feet. And bring the fatted calf here and kill it, and let us eat and be merry; for this my son was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.' And they began to be merry." (Luke 15:20-24)
First perhaps it is worth pointing out the other two parables fond within this chapter. It is the parable of the lost sheep and the parable of the lost coin. In these two scenarios it is God who finds what was lost, and the thing lost was His to begin with. The sheep belonged to the shepherd's fold, the coin belonged to women's purse. Neither the sheep nor the coin are praised in either parable as to having been found. It is the work of God (or Christ) that seems to be praised in both preceding parables.
Now looking more intently at the parable of the lost son, what great truth value can we draw from this parable? Keeping in line with the two Jesus spoke before this one, can we assume that what the central focus of the parable is going to be the work of God and not of man. I think so. For as you will see, the son was not said to be found when he saw his father. The son was not said to have been found when he embraced his father. Rather, it seems that the father said his son was found after he had been restored; or after he had been clothed in the father's finest robe, the signet rign given to him, and sandals put on his feet. It seems to me, to be the father's action that is praised in this parable. Just as Christ clothes us with His glory and garments as we see in the visual image in Zechariah and as we see in 1 Corinthians 1:30 where it is Christ who is our righteousness, sanctification, etc. It is Christ's work, who is the father in this parable, who is to be praised. The son is not praised for returning to the father at least I don't think so.
"So it is a more glorious work of power to uphold a soul in a state of grace and holiness, and to carry it on till it is brought to glory, when there is so much sin remaining in the heart resisting, and Satan with all his might opposing, than it would have been to have kept manfrom falling at first, when Satan had nothing in man." Edwards | | Back to Top | | |
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JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 12/13/2004 8:50 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by borg
JEE: if the son isn't praised for his coming to the father, then why do we have to assume that his spiritual dead state wasn't a state of utter helplessness and complete unable to do anything on his own accord?
The story nowhere indicates the son was unable to choose to return to his father; in fact, precisely the opposite is revealed in this parable. What was the case, as is true with all unrepentant sinners, is that the son was unwilling to return to his father prior to finally choosing to do so. ("I will arise and return to my father's house...")
That said, no credit can ever possibly accrue for simply doing what one ought. As the son himself knew (and stated), he was completely at the mercy of his father when he returned to where he should never have left (his father's house). Indeed, the son said of himself that he was not worthy to be called his father's son any longer, but was willing to be made a slave.
Again, the whole notion of "merit" for simply doing what one ought is perfectly nonsensical. I honestly don't get why Calvinists seem to assume that if we have any choice in the matter, we somehow deserve credit for merely choosing what we SHOULD have. As if one earn extra credit for their repentance and faith. All men are obligated to do right.
John
http://revivaltheology.net | | Back to Top | | |
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cpoteet
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2004
Total Posts : 35
| Posted 12/14/2004 2:09 AM (GMT -6) | | (Borg: hold strong, you have some solid conclusions.)
quote:
Again, the whole notion of "merit" for simply doing what one ought is perfectly nonsensical. I honestly don't get why Calvinists seem to assume that if we have any choice in the matter, we somehow deserve credit for merely choosing what we SHOULD have. As if one earn extra credit for their repentance and faith. All men are obligated to do right.
Calvinists hold no such belief. I have no idea where you got that from; in fact, you have misconstrued the very core of Calvinism (the magnification of God's grace due to our inability to choose God).
“In efficacious grace we are not merely passive, nor yet does God do some, and we do the rest. But God does all, and we do all. God produces all, and we act all. For that is what produces, viz., our own acts. God is the only proper author and fountain; we only are the proper actors. We are, in different respects, wholly passive, and wholly active.
“In the Scriptures the same things are represented as from God and from us. God is said to convert, and men are said to convert and turn. God makes a new heart, and we are commanded to circumcise our own hearts; not merely because we must use the means in order to the effect, but the effect itself is our act and our duty. These things are agreeable to that text, ‘God worketh in you both to will and to do.’ (Philippians 2:13)…
“There is a necessary connection between divine grace and human act, but it is a question of moral, not natural, necessity. Rather than being an external force which moves man’s faith as a lifeless object, grace is the divine gift which operates within the living, willing human subject.” —Jonathan Edwards, Works of President Edwards, Volume 2 (reprint of the Worcester Edition), 580. Quoted in Reformation and Revival Magazine, Spring 2003, p. 24
Verses on spiritual death (and the necessity of God's efficacious grace):
We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death.
1 John 3:14
When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,
Colossians 2:13
And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
Ephesians 2:1-10
Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."
John 3:3
"When I passed by you and saw you squirming in your blood, I said to you while you were in your blood, 'Live!' Yes, I said to you while you were in your blood, 'Live!'
Ezekiel 16:6
And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."
John 6:65
...to name a few.
"If any man doth ascribe of salvation, even the very least, to the free will of man, he knoweth nothing of grace, and he hath not learnt Jesus Christ aright."
Martin Luther
"Free will carried many a soul to hell, but never a soul to heaven."
C.H. Spurgeon
"The will is not destroyed but rather repaired by grace."
John Calvin
"To confess that God exists, and at the same time to deny that He has foreknowledge of future things, is the most manifest folly."
Augustine | | Back to Top | | |
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orphan child
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2004
Total Posts : 68
| Posted 12/14/2004 2:29 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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Gerry Attrick
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 114
| Posted 12/14/2004 2:47 AM (GMT -6) | | Orphan Child, your dialog with Borg reminds me of a dialog narrated for us in John 9.
“How then were your eyes opened?” they demanded.
11 He replied, “The man they call Jesus made some mud and put it on my eyes. He told me to go to Siloam and wash. So I went and washed, and then I could see.”
12 “Where is this man?” they asked him.
“I don’t know,” he said.
A second time they summoned the man who had been blind. “Give glory to God,” they said. “We know this man is a sinner.”
25 He replied, “Whether he is a sinner or not, I don’t know. One thing I do know. I was blind but now I see!”
26 Then they asked him, “What did he do to you? How did he open your eyes?”
27 He answered, “I have told you already and you did not listen. Why do you want to hear it again? Do you want to become his disciples, too?”
28 Then they hurled insults at him and said, “You are this fellow’s disciple! We are disciples of Moses! 29 We know that God spoke to Moses, but as for this fellow, we don’t even know where he comes from.”
30 The man answered, “Now that is remarkable! You don’t know where he comes from, yet he opened my eyes. 31 We know that God does not listen to sinners. He listens to the godly man who does his will. 32 Nobody has ever heard of opening the eyes of a man born blind. 33 If this man were not from God, he could do nothing.”
34 To this they replied, “You were steeped in sin at birth; how dare you lecture us!” And they threw him out.
Let anyone who has ears to hear, hear, and let anyone who has eyes to see, see!
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 12/14/2004 3:36 AM (GMT -6) | |
quote:
Predestination isn't taught in the bible and isn't common knowlege or intuitive.
Romans 8:
28 Now we are aware that God is working all together for the good of those who are loving God, who are called according to the purpose
29 that, whom He foreknew, He designates beforehand, also, to be conformed to the image of His Son, for Him to be Firstborn among many brethren.
30 Now whom He designates beforehand, these He calls also, and whom He calls, these He justifies also; now whom He justifies, these He glorifies also.
His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. | | Back to Top | | |
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Gerry Attrick
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 114
| Posted 12/14/2004 4:06 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by orphan child
Except none of you has given an "articulation", just an "I know".
As subjective as the Kalvin Konsciousness...
Hmmmmm! I think Borg is saying, "One thing I do know. Formerly I was dead in my sins, but now I am alive unto God."
You call it "circular reasoning." Scripture speaks of it is resurrection from the dead. How can one who knew not at the time that he was dead in his sins articulate for you the miraculous work of God in Christ Jesus that brought him forth from death into life other than to say something akin to what the man born blind had to say? "Formerly I was dead in my sins, having no sense that I was dead, but now I am alive unto God." If Borg could explain the workings of his own resurrection from the dead, then, I suppose that he could also explain the workings of Christ's resurrection from the dead.
Do you want to know why Borg, when he was dead in his sins, did not believe, why he did not hear, why he did not see? Here is the answer Jesus gives: "If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me? He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God" (John 8:46-47). Do you want to know why Borg, when he was dead in his sins, did not believe, why he did not hear, why he did not see, why he did not obey the voice of the Son of God? Here is the answer Jesus gives: "The miracles I do in my Father’s name speak for me, but you do not believe because you are not my sheep" (John 10:25-26).
The belief of which Borg is speaking is not irrational, as you seem to suppose. On the other hand, the belief of which Borg is speaking is not rationalistic, as if it can be fully scrutinized in the laboratory of human investigation, inquiry, and assessment to determine its rational or reasonable warrants and legitimacy. Such is not the belief God breaths into his children by his revelatory grace in conjunction with his revelatory Word, namely the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. | | Back to Top | | |
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orphan child
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2004
Total Posts : 68
| Posted 12/14/2004 4:15 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Gerry Attrick
quote:
Originally posted by orphan child
Except none of you has given an "articulation", just an "I know".
As subjective as the Kalvin Konsciousness...
Hmmmmm! I think Borg is saying, "One thing I do know. Formerly I was dead in my sins, but now I am alive unto God."
You call it "circular reasoning."
borg admitted it was circular reasoning:
"Imagine someone backing their own beliefs with circular reasoning. Is that what I did... oh yeah, of course I did."
You have no way of knowing whether your belief is true or not because you've rejected the use of any knowlege or understanding.
You presuppose the bible is God's truth, presuppose that as natural men you cannot understand any spiritual truth (which is a spiritual truth itself!  ), and presuppose that you are one of the "elect".
You have no more objective basis than any Mormon, Buddhist, Muslim, Hindu, Animist, Amway salesman.
borg:
quote:
In the eternal words of Van Til, "I believe in God because the Bible tells me to; I believe in the Bible because God tells me to," presuppositional apologetics.
illegitimate child (now orphaned) of Miss Manners (now deceased) | | Back to Top | | |
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Gerry Attrick
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 114
| Posted 12/14/2004 4:21 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
borg admitted it was circular reasoning:
"Imagine someone backing their own beliefs with circular reasoning. Is that what I did... oh yeah, of course I did."
Borg should not have admitted to "circular reasoning." I do not endorse "circular reasoning," nor does Jesus. The reasoning that Jesus describes, and I follow him in this, is "right reasoning," reasoning that is set right by the resurrection power of God in Christ Jesus when he transforms us from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of light.
This is what Jesus speaks of in this portion from my previous note:
Do you want to know why Borg, when he was dead in his sins, did not believe, why he did not hear, why he did not see? Here is the answer Jesus gives: "If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me? He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God" (John 8:46-47). Do you want to know why Borg, when he was dead in his sins, did not believe, why he did not hear, why he did not see, why he did not obey the voice of the Son of God? Here is the answer Jesus gives: "The miracles I do in my Father’s name speak for me, but you do not believe because you are not my sheep" (John 10:25-26).
So Borg was too quick to admit to circular reasoning. Deal with Jesus' reasoning! | | Back to Top | | |
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