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Gerry Attrick
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 114
| Posted 12/14/2004 4:47 AM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
Originally posted by orphan child
Gerry: I am saved, therefore I know.
Kalvin Konsciousness: I chant, therefore I am.
The only thing circular in this conversation is your contribution to it. You keep saying the same thing over and over and over and over, without advancing the discussion by addressing what is actually being said. Apart from you getting out of your loop, there is not real conversation. 
Treadmills are for gerbils. 
P.S. What does the 5388 mean in your post, in Gerry 5388? | | Back to Top | | |
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cpoteet
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2004
Total Posts : 35
| Posted 12/14/2004 4:49 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Those who are loving God is a volitional verb in the 'present progressive'* tense.
God is working with those who are committed to working with Him, which TOTALLY destroys your 'God working unilaterally' belief.
What version of the Bible are you reading? The Message?
ESV
And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
Romans 8:28-30
NASV
And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
Romans 8:28-30
quote:
But you haven't proved what you're quoting is spiritual truth.
And if I accept your premise, that you were totally spiritually dead unable to discern ANY spiritual truth, then I have to not only reject your statements about scripture as truth but your initial premise as well.
What? I haven't proved what I'm quoting is spiritual truth? Remember, when we pass from death unto life (cf. the verses I mentioned) we then have the Holy Spirit for discernment of spiritual truth.
[wondering about orphan child]
"To confess that God exists, and at the same time to deny that He has foreknowledge of future things, is the most manifest folly."
Augustine | | Back to Top | | |
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Gerry Attrick
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 114
| Posted 12/14/2004 5:07 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
belief ex nihilio has no support
Who has argued for belief ex nihilo? Not I!
P.S. The word is nihilo | | Back to Top | | |
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Gerry Attrick
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 114
| Posted 12/14/2004 5:22 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Then why are you on this thread?
I'm arguing with people who have no basis for their belief.
They "believe because they are saved".
Please excuse me, if you would! I did not realize that "circular reasoning" was the thread topic. By the looks of it, the thread seems more along the lines of "Orphan Child's misrepresentation of others' beliefs." Please forgive my oversight!
I'll go, then. | | Back to Top | | |
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orphan child
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2004
Total Posts : 68
| Posted 12/14/2004 6:24 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
Orphan-
Why do you choose to ignore verse 30 in the context of Romans 8...
30 Now whom He designates beforehand, these He calls also, and whom He calls, these He justifies also; now whom He justifies, these He glorifies also.
The context is, He's talking of those who are "in Jesus":
Romans 8:
1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
those who walk according the spirit and set their minds (volitional verb alert!) on things of the spirit, verses 4, 5
for those who live and are being led by the spirit (volitional verb alert!) , verses 13, 14
for those who love God (volitional verb alert!), verse 28
Note: the Spirit doesn't do the work, it HELPS, verse 26.
Our predestination and election are "in Christ"
Ephesians 1:4 "He chose us in Him"
If you're in Him (Romans 10:9,10), then you're part of the elect.
Unlike you, we have a method for becoming "in Christ", confession and belief, Romans 10:9, 10
Our election is "in Him", our calling is "in Him", our glorification is "in Him".
By your definition of election, arbitrary, mysterious, totally unilateral, you have NO way of knowing if you're elect or not.
illegitimate child (now orphaned) of Miss Manners (now deceased) | | Back to Top | | |
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borg
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 324
| Posted 12/14/2004 7:02 AM (GMT -6) | | Orphan: I appreciate this civilized... nm.
What makes you think that those verbs within the context of Romans 8 are volition verbs? I know some Greek, but a great scholar like you, I would be interested in learning from.
Secondly, do you know anything of your presuppositional apologetics or Reformed Epistemology? Try reading up on some of that, and then we'll talk about my "circular reasoning". You have also left my question hanging, what does Total Depravity mean?
"So it is a more glorious work of power to uphold a soul in a state of grace and holiness, and to carry it on till it is brought to glory, when there is so much sin remaining in the heart resisting, and Satan with all his might opposing, than it would have been to have kept manfrom falling at first, when Satan had nothing in man." Edwards | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 12/14/2004 7:14 AM (GMT -6) | | Presuppositional apologetics:
Presupposition: I'm right. You're wrong.
OK, now let's dialogue.
Tom
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orphan child
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2004
Total Posts : 68
| Posted 12/14/2004 7:19 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by borg
Orphan: I appreciate this civilized... nm.
What makes you think that those verbs within the context of Romans 8 are volition verbs?
"those who set their minds"? Have you NOT studied any languages?
set
v. set, set·ting, sets
v. tr.
To put in a specified position; place: set a book on a table.
To put into a specified state: set the prisoner at liberty.
To put into a stable position: set the fence post into a bed of concrete.
To fix firmly or in an immobile manner: He set his jaw and concentrated on flying the plane through the storm.
To restore to a proper and normal state when dislocated or broken: set a broken arm.
To adjust for proper functioning.
To adjust (a saw) by deflecting the teeth.
Nautical. To spread open to the wind: set the sails.
To adjust according to a standard.
To adjust (an instrument or device) to a specific point or calibration: set an alarm clock.
To arrange properly for use: set a place for a dinner guest; set a table.
To apply equipment, such as curlers and clips, to (hair) in order to style.
Printing.
To arrange (type) into words and sentences preparatory to printing; compose.
To transpose into type.
Music.
To compose (music) to fit a given text.
To write (words) to fit a given melodic line.
To arrange scenery on (a theater stage).
To prescribe the unfolding of (a drama or narrative, for instance) in a specific place: a play that is set in Venice.
To prescribe or establish: set a precedent.
To prescribe as a time for: set June 6 as the day of the invasion.
To detail or assign (someone) to a particular duty, service, or station: set the child to cleaning the closets; set guards around the perimeter.
To incite to hostile action: a war that set families against one another.
To establish as the highest level of performance: set a world aviation record.
To establish as a model: A parent must set a good example for the children.
To put in a mounting; mount: set an emerald in a pendant.
To apply jewels to; stud: a tiara that was set with diamonds.
To cause to sit.
To put (a hen) on eggs for the purpose of hatching them.
To put (eggs) beneath a hen or in an incubator.
Sports. To position (oneself) in such a way as to be ready to start running a race.
Sports. To pass (a volleyball), usually with the fingertips, in an arc close to the net so that a teammate can drive it over the net.
To value or regard something at the rate of: She sets a great deal by good nutrition.
To fix at a given amount: The judge set bail for the defendant at $50,000.
To make as an estimate of worth: We set a high value on human life.
To point to the location of (game) by holding a fixed attitude. Used of a hunting dog.
Botany. To produce, as after pollination: set seed.
To prepare (a trap) for catching prey.
To fix (a hook) firmly into a fish's jaw.
quote:
what does Total Depravity mean?
"Total Depravity" is not in scripture. Romans 1, alone, shoots it down.
illegitimate child (now orphaned) of Miss Manners (now deceased) | | Back to Top | | |
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Gerry Attrick
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 114
| Posted 12/14/2004 8:22 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
Orphan-
The idea behind the greek word phroneo is not to "set your own mind" but to be lead by the opinion of another. This fits the context of Romans 8. A person is either lead by the flesh or lead by the spirit of God. A person is either "in accord" with the flesh or "in accord" with the spirit of God.
With your permission, Orphan Child, may I enter into this conversation just long enough to offer a correction to Lock?
Thank you.
Lock, consider carefully what the Apostle Paul says in the following verses in Romans 8:5-8.
For those who live according to the flesh think on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit think on the things of the Spirit. For the mindset of the flesh terminates in death, but the mindset of the Spirit results in life and peace. For the mindset of the flesh is at enmity with God, for it is not subject to the Law of God, neither is it able to be. And those who are in the flesh are not able to please God.
Take note of the bolded words. These two words are active voice verbs. This means that the Apostle Paul represents human beings who live according to the flesh as actively engaged in the act of thinking upon the things of the flesh. Likewise, Paul represents human beings who live according to the Spirit as actively engaged in the act of thinking upon the things of the flesh.
The underlined words, on the otherhand, are not verbs at all but nouns. They depict a posture or position, a mindset.
Now, for Orphan Child, your own circular reasoning is showing.
You assume libertarian freewill without demonstration, and then you argue your case on that assumption. Thus, if human beings are involved in the act of "setting the mind" upon the flesh or upon the Spirit, you reason that God cannot be active in this human act. You do this when you say, "Unlike you, we have a method for becoming 'in Christ', confession and belief, Romans 10:9, 10." You make the fatal mistake of assuming that Calvinists believe that if God is the one who makes us alive by breathing life into us (giving us faith) who were formerly dead in our sins, that Calvinists necessarily believe that humans are passive and inactive in the matter of believing in Jesus Christ in order that they might be saved.
Thus, while you accuse others of circular reasoning, you do two things. First, you misrepresent the beliefs of Calvinists, as if they do not insist upon the necessity of confession with the mouth and believing with the heart in order that they might be saved (Rom 10:9-10). Second, without any demonstration of biblical warrant, you simply assume that libertarian freewill is the right and only reasonable view. 
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Gerry Attrick
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 114
| Posted 12/14/2004 8:46 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by orphan child
quote:
Originally posted by Gerry Attrick
You assume libertarian freewill without demonstration.
Everything I do in life involves my libertarian free will. I don't need a demonstration of it.
The burden of proof is on those who freely and willfully argue against libertarian free will. For starters, they contradict themselves by arguing at all.
As Dorothy Sayers said, 'a common person knows that a cat is a cat, but it takes much education to believe that a cat isn't a cat'.
Oh! Now I understand. In the matter under discussion, you are not capable of committing the logical fallacy of "begging the question" (assuming as true the very thing that needs to be demonstrated as true). Evidently, only those against whom you argue of capable of such a commission in this discussion.
While you demand from the Calvinist the reason and warrant of one's belief in compatibilism, you assume that belief in libertarian freewill is utterly unassailable, so much so, that you simply assert libertarian freewill as true and offer no biblical warrant for your assertion.
How can anyone possible carry on a conversation with you about these matters? It's really quite pointless, isn't it?
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