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Gerry Attrick
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 114
| Posted 12/14/2004 8:53 AM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
Originally posted by lock
quote:
Likewise, Paul represents human beings who live according to the Spirit as actively engaged in the act of thinking upon the things of the flesh.
Gerry-
If here you meant to say thinking upon the things of the spirit, then we agree and maybe I my wording in my last post was confusing. It is a matter of disposition (flesh or spirit).
Indeed, it is a matter of disposition, but even "those who live according to the flesh" actively set their minds upon the things of the flesh. Furthermore, "those who live according to the Spirit" actively set their minds upon the things of the Spirit. My point is that humans are not passive pawns of forces greater than themselves. Humans are actively engaged in their own decisions and actions. Their actions are compatible with God's actions. | | Back to Top | | |
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orphan child
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2004
Total Posts : 68
| Posted 12/14/2004 8:54 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Gerry Attrick
quote:
Originally posted by orphan child
quote:
Originally posted by Gerry Attrick
You assume libertarian freewill without demonstration.
Everything I do in life involves my libertarian free will. I don't need a demonstration of it.
The burden of proof is on those who freely and willfully argue against libertarian free will. For starters, they contradict themselves by arguing at all.
As Dorothy Sayers said, 'a common person knows that a cat is a cat, but it takes much education to believe that a cat isn't a cat'.
Oh! Now I understand. In the matter under discussion, you are not capable of committing the logical fallacy of "begging the question" (assuming as true the very thing that needs to be demonstrated as true). Evidently, only those against whom you argue of capable of such a commission in this discussion.
While you demand from the Calvinist the reason and warrant of one's belief in compatibilism, you assume that belief in libertarian freewill is utterly unassailable, so much so, that you simply assert libertarian freewill as true and offer no biblical warrant for your assertion.
How can anyone possible carry on a conversation with you about these matters? It's really quite pointless, isn't it?
Scripture doesn't explain "how babies are made". Why not?
That which is obvious, doesn't need explanation.
If LFW is not true, why are you arguing with me? God eternally decreed this, yet you argue against it.
Like Hindus who don't believe in reality yet stop at red lights, so are calvinists who don't believe in something they exercise every day.
Like Adam and Eve, we have choices to make and the ability to make them.
calvinists have failed to willfully and freely demonstrate to me they don't have the ability to freely will..... LMAO
illegitimate child (now orphaned) of Miss Manners (now deceased) | | Back to Top | | |
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borg
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 324
| Posted 12/14/2004 8:55 AM (GMT -6) | | Orphan, my dear sir, you have left my question unanswered. I do not care if you do not believe Total Depravity is tought in Scripture. I want to know why you define Total Depravity as.
And no, I haven't studied much of any language and so I was hoping to learn by your most excellent knack for such things. Thank you for taking the time to be such a gracious teacher.
And thridly kind sir, I ask why we wouldn't be able to argue about LFW if we did not possess it. In my mind, and as you have so graciously shown that I could be wrong (which I will always admitt that there is a great chance for my error), it seems plausible that LFW could be a lie from Satan. You cannot prove to me that your choices are based on LFW; and if you think so, I defy you to prove me.
Fianlly, and this is rather an intriguing question, why am I to believe that this so called LFW is a good gift from God. Many a men smarter than myself have often said that the greatest punishment that God could give a person, is to leave him to his so called free will. Prove to me that LFW is a good thing to have.
"So it is a more glorious work of power to uphold a soul in a state of grace and holiness, and to carry it on till it is brought to glory, when there is so much sin remaining in the heart resisting, and Satan with all his might opposing, than it would have been to have kept manfrom falling at first, when Satan had nothing in man." Edwards | | Back to Top | | |
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borg
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 324
| Posted 12/14/2004 9:00 AM (GMT -6) | | You are wrong Orphan. Calvinists are not like Hindus. We acknowledge our "free will" every day, because we sin every day. Many a free will hath brought a man to hell, but NEVER to heaven.
Like Adam and Eve we have choices to make everyday, UNLIKE Adam and Eve we do not have the liberty to make those decsions.
We have the ability to freely will my friend. This is seen every time we sin. Do you not understand some of the most fundamental points of the Reformed faith? It is our free will that corrupts us, it is our free will that sends us to hell, it is the GRACE of God that saves us.
"So it is a more glorious work of power to uphold a soul in a state of grace and holiness, and to carry it on till it is brought to glory, when there is so much sin remaining in the heart resisting, and Satan with all his might opposing, than it would have been to have kept manfrom falling at first, when Satan had nothing in man." Edwards | | Back to Top | | |
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orphan child
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2004
Total Posts : 68
| Posted 12/14/2004 9:01 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by borg
Orphan, my dear sir, you have left my question unanswered. I do not care if you do not believe Total Depravity is tought in Scripture. I want to know why you define Total Depravity as.
I define it as yet another unsupportable calvinist doctrine.
quote:
Many a men smarter than myself have often said that the greatest punishment that God could give a person, is to leave him to his so called free will. Prove to me that LFW is a good thing to have.
Others would see those same men as not smart.
Why do you think they're smart and others don't?
You willfully think they're smart, others willfully think they're not smart.
Matthew 23:37, “Oh Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that killeth the prophets, and stoneth them that are sent unto her! How oft would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!”
God would, they would not.
Case closed.
illegitimate child (now orphaned) of Miss Manners (now deceased) | | Back to Top | | |
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Gerry Attrick
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 114
| Posted 12/14/2004 9:04 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by orphan child
Animals, not possessing LFW, can't comprehend what they lack.
If we didn't possess LFW, we wouldn't be arguing about it, either.
HTH
No, it doesn't help. Here is why. The difference between humans and animals is not that one possesses libertarian freewill and the other does not. The difference is that one is made in the image and likeness of God. Thus, they have comprehension. The other is not made in the image and likeness of God. Thus, they do not reason.
Since you and I are both made in God's image and likeness, honor that God-likeness in both you and me by reasoning that demonstrates that your belief that humans bear libertarian freewill is warranted by Scripture rather than simply assuming that your belief is right and true and then mocking those who don't agree with you but call for you to demonstrate your belief with reasoned arguments. If you would rather simply assume that your belief is right and true, then you may want to consider the threaded discussion that is reserved for that very purpose (http://www.christusvictorministries.org/gbfront/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3900), as Tom states so well, "The point is to discuss family-related issues without having to defend the basic claim that the future is open, that libertarian free will exists, etc." | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 12/14/2004 9:05 AM (GMT -6) | | borg: Calvinists are not like Hindus.
Tom: This whole thread is spinning out of control. It's a comic show now. I don't mean to pick on borg's statement alone. It's just indicative of the past few pages. I can't stop laughing long enough to p-p-p-p-post!
Thanks for keeping me smiling everybody.
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
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Gerry Attrick
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 114
| Posted 12/14/2004 9:09 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by TGB
borg: Calvinists are not like Hindus.
Tom: This whole thread is spinning out of control. It's a comic show now. I don't mean to pick on borg's statement alone. It's just indicative of the past few pages. I can't stop laughing long enough to p-p-p-p-post!
Thanks for keeping me smiling everybody.
Tom
Glad to give you such a rip-roaring good laugh, that is, if I had anything to do with it.     | | Back to Top | | |
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borg
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 324
| Posted 12/14/2004 9:11 AM (GMT -6) | | TGB I am glad that you find it humerous to hear that I am like a Hindu. But you bring forward a good point, I would agree that this thread has gone way out of control, I can barely stop laughing myself. I can get the mental picture in my head now; we're all sitting at our computers, eyes glued to this thread waiting for the next expected post to pop-up so we can pull some ad homs here and there and bash each other over the head thinking that we have actually accomplished something this day. All the while, the reality exists that we are merely sitting here bitching about nothing. But if this brings a sense of satisfaction on a job well done; so be it. As for me, I'm sitting out. Farewell for now.
"To suppose that whatever God requireth of us that we have power of ourselves to do, is to make the cross and grace of Jesus Christ of none effect." -- John Owen
"So it is a more glorious work of power to uphold a soul in a state of grace and holiness, and to carry it on till it is brought to glory, when there is so much sin remaining in the heart resisting, and Satan with all his might opposing, than it would have been to have kept manfrom falling at first, when Satan had nothing in man." Edwards | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 12/14/2004 9:41 AM (GMT -6) | | borg: ...I can barely stop laughing myself. I can get the mental picture in my head now; we're all sitting at our computers, eyes glued to this thread waiting for the next expected post to pop-up so we can pull some ad homs here and there and bash each other over the head thinking that we have actually accomplished something this day...
Tom: That's pretty close. I know debate is important ya'll. I'm not trying to say otherwise. I just hit the wall sometimes. Ya stand back and look at what we're actually saying and doing and I, I just can't help but shake my head--at myself first! But at the whole ordeal I guess.
Don't stop talking ya'll!
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 12/15/2004 3:51 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
To my understanding, the real distinction between determinism and what is known of as "free will theism" is not freedom of the will, but is instead the ability to reason and choose based on reason instead of mere instinct, impulse, or motive. It is clear that even animals have the ability to choose based on instinct, impulse, or motive.
John-
Would you also agree that our perception of a given situation is going to affect how we reason through it, given that 2 people in the exact situation may reason and act differently?
His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. | | Back to Top | | |
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timlings
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 130
| Posted 12/15/2004 12:13 PM (GMT -6) | | Chris
My, this tread has gone a bit crazy since I last visited. But I hope to continue where we left off...
Why does spiritual death mean you can't choose God? In my understanding, spiritual death means that your spirit is dead towards God, so you are cut off from God's divine life and relationship with him. But you can still choose to give in to God's convicting power - otherwise, why is it our fault for not repenting? If we can't do it, then we can't be blamed!
"Grr, I'm going to send you to hell for no doing something you couldn't do anyway." That does not sound like a just God to me.
Ok, so you're not an Arminian. But it's not a theology point, it's a point of logic! You can't plug two mice into a computer and say they are both making the pointer move. Causes all link up and don't take up each other's space: person A AND person B can't be both making the mouse pointer move.
Going back to the executioner...
cpoteet: Yes, we (the exectioner) are responsible, and God allows such an action to happen.
timlings: Ok, that makes sense.
cpoteet: The issue is that for God to not be author of that evil, we must be endowed with some measure of freedom (James 1:14), but it is not Libertarian because the executioner could not have chosen otherwise.
timlings: That sounds like a square circle to me. Please explain how, if the executioner could not have chosen otherwise, he had freedom. Freedom = being able to chose otherwise NOT= unable to choose otherwise. At least see the logical inconsistency there?
Talking about Abraham, he was justified by faith in Christ and his death on the cross. He saw Jesus' day and was glad! (John)
The atonement could have had no impact post-Jesus' death. But look at the probability of that scenario - it's just so extremely unlikely! Throughout history there have always been people who've followed the Lord... why is that going to change post-Jesus? The good news of the gospel gives God even better odds of people wanting to follow him. It's a powerful gospel! And it seems to have worked: a 1/3rd of the population of the globe confess to following Christ...
quote:
God the Father chose a people, Christ went down (by the decree of the Father) to save those chosen people, and the Holy Spirit works to call those people (sheep) home.
How do you square that with the fact that God desires all to be saved and none to perish? He doesn't pick a bunch of people from everyone else - he welcomes everyone who will surrender to him and do his will. God wants to save humans; if he forced people into his Kingdom, then we would no longer truly be humans.
quote:
"Over-knows?" I'm glad He knows what He's getting himself into before taking that "risk." I'm sorry, but I hope you realize how ludicrous this sounds.
Why does that sound ludicrous?
In regard to Mary, I think it was a risk. But God's not stupid! He looked at her character, how she had behaved and responded to him that far etc. This happens in all walks of life: we are only given greater responsibilities after we've proven ourselves in smaller ones.
I'm afraid I can't back up the story with a source. I think it is a biblical principle that God will use whoever is willing.
Good to dialogue with you.
love
Timlings | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 12/16/2004 5:32 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Gerry Attrick
While you demand from the Calvinist the reason and warrant of one's belief in compatibilism, you assume that belief in libertarian freewill is utterly unassailable, so much so, that you simply assert libertarian freewill as true and offer no biblical warrant for your assertion.
Hello Gary,
I have been reading through this thread and see you have not addressed the scripture that was provieded by orphan child. Please respond to the following:
Matthew 23:37 (NRSV)
"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often have I desired to gather your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing!
Thanks,
Mark | | Back to Top | | |
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Gerry Attrick
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 114
| Posted 12/17/2004 4:41 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by jefscott
Lock,
quote:
I know you have addressed your question to Gary, but I was wondering why the fact that Jerusalem was unwilling, proves that man has free will? Jerusalem was unwilling because their disposition was towards the flesh and not God.
Can you give a verse or two that says humans have NO freewill? I know there are verses that imply SOME things are beyond our ability. And I don't even need the bible to know that. But I would like a verse that says we have NO self-determinative ability at all.
I realize that you addressed your question to Lock, but I would like to weigh in briefly on your question.
The answer, of course, is that there are no verses anywhere in the Bible that explicitly state or even suggestively hint that humans "have NO self-determinative ability at all." Who has ever argued such a monstrous idea? If you suppose that Calvinists have, then you have not understood Calvinism.
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 12/17/2004 8:09 AM (GMT -6) | | Jeff-
As John and I alluded to earlier in this thread using the term "free will" or LFW, may be misleading. We all know our will is not totally free. I may "will" to fly, but if I jumped off a building and start flapping my arms I don't think I would go very far. As humans we have the ability to take in information, reason through and decide an action. Is this free will? Some would say "yes" because we make the decision. I believe that the decision we make is a direct result of our disposition which Paul teaches in Rom. 8.
quote:
5 For those who are in accord with flesh are disposed to that which is of the flesh, yet those who are in accord with spirit to that which is of the spirit.
6 For the disposition of the flesh is death, yet the disposition of the spirit is life and peace,
7 because the disposition of the flesh is enmity to God, for it is not subject to the law of God, for neither is it able.
8 Now those who are in flesh are not able to please God.
9 Yet you are not in flesh, but in spirit, if so be that God's spirit is making its home in you. Now if anyone has not Christ's spirit, this one is not His
Paul also taught back in chapter 6 of Rom. that we are either a slave to sin and death or a slave to righteousness...
quote:
17 Now thanks be to God that you were slaves of Sin, yet you obey from the heart the type of teaching to which you were given over.
18 Now, being freed from Sin, you are enslaved to Righteousness.
People have claimed that this teaches you are a slave to who you obey, but then you are missing what it is to be a slave. A slave does not chose his master, a servant may chose to hire himself out, but a slave is not a slave by choice.
Further in Rom. Paul teaches about election using the examples of Jacob and Esau and Pharoah. People have claimed that Romans 9 is only dealing with Israel and Pharoah and no one else, but then you miss out on the teaching by Paul through Midrashic interpretation principles. Paul is using Israel and Pharoah as examples or patterns of how God deals with mankind as a whole. After Paul gives the example of Israel over Esau, he states concerning mankind...
quote:
16 Consequently, then, it is not of him who is willing, nor of him who is racing, but of God, the Merciful.
After givng the pattern of Pharoah being roused up for God's purposes Paul states concerning mankind...
quote:
18 Consequently, then, to whom He will, He is merciful, yet whom He will, He is hardening.
19 You will be protesting to me, then, "Why, then, is He still blaming? for who has withstood His intention?"
20 O man! who are you, to be sure, who are answering again to God? That which is molded will not protest to the molder, "Why do you make me thus?"
21 Or has not the potter the right over the clay, out of the same kneading to make one vessel, indeed, for honor, yet one for dishonor?
22 Now if God, wanting to display His indignation and to make His powerful doings known, carries, with much patience, the vessels of indignation, adapted for destruction,
23 it is that He should also be making known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He makes ready before for glory --
In the plain language of the bible, we are either a slave to sin or a slave to righteouseness. The only freedom the bible speaks of is freedom from sin and death. The decisions we make are according to our disposition, in accord with the flesh or in accord with the spirit. And as Rom. 11:32 states, "For God locks up all together in stubbornness, that He should be merciful to all."
Now it is your turn. I have based my position on direct biblical statements. Please present in direct biblical statements that our "will" is free or that LFW exists. Verses that say people have "chosen" to not obey God and His law do not support "free will" but instead show us the product of one in accord with the flesh.
His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. | | Back to Top | | |
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 12/18/2004 3:36 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by jefscott
The verses you constantly quote do, indeed, indicate that there are SOME things that humans cannot do. A carnal/soulish man cannot fulfill a spiritual law. But the fact that we have SOME determination does not NEED to be learned from the bible. We already KNOW we have such volition from our own experience. Just like we KNOW there is a Creator (also capable of final causes) independent of the bible. So if the bible doesn't say or imply that we DON'T have free-will, it must remain as a given from our own experience/intuition like mathematical truths and other a priori knowledge.
If you deny the validity of a priori knowledge, we can get nowhere in a rational discussion. For as Lewis said, if nothing is obvious, nothing can be proved.
Plus, Paul clearly showed we transition into that carnal state, Romans 1. We don't start out "minding the things of the flesh".
We start out like Jesus started out, neutral.
Jesus, in the flesh, not minding the things of the flesh, proof that simply being born, simply being in the flesh isn't the same as setting our minds on the things of the flesh.
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Gerry Attrick
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 114
| Posted 12/18/2004 4:47 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Plus, Paul clearly showed we transition into that carnal state, Romans 1. We don't start out "minding the things of the flesh".
We start out like Jesus started out, neutral.
Jesus was morally and spiritually neutral? We come into this world morally and spiritually neutral? We are each conceived morally and spiritually neutral? What does Psalm 51:5 mean? "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me."
Paul does not suggest, in Romans 1, that we transition from spiritual and moral neutrality to spiritual and moral depravity.
quote:
Jesus, in the flesh, not minding the things of the flesh, proof that simply being born, simply being in the flesh isn't the same as setting our minds on the things of the flesh.
When Scripture uses the expression "the flesh," as in "the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us" (John 1:14), the expression hardly means the same thing as "the flesh" does in Paul's use in Romans 8:3 ("weakened by the flesh"). Observe that Paul makes sure that we do not read his words, "in the likeness of sinful flesh," as meaning the same thing as John's words "the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us" (John 1:14). John's use of "the flesh" in 1:14 is not moral or spiritual but incarnational. Paul's use of "the flesh" in Romans 8:3 is clearly moral and spiritual. In this sense, then, the Christ did not come in "the flesh" but "in the likeness of sinful flesh." | | Back to Top | | |
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