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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 11/24/2004 5:11 AM (GMT -6) |   | borg: Tom I do not believe that an apology is in line here. reading through many of your posts and others posts here on this board (often) I do not see these conversations coming across with love.
Tom: This looks to me like you’re admitting your post was unloving and that an apology would be appropriate, but that since others you judge to have acted unloving on this board haven’t apologized (like me), YOU’RE not going to apologize. Regardless of what you think of me and others, is this how you do your faith? You apologize for what you’ve done only when others you judge unloving apologize to those they’ve hurt? Is that the law of love?
borg: The way that you have handled many of the posts submitted by Cottonman have enraged me.
Tom: Enraged you?
borg: You do not deal patiently with him and neither do some of your commrades.
Tom: Well, I don’t try to be impatient on purpose. I’m perfectly happy to continue patiently with Cotton, discussing the issues as long as he likes. He asked questions. I answered his questions to the best of my ability. He didn’t accept my answers, didn’t like them. They didn’t work for him. I actually asked him to tell me what I could do to help him find answers. He said I needed to find different answers or find somebody that could offer different answers. I wasn’t rude or unloving with him. It’s not impatient of me to admit that I have no more to offer.
borg: You ask me to apologize? I ask for what? I have seen more sarcastic, rude, and unloving posts come from some of you people on this forum then any other forum I post on, and this last post of mine was, not only to answer Wicker's objection, but to test the waters. It seems that you people can throw out ad homs and not really care about it, and why is that?
Tom: Again, this just sounds to me like you’re saying, “As long as there are other people in the world more sarcastic and rude than I am, I don’t have to apologize for MY rudeness.” Do you really want to argue this? Do you really want to lower yourself to the sort of behavior you’re objecting to?
Hey, borg, I was just concerned. That’s all. Since it’s me, someone whose impatience enrages you, you can just blow me off and tell yourself that the way you talked to Wicker was perfectly fine.
borg: I feel as though many of the threads on this forum lack the Holy Spirit. It is no longer about sharpening one another but ripping on others who disagree from yourself and defending vain and useless ideologies unwilling to work with one another. This isn't the spirit of debate that I sense in a good Christian enviroment and leaves me to wonder when it was that the Holy Spirit decided to leave such useless bantering.
Tom: Do you think your comments to Wicker promoted or undermined the sort of loving, Christian debate you wish was always the case?
We do get personal around here. But I’ve seen a lot of apologies and reconciliation too.
borg: So if I give an apology, it would to a degree be unsincere.
Tom: Don’t give it if you don’t believe it.
borg: I am in no way excluding my posts from some of the stuff that I hate on this forum. I have been guilty of it, but needless to say I have awaken to that…
Tom: Before or after your last post to Wicker?
borg: …and that is why I do not post as often as I use to. Be careful brothers, for if the Holy Spirit does leave this forum with its many arguments, we become guilty of sin in grieving the very thing that we attempt to sharpen one another with.
Tom: Good advice we all ought to head. | | Back to Top | | |
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 11/24/2004 6:14 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi everyone,
quote:
Lee: I believe God's children can really choose, though unbelievers can't.
John: So, a child molester for example, simply can't help himself; he had no choice in the matter; he absolutely HAD to defile all those little kids.
What a wonderful excuse for SIN determinism makes!
No, sin always brings guilt, even unintentional sin:
Leviticus 4:27 If a member of the community sins unintentionally and does what is forbidden in any of the Lord's commands, he is guilty.
Even unintentional uncleanness:
Leviticus 5:2 Or if a person touches anything ceremonially unclean-- whether the carcasses of unclean wild animals or of unclean livestock or of unclean creatures that move along the ground-- even though he is unaware of it, he has become unclean and is guilty.
And I believe that unbelievers may also be able to choose some of their plans:
Proverbs 16:1 To man belong the plans of the heart...
Though their deeds are still ordained by God:
Lamentations 3:37 Who can speak and have it happen if the Lord has not decreed it?
Would you rather have child molesters be able to do real damage? If sin is not in God's control, then we cannot give thanks in all circumstances, nor can everything work for good for those who love God.
quote:
What sin is there is being human? Does God condemn a person simply for being born into this world?
No, the guilt is because of a sin nature, which we all have, "there is no one who is righteous, not even one" (Rom. 3:10).
quote:
One may as well be consistent, then, and say God throws even little babies into the lake of fire, because of their "sinful nature."
I believe we are given reason to hope that all will be saved…
Blessings,
Lee
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 11/24/2004 6:22 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi Wicker Man,
quote:
Wicker Man: God expected good grapes from His vineyard (which is why vineyards are planted), instead He got worthless grapes.
God doesn't always get what He wants.
I think he does!
Jeremiah 9:7 Therefore this is what the Lord Almighty says: "See, I will refine and test them, for what else can I do because of the sin of my people?"
He will refine them! He gets what he wants, good grapes, after all.
quote:
Matthew 23:37 "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling."
God wanted, they were unwilling.
I believe we may hope that all will be saved, thus Jesus' desire will not be frustrated...
Isaiah 46:10 I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.
quote:
How was Jesus tempted in ALL things AS we are?
James 1:
14 But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust.
15 Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.
Jesus was enticed by His own lust (desires) which He had because He was in the flesh like us, yet He didn't birth sin.
There are different senses of this word, though, sometimes it means like what James is saying, drawn by sinful desires, Jesus didn't have those, though:
John 14:30 … the ruler of the world is coming, and he has nothing in me…
Other times, it means simply "tested," and tested without involving a sinful desire:
Genesis 22:1 After these things God tested Abraham …
Hebrews 11:17 By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice …
Blessings,
Lee
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the Wicker Man
Registered Member
Date Joined Sep 2004
Total Posts : 73
| Posted 11/24/2004 6:23 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Lee Merrill
If sin is not in God's control, then we cannot give thanks in all circumstances, nor can everything work for good for those who love God.
So, without meticulous control of everything, God is unable to work good out of bad situations?
Funny, because WE don't have meticulous control, yet WE have the ability to work good out of bad situations. It appears we're more powerful than your concept of an inept God.
quote:
Originally posted by Lee Merrill
Hi Wicker Man,
quote:
Wicker Man: God expected good grapes from His vineyard (which is why vineyards are planted), instead He got worthless grapes.
God doesn't always get what He wants.
I think he does!
Jeremiah 9:7 Therefore this is what the Lord Almighty says: "See, I will refine and test them, for what else can I do because of the sin of my people?"
He will refine them! He gets what he wants, good grapes, after all.
Except He destroyed that particular vineyard. You don't even get bad grapes out of a destroyed vineyard.
Jeremiah 9:7 Therefore this is what the Lord Almighty says: "See, I will refine and test them, for what else can I do because of the sin of my people?"
"what else can I do?" God asks. That's His only option at this point, refine and test them.
uromancer to the stars | | Back to Top | | |
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 11/24/2004 6:32 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi again, Wicker Man,
quote:
So, without meticulous control of everything, God is unable to work good out of bad situations?
Funny, because WE don't have meticulous control, yet WE have the ability to work good out of bad situations.
Do you hold that all does work out for good for those who love God? And that we can give thanks in everything? That's not the Warfare Worldview, nor standard Open Theism.
Yes, without complete control, there is indeed a possibility of real harm.
I agree that we can bring good out of a bad situation, but we cannot bring only good, out of every bad situation, that would require … complete control.
quote:
Except He destroyed that particular vineyard. You don't even get bad grapes out of a destroyed vineyard.
The vineyard is the Jewish nation, is it not? Which is still here, and not worshipping idols any more, they are being refined, with good fruit to come:
Isaiah 27:6 In days to come Jacob will take root, Israel will bud and blossom and fill all the world with fruit.
And again, I believe we may hope that all will be saved, thus even good fruit, from these rebellious Israelites in Isaiah's day..
Ezekiel 5:13 Then my anger will cease and my wrath against them will subside, and I will be avenged. And when I have spent my wrath upon them, they will know that I the Lord have spoken in my zeal.
Ezekiel 6:14 Then they will know that I am the Lord.
Blessings,
Lee
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the Wicker Man
Registered Member
Date Joined Sep 2004
Total Posts : 73
| Posted 11/24/2004 6:43 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Lee Merrill
Hi again, Wicker Man,
quote:
So, without meticulous control of everything, God is unable to work good out of bad situations?
Funny, because WE don't have meticulous control, yet WE have the ability to work good out of bad situations.
Do you hold that all does work out for good for those who love God?
Maybe you should see the caveats within the verse itself:
Romans 8:
28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
This is directed at those willing to work (good out of bad) along with God. It's not automatic and unilateral.
God works through others, thus He needs willing participants.
quote:
Yes, without complete control, there is indeed a possibility of real harm.
your concept of an inept God again
quote:
Except He destroyed that particular vineyard. You don't even get bad grapes out of a destroyed vineyard.
quote:
The vineyard is the Jewish nation, is it not? Which is still here, and not worshipping idols any more, they are being refined, with good fruit to come:
The vineyard is the Jewish nation, at that time. They're dead now.
A nation is made up of people, many of whom died outside of relationship with God. Like those bad grapes destroyed after God ran out of options.
But what more could God have done? God Himself asked.
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Sahid
Megistered Rember
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 2013
| Posted 11/24/2004 9:23 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sahid: … assuming that God's knowledge is correct, from God's point of view my decisions are set. So why bother with anything?
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I believe God's children can really choose, though unbelievers can't.
That's a restatement of the question not the answer. I admit I haven't read everything here yet, but here I go.
To the surprise of all, I have respect for the faith of some that flies in the face of logic. I actually have that same faith when it comes to holy war in the old testament; I don't get it, but I trust that it makes sense. (Please don't argue it here. Just refer to a new thread.) What truly frustrates me is that so many can't acknowledge that what they believe is not just alogical (if that's a word) but illogical i.e. self contradictory when fleshed out.
To say that only believers can choose simply begs the question. Now instead of all mankind having free will only some of it does. We are still left with the same logical problem:
1 If the future is known,
2 then it is set,
3 then believers have no power to choose their future actions,
4 then believers have no free will,
5 then we must disregard (or adopt a poor hermeneutic for) significant portions of our Bible.
It seems like we are scared of admitting that it is 1 that is false. I have heard the arguements for the others and they are sad. I've heard Lock say that they Bible has it both ways, but if the Bible speaks out both sides of its mouth, how are we to trust it? The issue is the logic.
quote:
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Lee: I believe God's children can really choose, though unbelievers can't.
John: So, a child molester for example, simply can't help himself; he had no choice in the matter; he absolutely HAD to defile all those little kids.
What a wonderful excuse for SIN determinism makes!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No, sin always brings guilt, even unintentional sin:
Leviticus 4:27 If a member of the community sins unintentionally and does what is forbidden in any of the Lord's commands, he is guilty.
Lee, I don't think you get what he's saying. He is being sarcastic. John doesn't think it's an excuse for sin. The logic he is arguing against, however, does allow that excuse. He isn't arguing against the Bible, in fact the scriptures you quote bolster his agrument. Of course there is no excuse for sin. That's why your logic must be incorrect.
That's why I left. Too much time is spent wading through the muck, trying different ways of saying things so that people can understand. Hardly any space is actually spent on the issue. Lee, I like you; you know that.
I have a high view of the Bible, but the Bible is not what is being argued. What is being argued or, to put it more precisely, the only thing worthwhile to argue among the usual participants of this board is the rationality of the belief we have extracted from the Bible. I'm sorry, but anything that amounts to "A is B and A is not B" I will throw out the window. "The future is set, but we are free to decide some of the future" is nonsense. I grow tired of trying to explain why. If anyone here holds this belief (and I know many do), that's fine. I hold a similarly illogical belief on holy war. But 1) I am not content with it and 2) because it is illogical I don't bother trying to defend it with logic. The only way I defend it is by saying, "God has shown himself to be good, so I trust that his actions that appear bad only appear that way because of my poor vision." Repeating, I do not try to logically defend it. That would be bad. I would loose the respect of anyone who respected honesty.
I am sure someone will miss the point and think I'm changing the subject to holy war. I'm not. The subject is the openness of the future and free will. If before reading this paragraph, a reader thought I was changing the subject to holy war, I would encourage that reader not to respond for a few days to this thread and try in the future to read more carefully and charitably. I hope that stops the flood before it starts.
Finally, there is more than my frustration to consider. Intellectual honesty in this area is important for much bigger reasons. I personally could name the names of five close friends off the top of my head who have rejected all or major parts of Christianity because the Christianity they were presented with made such horrible logical sense. Two of those I have won back to a large degree. It's very hard work! The work will be easier and more will be saved if we take the time now to get things right the first time. Maybe there is some brilliant idea that I haven't seen that logically allows for the future to be known and the Bible to be true. I can honestly say I'd be happy to come across such an idea! It's not the idea of foreknowledge that should ultimately concern us. It's the intellectual dishonesty and sloppiness that turn people away from the kingdom.
Sorry bout the rant.
Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre | | Back to Top | | |
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 11/25/2004 1:59 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi everyone,
quote:
Lee: Do you hold that all does work out for good for those who love God?
Wicker Man: Maybe you should see the caveats within the verse itself:
Romans 8:
28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
This is directed at those willing to work (good out of bad) along with God. It's not automatic and unilateral.
No the caveat is "those who love God, those who are called," with no mention of being willing to work along with God to bring good out of bad. It is guaranteed (I also wouldn't say automatic) if we meet those two qualifications.
quote:
Lee: Yes, without complete control, there is indeed a possibility of real harm.
Wicker Man: your concept of an inept God again.
Do you not agree with the Warfare Worldview?
And if you hold that God restricts the devil so he can't do any real harm, even when he's loose, then that's just what I mean, God is still in control, so no harm will come to those who love God, who are called.
quote:
Like those bad grapes destroyed after God ran out of options.
Well again, I hope that even these rebellious Israelites can be saved, after dying under judgment.
quote:
But what more could God have done? God Himself asked.
And God himself answered:
Isaiah 5:5 Now I will tell you what I am going to do to my vineyard…
In order to refine them, in order to get good fruit.
quote:
Sahid:
1 If the future is known,
2 then it is set,
3 then believers have no power to choose their future actions,
4 then believers have no free will,
5 then we must disregard (or adopt a poor hermeneutic for) significant portions of our Bible.
Yes, and then God can make no free actions either, after he has made a plan, for he knows how he will respond in advance.
quote:
John: What a wonderful excuse for SIN determinism makes!
Lee: No, sin always brings guilt, even unintentional sin:
Leviticus 4:27 If a member of the community sins unintentionally and does what is forbidden in any of the Lord's commands, he is guilty.
Sahid: John doesn't think it's an excuse for sin. The logic he is arguing against, however, does allow that excuse. He isn't arguing against the Bible, in fact the scriptures you quote bolster his argument.
I do think this point does address his concern, though, for if unintentional sin causes guilt, then indeed there is no excuse for sin, even for unintentional sin, even for sinful actions that God ordains.
quote:
Sahid: Maybe there is some brilliant idea that I haven't seen that logically allows for the future to be known and the Bible to be true.
Yes, other than pointing to the possibility that people may have some say in their plans and their motives, I haven't been trying to explain how this works, only that both are taught in Scripture, God's knowledge of the future, and also guilt for sin, that he ordains must happen:
Matthew 26:24 The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born.
Blessings,
Lee
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 11/25/2004 5:41 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by the Wicker Man
quote:
Originally posted by lock
quote:
"Jesus inherited corrupted flesh and Jesus sinned because Jesus was a sinner by nature."
Nice try Wicker, I never posted this statement!
You said:
"It is impossible to keep the law due to the infirmity of the flesh (Rom. 8:3) and those of the flesh are unable to please God (v. 8)."
Jesus was one of us, born of a woman, in the flesh, so "it was impossible for Jesus to keep the law due to the infirmity of the flesh (Rom. 8:3) and those of the flesh (Jesus included) are unable to please God (v. 8)."
And you said:
"I inherited corrupted flesh and I sinned because I was a sinner by nature."
Jesus was one of us, born of a woman, in the flesh, so "Jesus inherited corrupted flesh and Jesus sinned because Jesus was a sinner by nature."
Hold up there Wicker boy, I did not post "I inherited corrupted flesh and I sinned because I was a sinner by nature."
I believe it was Spenlake who made that comment.
You do a good anough job twisting what I say out of context, there is no need to attribute to me what others have posted.
His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. | | Back to Top | | |
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JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 11/25/2004 10:10 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
John-
Thank you for the weblinks and book suggestions. I will check those out.
Happy Thankgiving!
Lock
You're very welcome, lock. 
Happy (belated) Thanksgiving to you, too! (burp)
Lee: I of course agree with the Scriptures that unintentional sin brings guilt and requires atonement, repentance and faith in order for forgiveness to follow, as is clearly stated in Lev. 4 & 5.
However, your response really doesn't speak to the issue I was trying to raise with the absurdity. In your view, for instance, in a particular situation of child molestation, did the child molester have the ability to choose otherwise than to molest the child?
As to your Romans 3 reference, saying all have sinned does not explain why all have sinned, and attributing it to a "sinful nature" confuses choice with nature, and assumes that which is not proveable.
Happy Thanksgiving to you, too, Lee.
John
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 11/26/2004 11:25 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi John,
quote:
In your view, for instance, in a particular situation of child molestation, did the child molester have the ability to choose otherwise than to molest the child?
If he was an unbeliever, then his act was under God's control, I do hold to that, otherwise there would be no way to give thanks in all circumstances, and no way to believe that God can work in all things for the good of those who love him.
Revelation 2:10 Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer.
If there is a possibility of real harm, then we should be afraid, to some extent…
quote:
As to your Romans 3 reference, saying all have sinned does not explain why all have sinned, and attributing it to a "sinful nature" confuses choice with nature, and assumes that which is not proveable.
I do believe that an unbeliever's nature determines being sinful, thus there will be sins because of this.
Romans 8:8 Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.
And that's a sin, to not please him.
quote:
Happy Thanksgiving to you, too, Lee.
To you too, John!
I was a good boy, and did not eat too much turkey. Instead, I ate too much chicken.
Blessings,
Lee
P.S. Actually, I didn't overeat this time, but that's because pizza is not on the menu for Thanksgiving!
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the Wicker Man
Registered Member
Date Joined Sep 2004
Total Posts : 73
| Posted 11/26/2004 12:56 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Lee Merrill
Hi John,
quote:
In your view, for instance, in a particular situation of child molestation, did the child molester have the ability to choose otherwise than to molest the child?
If he was an unbeliever, then his act was under God's control, I do hold to that, otherwise there would be no way to give thanks in all circumstances, and no way to believe that God can work in all things for the good of those who love him.
Revelation 2:10 Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer.
If there is a possibility of real harm, then we should be afraid, to some extent…
What you're saying is, that because God has total, meticulous control of the whole world, no "real harm" is happening or has happened.
So, for example, under Mao's "Great Leap Forward", 30 million Chinese starved to death [Becker (Hungry Ghosts)].
What, pray tell, would "real harm" have looked like?
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God_Is_Truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2003
Total Posts : 33
| Posted 11/26/2004 9:43 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Lee Merrill
If he was an unbeliever, then his act was under God's control, I do hold to that, otherwise there would be no way to give thanks in all circumstances, and no way to believe that God can work in all things for the good of those who love him.
Lee, we don't give thanks in all circumstances because of the circumstances. we give thanks in all because of Christ and what he has done for us. we know that nothing in this world will ever seperate us from his love and that whether we live or die, we are his. giving thanks has to do with him, not with the circumstances. | | Back to Top | | |
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 11/27/2004 10:01 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi everyone,
quote:
Lee: If there is a possibility of real harm, then we should be afraid, to some extent…
Wicker Man: What you're saying is, that because God has total, meticulous control of the whole world, no "real harm" is happening or has happened.
So, for example, under Mao's "Great Leap Forward", 30 million Chinese starved to death [Becker (Hungry Ghosts)].
What, pray tell, would "real harm" have looked like?
These were not all (or even mostly) believers, though. I agree that real harm can come to sheep out there among the wolves, real harm will come to the wolves, too.
And believers did overcome this, there are shining testimonies of believers in this period, Wang Ming Dao for one, Samuel Lam for another, and the church in China is one of the fastest growing churches, if not the fastest growing church, in the world.
The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church, and Jesus said to such people, "do not fear."
quote:
GIT: Lee, we don't give thanks in all circumstances because of the circumstances. we give thanks in all because of Christ and what he has done for us.
Well, how about "in all things God works for the good of those who love him," or "do not fear?" This latter phrase is perhaps the most often-repeated phrase in the Bible, yet how can we not fear, if real harm can come to us, that God did not intend?
quote:
Ross: In Lee's worldview we are to embrace horrors such as child molestation and rape because they come from God just as much as the good things.
That's Job's world, too:
Job 2:9-10 His wife said to him, "Are you still holding on to your integrity? Curse God and die!" He replied, "You are talking like a foolish woman. Shall we accept good from God, and not trouble?" In all this, Job did not sin in what he said.
Blessings,
Lee
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God_Is_Truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2003
Total Posts : 33
| Posted 11/27/2004 12:17 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Lee Merrill
quote:
GIT: Lee, we don't give thanks in all circumstances because of the circumstances. we give thanks in all because of Christ and what he has done for us.
Well, how about "in all things God works for the good of those who love him," or "do not fear?" This latter phrase is perhaps the most often-repeated phrase in the Bible, yet how can we not fear, if real harm can come to us, that God did not intend?
again, our assurance lies in God's power, his love and his promises.
Hebrews 13:6
So we say with confidence, "The Lord is my helper; I will not be afraid. What can man do to me?"
we trust that God will bring about good things in spite of tough times. what hope would we have left if we believed that God brought about both the good and the bad? there would be none.
but because he only brings about the good, we can know that anything evil in this world will be worked through by God for our benefit and for good, not evil. for if God does both good and evil then there is no assurance that what is evil will work for something good; for God may use it to bring forth more evil. and what comfort would we have in that? i know it wouldn't help me sleep any better at night.
but if we hold that God is only good and only does good things, than we have confidence and assurance in his promises and his faithfulness to see us through all circumstances. for he is our strength, our hope and our life.
Ephesians 6:10
Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power.
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the Wicker Man
Registered Member
Date Joined Sep 2004
Total Posts : 73
| Posted 11/28/2004 2:46 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Lee Merrill
Hi everyone,
quote:
Lee: If there is a possibility of real harm, then we should be afraid, to some extent…
Wicker Man: What you're saying is, that because God has total, meticulous control of the whole world, no "real harm" is happening or has happened.
So, for example, under Mao's "Great Leap Forward", 30 million Chinese starved to death [Becker (Hungry Ghosts)].
What, pray tell, would "real harm" have looked like?
These were not all (or even mostly) believers, though. I agree that real harm can come to sheep out there among the wolves, real harm will come to the wolves, too.
Let's try again.
Dru Sjodin was brutally raped and murdered. According to you, if God hadn't had total control of this, real harm could have happened instead.
What would the real harm have been? That's my question.
Without God being the designer of this brutal rape and murder, what real harm could have happened instead?
I'm looking for a metric, something like, brutal rape, murder AND a hangnail...
What would real harm looked like, as opposed to what happened to her?
uromancer to the stars | | Back to Top | | |
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 11/28/2004 9:26 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi God_Is_Truth,
quote:
Lee: yet how can we not fear, if real harm can come to us, that God did not intend?
GIT: again, our assurance lies in God's power, his love and his promises.
Hebrews 13:6
So we say with confidence, "The Lord is my helper; I will not be afraid. What can man do to me?"
But if the answer to "What can man do?" is "A lot!" then I think we have reason to fear.
Saying "God will protect you, but not from real harm," is not very comforting, to a soldier setting off to battle.
quote:
what hope would we have left if we believed that God brought about both the good and the bad? there would be none.
No, there would be nothing but hope!
"Every time you meet a difficulty, every time you find yourself in an impossible situation, ask yourself this question: Am I going to starve here, or am I going to eat the food that is set before me? If you are relying on the Lord for victory and let His overcoming life be manifested in you, you will find fresh nourishment and increased vitality in accepting as 'bread' those Anakim that are contesting your progress. Many people take the Word of God as their meat and the doing of His will as their meat, but they reject the Anakim as unpalatable food. The more we eat such food, the stronger we will be. Caleb is a grand illustration of this. Because he accepted the Anakim as 'bread' he was still full of vigor at the age of eighty-five. So many Anakim had been assimilated by him over the years that he had developed a constitution which showed no trace of age."
"So it is in the spiritual realm. Some brothers and sisters have met few difficulties, but they are spiritually feeble. The explanation is that they have not consumed enough Anakim. On the other hand, there are those who have met and overcome difficulty after difficulty, temptation after temptation; and they are full of vitality. The reason is, they have fed well on Anakim. Every difficulty and every temptation Satan puts in our way is food for us. This is a divinely appointed means of spiritual progress. The sight of any great trouble strikes terror into the heart of those who do not believe God, but those who trust Him say: 'Praise God, here is some more food!' All our trials, without exception, are bread for us, and as we accept one trial after the other, we are more and more richly nourished and the result is a continuous increase of strength." (Watchman Nee)
quote:
… if God does both good and evil then there is no assurance that what is evil will work for something good; for God may use it to bring forth more evil. and what comfort would we have in that?
If all trouble and distress just does me good, then that is indeed comforting! And God will not overload us, we have his promise, and his promise to carry our burdens, too.
quote:
but if we hold that God is only good and only does good things, than we have confidence and assurance in his promises and his faithfulness to see us through all circumstances. for he is our strength, our hope and our life.
Yes! And God is indeed good, and does only good:
Psalm 119:71 It was good for me to be afflicted so that I might learn your decrees.
quote:
Ephesians 6:10
Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power.
Amen!
Blessings,
Lee
==================================================
"Even now we seem to have dim glimpses into regions
from which we receive no word to bring away" (George MacDonald) | | Back to Top | | |
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 11/28/2004 9:33 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi Wicker Man,
quote:
Lee: I agree that real harm can come to sheep out there among the wolves, real harm will come to the wolves, too.
Wicker Man: Dru Sjodin was brutally raped and murdered. According to you, if God hadn't had total control of this, real harm could have happened instead.
What would the real harm have been? That's my question.
Real harm would be evil that could not be overcome. As Jesus was going to the cross, he said:
Luke 23:28 "Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for me; weep for yourselves and for your children."
Why did he say this? Because even the cross could not harm him, sexual, emotional, physical abuse of the worst kind, even death, and this is what came of it:
Colossians 2:15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.
And this is what he says to his followers:
Revelation 2:10 Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.
"God seems to go quite across and work in a contrary way: when he intends the greatest mercies to his people he first usually brings them into a very low conditions. If it is a bodily mercy, an outward mercy that he intends to bestow, he brings them physically low, and outwardly low; if it is a mercy in their possessions that he intends to bestow, he brings them low in that and then raises them; and in their reputations, he brings them low there, and then raises them; and in their spirits God ordinarily brings their spirits low and then raises their spirits. Usually the people of God, before the greatest comforts, have the greatest afflictions and sorrows." (Jeremiah Burroughs)
Blessings,
Lee
==================================================
"Even now we seem to have dim glimpses into regions
from which we receive no word to bring away" (George MacDonald) | | Back to Top | | |
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the Wicker Man
Registered Member
Date Joined Sep 2004
Total Posts : 73
| Posted 11/28/2004 1:05 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Lee Merrill
"God seems to go quite across and work in a contrary way: when he intends the greatest mercies to his people he first usually brings them into a very low conditions. If it is a bodily mercy, an outward mercy that he intends to bestow, he brings them physically low, and outwardly low; if it is a mercy in their possessions that he intends to bestow, he brings them low in that and then raises them; and in their reputations, he brings them low there, and then raises them; and in their spirits God ordinarily brings their spirits low and then raises their spirits. Usually the people of God, before the greatest comforts, have the greatest afflictions and sorrows." (Jeremiah Burroughs)
So after God brought Dru into the "low" condition of being raped and killed, then what? Where does He go from there? He had Dru raped and killed, now what? Where's the comfort after that?
uromancer to the stars | | Back to Top | | |
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God_Is_Truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2003
Total Posts : 33
| Posted 11/29/2004 3:25 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Lee Merrill
Hi God_Is_Truth,
But if the answer to "What can man do?" is "A lot!" then I think we have reason to fear.
Saying "God will protect you, but not from real harm," is not very comforting, to a soldier setting off to battle.
man can only do harm to the body, not the soul.
Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
quote:
No, there would be nothing but hope!
"Every time you meet a difficulty, every time you find yourself in an impossible situation, ask yourself this question: Am I going to starve here, or am I going to eat the food that is set before me? If you are relying on the Lord for victory and let His overcoming life be manifested in you, you will find fresh nourishment and increased vitality in accepting as 'bread' those Anakim that are contesting your progress. Many people take the Word of God as their meat and the doing of His will as their meat, but they reject the Anakim as unpalatable food. The more we eat such food, the stronger we will be. Caleb is a grand illustration of this. Because he accepted the Anakim as 'bread' he was still full of vigor at the age of eighty-five. So many Anakim had been assimilated by him over the years that he had developed a constitution which showed no trace of age."
"So it is in the spiritual realm. Some brothers and sisters have met few difficulties, but they are spiritually feeble. The explanation is that they have not consumed enough Anakim. On the other hand, there are those who have met and overcome difficulty after difficulty, temptation after temptation; and they are full of vitality. The reason is, they have fed well on Anakim. Every difficulty and every temptation Satan puts in our way is food for us. This is a divinely appointed means of spiritual progress. The sight of any great trouble strikes terror into the heart of those who do not believe God, but those who trust Him say: 'Praise God, here is some more food!' All our trials, without exception, are bread for us, and as we accept one trial after the other, we are more and more richly nourished and the result is a continuous increase of strength." (Watchman Nee)
i don't see it as a necessity to believe that God ordains something evil to bring about spiritual growth. you can grow and treat it in that way without believing that God ordained it to pass.
quote:
If all trouble and distress just does me good, then that is indeed comforting! And God will not overload us, we have his promise, and his promise to carry our burdens, too.
how can all trouble and distress only do you good?
quote:
Yes! And God is indeed good, and does only good:
Psalm 119:71 It was good for me to be afflicted so that I might learn your decrees
so ordaining something is not the same as doing it?
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 11/30/2004 3:36 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by the Wicker Man
quote:
Originally posted by Lee Merrill
"God seems to go quite across and work in a contrary way: when he intends the greatest mercies to his people he first usually brings them into a very low conditions. If it is a bodily mercy, an outward mercy that he intends to bestow, he brings them physically low, and outwardly low; if it is a mercy in their possessions that he intends to bestow, he brings them low in that and then raises them; and in their reputations, he brings them low there, and then raises them; and in their spirits God ordinarily brings their spirits low and then raises their spirits. Usually the people of God, before the greatest comforts, have the greatest afflictions and sorrows." (Jeremiah Burroughs)
So after God brought Dru into the "low" condition of being raped and killed, then what? Where does He go from there? He had Dru raped and killed, now what? Where's the comfort after that?
Your questioning implies that Dru and those close to her have no hope beyond the grave. Do you not have confidence that God will deal justly with those involved in this crime?
We have no idea how this terrible crime affected Dru's faith and the faith of those close to her. But either way I have confidence that God has a plan for each individual in His purposes.
His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. | | Back to Top | | |
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the Wicker Man
Registered Member
Date Joined Sep 2004
Total Posts : 73
| Posted 11/30/2004 4:01 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
Your questioning implies that Dru and those close to her have no hope beyond the grave. Do you not have confidence that God will deal justly with those involved in this crime?
You and Lee believe God was the one "involved" in the crime. Will God punish God for having Dru brutally raped and killed?
"Hope beyond the grave"??? From the same God who took your hope before the grave.
God had your daughter brutally raped and killed, Dru's parents, go to God for comfort. Of course, He may decide to have you brutally killed as well, but take the chance, some real harm could occur instead.
Maybe Dru was murdered before she had the chance to become a believer.
Lee still hasn't answered what real harm supercedes being brutally raped and killed.
Rape, murder AND a hangnail?
Rape, murder AND identity theft?
Rape, murder AND the Vikings lose that weekend?
Jeremiah 29:11 'For I know the plans that I have for you,' declares the LORD, 'plans for welfare and not for calamity to give you a future and a hope.'
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