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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 11/30/2004 8:08 AM (GMT -6) |   | wicker-
You did not answer my question, do you not have confidence that God will justly deal with the man who committed this terrible crime against Dru and her family and friends?
quote:
Maybe Dru was murdered before she had the chance to become a believer.
If your contention is true, that God has no control over this particular situation, then the man who took Dru's life had more control over whether or not she was saved then God does!
quote:
You and Lee believe God was the one "involved" in the crime. Will God punish God for having Dru brutally raped and killed?
You are are twisting what Lee and I are saying. I cannot speak for Lee, but I believe neither Lee nor I contend that God was "involved" in the rape. The man who committed the rape and murder will be judged by God according to his acts. God does not commit evil. According to many Old Testament passages God brings about evil according to His purposes, He raises up humans, spirits, or satan himself, to commit the evil. Even though Judas, and Pilate, Herod, the Romans soldiers, and the Jewish people, were all involved in Christ's crucifixion, but Acts 4:27, 28 confirms that all was done according to God's hand and was predestined beforehand. Satan committed the evil against Job, but not without God's permission. The prophecies are full of the evil God brings against Israel using other humans and nations.
quote:
Lee still hasn't answered what real harm supercedes being brutally raped and killed.
Again, I cannot speak for Lee, but the bible says we are not to fear those who can destroy and kill the body. We have no idea what the affect of this horrible crime has had on Dru's faith or the faith of those close to her. I do not believe in "chance" salvation. We will either be saved during this lifetime, or we will be saved at the consummation, no "chances" taken. The circumstances we experience during this life is only preperation for what is to come. I believe that this horrible act will be dealt with justly and that all parties will be reconciled with God and each other.
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the Wicker Man
Registered Member
Date Joined Sep 2004
Total Posts : 73
| Posted 11/30/2004 8:54 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
wicker-
You did not answer my question, do you not have confidence that God will justly deal with the man who committed this terrible crime against Dru and her family and friends?
Yes, God will deal with him. But it isn't necessary for God to be the perpetrator in order to deal with the perpetrator.
Why do you think God would punish someone who carried out His eternal decree (to rape and kill Dru)? You punish people who go against your will, not carry it out.
Dru is still dead at a young age and her parents shouldn't be expected to go to the murderer, God, for comfort.
Killed by God, the only originator of causes according to you.
quote:
quote:
You and Lee believe God was the one "involved" in the crime. Will God punish God for having Dru brutally raped and killed?
You are are twisting what Lee and I are saying.
b.s. Lee said unless God has total control, then real harm could happen.
You say God is the only free will in the universe, thus the only originator of causes.
quote:
God does not commit evil...
God brings about evil
Using different verbs doesn't obscure your contradiction.
Lee, let's look at your illogic.
You say, unless God commits the original crime, He cannot bring good out the situation.
This is the same as saying, unless I'm the one who steals my daughter's bike, I cannot bring good out of that situation.
quote:
Again, I cannot speak for Lee, but the bible says we are not to fear those who can destroy and kill the body.
That's because God and the perpetrators of evil are distinct and different!
According to you, scripture says, don't fear those who can destroy and kill the body (all caused and controlled and designed by God), rather fear God.
Don't fear God, rather fear God.
Contradictions galore:
don't fear God, rather fear God
unless God commits the crime, He cannot bring good out of the situation
God doesn't commit evil but He brings about evil
God brings about the rape and murder, now go to Him for comfort
don't commit evil, rather be imitators of God, who commits evil
satan opposes God, if God does good, satan does evil, if God does evil, satan does good
what earthly father shall give you rape and murder when you ask for bread? um, God will sometimes....
effects choice our causes, no wait, causes choice our effects....
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 11/30/2004 10:28 AM (GMT -6) | | Wicker-
Simply do a word dearch for "evil" in the scripture. Here are a few passages you will find...
Jer. 32:23
And they came in, and possessed it; but they obeyed not thy voice, neither walked in thy law; they have done nothing of all that thou commandedst them to do: therefore thou hast caused all this evil to come upon them:
Jer 32:42
For thus saith the LORD; Like as I have brought all this great evil upon this people, so will I bring upon them all the good that I have promised them.
Jer 35:17
Therefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring upon Judah and upon all the inhabitants of Jerusalem all the evil that I have pronounced against them: because I have spoken unto them, but they have not heard; and I have called unto them, but they have not answered.
Jer 36:3
It may be that the house of Judah will hear all the evil which I purpose to do unto them; that they may return every man from his evil way; that I may forgive their iniquity and their sin.
(Note this passage specifically shows how God can bring about evil without sinning, but man cannot do evil without sinning!)
Amo 9:4
And though they go into captivity before their enemies, thence will I command the sword, and it shall slay them: and I will set mine eyes upon them for evil, and not for good.
Mic 1:12
For the inhabitant of Maroth waited carefully for good: but evil came down from the LORD unto the gate of Jerusalem.
Mic 2:3
Therefore thus saith the LORD; Behold, against this family do I devise an evil, from which ye shall not remove your necks; neither shall ye go haughtily: for this time [is] evil.
These are only a handful of the many verse where God states that He brings evil about. The bible also says that God is not tempted to sin. I must then believe that God can bring about evil without sinning. I also believe that the bible teaches that it is impossible for man to commit evil without sinning. When you contend with whether or not God brings about evil, you are not contending with just me and Lee, you are contending with what the bible clearly states.
I believe that God's dealings with mankind has His love and purposes always in view. God uses the evil which we experience during this lifetime to humble and prepare us for what is to follow. I believe this to be true for all mankind.
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the Wicker Man
Registered Member
Date Joined Sep 2004
Total Posts : 73
| Posted 11/30/2004 12:53 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
Simply do a word dearch for "evil" in the scripture. Here are a few passages you will find...
Ah yes, lock as ever, struggling valiantly to prove God is evil.
If God decreed that Dru be raped and murdered, as you believe, why are you talking about God punishing anyone? Is it illegal to obey God's decrees?
quote:
Jer. 32:23
And they came in, and possessed it; but they obeyed not thy voice, neither walked in thy law; they have done nothing of all that thou commandedst them to do: therefore thou hast caused all this evil to come upon them:
Punishment/consequences for disobedience does not equate to arbitrary, capricious evil.
quote:
Jer 32:42
For thus saith the LORD; Like as I have brought all this great evil upon this people, so will I bring upon them all the good that I have promised them.
Punishment/consequences for disobedience does not equate to arbitrary, capricious evil.
quote:
Jer 35:17
Therefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring upon Judah and upon all the inhabitants of Jerusalem all the evil that I have pronounced against them: because I have spoken unto them, but they have not heard; and I have called unto them, but they have not answered.
Punishment/consequences for disobedience does not equate to arbitrary, capricious evil.
quote:
Jer 36:3
It may be that the house of Judah will hear all the evil which I purpose to do unto them; that they may return every man from his evil way; that I may forgive their iniquity and their sin.
(Note this passage specifically shows how God can bring about evil without sinning, but man cannot do evil without sinning!)
Punishment/consequences for disobedience does not equate to arbitrary, capricious evil.
quote:
Amo 9:4
And though they go into captivity before their enemies, thence will I command the sword, and it shall slay them: and I will set mine eyes upon them for evil, and not for good.
Punishment/consequences for disobedience does not equate to arbitrary, capricious evil.
quote:
Mic 1:12
For the inhabitant of Maroth waited carefully for good: but evil came down from the LORD unto the gate of Jerusalem.
Punishment/consequences for disobedience does not equate to arbitrary, capricious evil.
quote:
Mic 2:3
Therefore thus saith the LORD; Behold, against this family do I devise an evil, from which ye shall not remove your necks; neither shall ye go haughtily: for this time [is] evil.
Punishment/consequences for disobedience does not equate to arbitrary, capricious evil.
Earthly governments punish wrong doers, nature punishes idiots who violate 'her' laws. But again, punishment/consequences of idiocy/disobedience do not equate to gratuitous, arbitrary evil.
Why does God punish, bring calamity on people who He decreed to disobey Him? You're contradicting yourself by quoting scripture! 
Their disobedience, if decreed by God as you believe, is doing BOTH, obeying the decree to disobey AND disobeying the commands of God to obey. You not only contradict scripture, you contradict yourself!
Why are you even arguing with us? According to you, God has decreed that we don't believe your contradictions AND God has decreed that we show you how contradictory you are! 
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 11/30/2004 2:28 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi everyone,
quote:
Lee: But if the answer to "What can man do?" is "A lot!" then I think we have reason to fear.
God_Is_Truth: man can only do harm to the body, not the soul.
But I would fear real harm to my body as well, harm that God did not intend, and would rather have had it prevented. And are not the body and soul connected? They can't kill the soul, but man for sure can injure it. And if real harm can happen to the body, then it can happen to the soul. Not to mention the devil, who generally operates on the soul directly.
quote:
"Every time you meet a difficulty, every time you find yourself in an impossible situation, ask yourself this question: Am I going to starve here, or am I going to eat the food that is set before me? If you are relying on the Lord for victory and let His overcoming life be manifested in you, you will find fresh nourishment and increased vitality in accepting as 'bread' those Anakim that are contesting your progress." (Watchman Nee)
GIT: i don't see it as a necessity to believe that God ordains something evil to bring about spiritual growth. you can grow and treat it in that way without believing that God ordained it to pass.
Why not, though? If God knew it could happen, wouldn't it be better if God had control of the evil? Knowing it would do us good, of course, but how can it do us nothing but good, if some of the evil is not what God intends?
Don't we then have second best?
quote:
GIT: how can all trouble and distress only do you good?
God is able! As in the cross…
quote:
Psalm 119:71 It was good for me to be afflicted so that I might learn your decrees.
so ordaining something is not the same as doing it?
I believe not, because God uses secondary causes:
JOB 1:15 ... and the Sabeans attacked and carried them off.
JOB 1:21 ... and the Lord has taken away.
JOB 1:22 In all this, Job did not sin by charging God with wrongdoing.
quote:
Lock: [Wicker Man's] questioning implies that Dru and those close to her have no hope beyond the grave.
Yes, exactly. Did Jesus not overcome even death in his resurrection?
quote:
Wicker Man: From the same God who took your hope before the grave.
Did you mean "her hope"?
John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"
quote:
WM: Lee still hasn't answered what real harm supercedes being brutally raped and killed.
And maybe you mean "what supercedes the real harm of …"?
Again, if a person is a believer, following the Lord, though hurt can come to them, they cannot be harmed:
Luke 21:16-19 You will be betrayed even by parents, brothers, relatives and friends, and they will put some of you to death. All men will hate you because of me. But not a hair of your head will perish. By standing firm you will gain life.
As Jesus asked Martha, "Do you believe this?"
quote:
WM: Killed by God, the only originator of causes according to you.
What has to be in view is the result, and the motive, though. A surgeon makes a knife wound, and they are doing good, a thief makes a similar knife wound, and is taken to jail, even if somehow he cut out a tumor in the process.
Can God used thieves to bring about good that could come in no other way?
John 12:6 He did not say this because he cared about the poor but because he was a thief…
John 13:30-31 As soon as Judas had taken the bread, he went out. And it was night. When he was gone, Jesus said, "Now is the Son of Man glorified…
There is no way to "overcome evil with good," if God is not in control of sinful actions. Not if evil really wins, sometimes...
1 John 3:8 The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work.
But if the devil really does accomplish some of his purpose, to "steal, kill and destroy," and if there is sometimes no remedy, then the devil's work is not destroyed.
Romans 8:37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us.
All these things, not just some, and this is impossible, unless evil never has the upper hand.
quote:
WM: Why does God punish, bring calamity on people who He decreed to disobey Him?
Because their motive was different than God's, and the result God intended, and brought about, was also different:
Gen. 50:20 "And as for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive."
"The text says, 'You meant evil against me.' Evil is a feminine singular noun. Then it says, 'God meant it for good.' The word 'it' is a feminine singular suffix that can only agree with the antecedent feminine singular noun, 'evil.' And the verb 'meant' is the same past tense in both cases. You meant evil against me in the past, as you were doing it. And God meant that very evil, not as evil, but as good in the past as you were doing it. And to make this perfectly clear, Psalm 105:17 says about Joseph's coming to Egypt, '[God] sent a man before them, Joseph, who was sold as a slave.' God sent him. God did not find him there owing to evil choices, and then try to make something good come of it. Therefore this text stands as a kind of paradigm for how to understand the evil will of man within the sovereign will of God." (John Piper)
Blessings,
Lee
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the Wicker Man
Registered Member
Date Joined Sep 2004
Total Posts : 73
| Posted 11/30/2004 3:03 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Lee Merrill
Did you mean "her hope"?
Her hope of a long and prosperous life.
According to you two, God decreed that her life be ended at a young age, brutally. lock said:
quote:
Your questioning implies that Dru and those close to her have no hope beyond the grave.
If God decreed that her hope of a long and prosperous life not happen by having her brutally killed at a young age, what "hope beyond the grave" can she have?
The God who decreed her death before the grave, she couldn't have any hope in Him "beyond the grave".
quote:
John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"
Yes. It says nothing of God killing me.
John 10: "the thief comes only to steal and to kill and to destroy. I came so they might have life, abundant life."
You must not believe this because you two posit that God is the thief as well. You believe God decreed that Dru be killed WAY SHORT of an abundant life. So if He failed that promise, the eternal life promise can be written off as well.
quote:
quote:
WM: Lee still hasn't answered what real harm supercedes being brutally raped and killed.
And maybe you mean "what supercedes the real harm of …"?
You say, unless God was in total control of Dru's death, real harm could have happened to her.
I asked, what's real harm compared to being brutally raped and murdered?
So what's the real harm?
If God hadn't decreed that Dru be brutally raped and murdered at a young age, then real harm could have happened, like.........?
rape, murder and a hangnail?
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Mayflower
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 445
| Posted 11/30/2004 5:45 PM (GMT -6) | | Excuse me...
I don't want to derail the dialogue, but just wanted to
interject a quick "thank-you" to John for the clarity of his explanation.
Peace & blessings,
<><
------------------------------
JEE wrote:
quote:
According to scholars and commentators I'm familiar with, the Hebrew word translated as "evil" in the above verses is better translated "calamity."
No one's disputing that God can and does sometimes send calamity upon nations in order to chasten or punish them. In this case, it is not moral evil God is doing, but is instead temporal judgment/punishment/chastening, in order to avert eternal calamity from befalling them.
John
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 12/1/2004 3:42 AM (GMT -6) | | Wicker-
What sin did Job commit? Satan could not have brought any of the evil against him if it were not for God's permission.
What sin did Joseph commit? The bible clearly states through Joseph's words to his brothers that God sent Joseph to Egypt ahead of them in order to save them.
What sin did Jesus commit? The bible also clearly teaches that God brought about this very evil which gives you salvation.
Your issue with evil today, as seen in the horrible crime committed against Dru and her family, is that you do not see the big picture. Somewhere down the line this will all be for the good of all parties involved; God, Dru and her family, and the man who committed the crime. Your focus is on this life, even though we are told to consider ourselves already dead and resurrected and seated with Christ in the heavenlies. Our hope is not that we have a long and prosperous life now in the flesh, but our hope is spending the eons and beyond in our glorified, spiritual, incorruptable, immortal body with Christ.
quote:
According to scholars and commentators I'm familiar with, the Hebrew word translated as "evil" in the above verses is better translated "calamity."
No one's disputing that God can and does sometimes send calamity upon nations in order to chasten or punish them. In this case, it is not moral evil God is doing, but is instead temporal judgment/punishment/chastening, in order to avert eternal calamity from befalling them.
John-
I agree with you in that God brings about evil without sinning. There is a difference between evil and moral evil or sin in the bible. Evil (raa) in itself is not always sin. The bible speaks of "evil" beasts. Does this mean that the animals are sinners, of course not! But it is impossible for man to bring about evil without sinning. Did not men commit sins against Israel when taking Jerusalem? Where not people (even children) killed? Were not women rape and property plundered?
I believe that all evil is temporal and when the intended purpose for evil is met, then it will be done away with. It is those who believe in eternal torment in hell who make evil eternal.
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JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 12/1/2004 4:15 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Mayflower
Excuse me...
I don't want to derail the dialogue, but just wanted to
interject a quick "thank-you" to John for the clarity of his explanation.
Peace & blessings,
<><
------------------------------
JEE wrote:
quote:
According to scholars and commentators I'm familiar with, the Hebrew word translated as "evil" in the above verses is better translated "calamity."
No one's disputing that God can and does sometimes send calamity upon nations in order to chasten or punish them. In this case, it is not moral evil God is doing, but is instead temporal judgment/punishment/chastening, in order to avert eternal calamity from befalling them.
John
Aw shucks, Mayflower, you're making me blush. 
I wish I could take original credit for this; if I recall correctly, I first came across it in Adam Clarke's classic commentary on the whole Bible, regarding the somewhat enigmatic phrase in Isaiah, "I create good and evil." Clarke's commentary is available online (and searchable!) free of charge at studylight.org
Anyway, glad to be of service.
John
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 12/1/2004 8:28 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
So, in your estimation, incarcerating criminals (or even a police officer stopping someone from killing someone else by using force to kill them) is evil?
Your question involves a larger issue. The bible teaches that government and leaders have been put in place by God to keep order. When you ask "is it evil?", I first have to ask for clarification. Do you mean "is it moral evil (or sin)?" or is it evil in its plain sense? When looking at law, an evil is rendered for an evil, i.e. eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, a life for a life, etc. Even though it is justifiable through the law, it is still evil. Just as when God justly brings evil about in order chastise. Even looking at the sacrifices of the law, is it not evil to kill an animal for the sake of covering sins committed by a man? What did the animal do to deserve death? Which brings us to the greatest evil of all time, Christ's death on the cross, which was necessary for our reconciliation. What did Christ do to deserve death? Is not His death the greatest evil of all?
The issue becomes more complicated when asking if we, as saved individuals are to take part in secular government. Are we to take the life of others claiming justification through wielding the sword of the government? Are we to take the lives of those whom our government has deemed our enemy? Are we to love our enemy? I agree with Doc in that we should not be wielding the sword of secular government. I do not believe saved individuals are justified taking lives even though sanctioned by the goverment to do so. I believe government is necessary, but I am not to be a part of it, just as I am not to be of this world. There will be no true godly government on earth until Christ Himself is reigning during the millennium.
In answer to you question, yes, I think secular government is an evil necessity during this evil age or man's day. I am very thankful to have been born into a country with a government which allows me to worship God.
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God_Is_Truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2003
Total Posts : 33
| Posted 12/1/2004 1:12 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Lee Merrill
Hi everyone,
But I would fear real harm to my body as well, harm that God did not intend, and would rather have had it prevented. And are not the body and soul connected? They can't kill the soul, but man for sure can injure it. And if real harm can happen to the body, then it can happen to the soul. Not to mention the devil, who generally operates on the soul directly.
yes, that is true. but they cannot kill the soul, that's what i was getting at.
quote:
Why not, though? If God knew it could happen, wouldn't it be better if God had control of the evil? Knowing it would do us good, of course, but how can it do us nothing but good, if some of the evil is not what God intends?
Don't we then have second best?
who says God controls the evil? and i do not affirm that all evil is God intended.
quote:
God is able! As in the cross…
so everything Jesus went through was good?
quote:
I believe not, because God uses secondary causes:
JOB 1:15 ... and the Sabeans attacked and carried them off.
JOB 1:21 ... and the Lord has taken away.
JOB 1:22 In all this, Job did not sin by charging God with wrongdoing.
what does it mean to ordain then? | | Back to Top | | |
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Mayflower
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 445
| Posted 12/1/2004 1:23 PM (GMT -6) | | .
__________________________________________
Wonderful resource!...
I sincerely thank you, John!
Bible commentaries from StudyLight.org
http://studylight.org/com/
.
__________________________________________
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 12/1/2004 4:36 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi everyone,
quote:
Wicker man: The God who decreed her death before the grave, she couldn't have any hope in Him "beyond the grave".
Every child of God has hope beyond the grave:
Revelation 2:10 Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.
Life may not turn out like we expect, but does that mean we must have gotten less than God's best?
quote:
WM: You must not believe this because you two posit that God is the thief as well. You believe God decreed that Dru be killed WAY SHORT of an abundant life. So if He failed that promise, the eternal life promise can be written off as well.
Life with God is abundant. Eternal life is also quite long. God gives, all the time, to all his children.
quote:
WM: You say, unless God was in total control of Dru's death, real harm could have happened to her.
I asked, what's real harm compared to being brutally raped and murdered?
Is there any limit to God's ability to overcome evil?
John 21:19 Jesus said this to indicate the kind of death by which Peter would glorify God. Then he said to him, "Follow me!"
quote:
WM: Like maybe He killed a tumor in her that way…
This was an analogy, to illustrate the point that the motive, and the result, is what is important. Are you disputing this point?
quote:
God_Is_Truth: who says God controls the evil? and i do not affirm that all evil is God intended.
We do have indications of God's control even over evil, though:
Lamentations 3:37-38 Who can speak and have it happen if the Lord has not decreed it? Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that both calamities and good things come?
quote:
Lee: God is able! As in the cross…
GIT: so everything Jesus went through was good?
Yes, he overcame it all:
Luke 23:28 Jesus turned and said to them, "Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for me…"
quote:
Lee: … because God uses secondary causes:
JOB 1:15 ... and the Sabeans attacked and carried them off.
JOB 1:21 ... and the Lord has taken away.
JOB 1:22 In all this, Job did not sin by charging God with wrongdoing.
GIT: what does it mean to ordain then?
To know how an event will turn out, and how the event can be brought about, but not to do the sin himself:
Job 1:8 Then the Lord said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job?"
James 5:11 As you know, we consider blessed those who have persevered. You have heard of Job's perseverance and have seen what the Lord finally brought about. The Lord is full of compassion and mercy.
Blessings,
Lee
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AtTheWell
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2004
Total Posts : 133
| Posted 12/5/2004 7:15 PM (GMT -6) | | Forgive me for interjecting here, I know I haven't posted throughout this thread, however Lee could you clarify this a little, how you apply your view is interesting, and being new here I don't know the history of it, please bear with me:
quote:
Is there any limit to God's ability to overcome evil?
Scripturally no. But according to this there may be?
quote:
There is no way to "overcome evil with good," if God is not in control of sinful actions. Not if evil really wins, sometimes...
Doesn't this severely limit God's ability to overcome evil with good? Is exhaustive control the only means? If Christ is the image of the Father can you please give me examples of His mirroring exhaustive control so I can work this thought out further in my head?
And I do have to admit Lee, I am a little on the irritated side of using the molestation analogy-- WOW I couldn't imagine counseling a child that had been molested by saying: can't you see it didn't really harm you when that man... etc... It was just God's way of saying "I love you enough to discipline you", now go to Him and tell Him how thankful you are for this incident. Can you picture it???? It kind of makes me nauseous. No offense to your post, please understand that I am striving for how I really can work this out in my reality.
Peace,
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 12/6/2004 5:23 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi ATW,
quote:
Lee: There is no way to "overcome evil with good," if God is not in control of sinful actions. Not if evil really wins, sometimes...
ATW: Doesn't this severely limit God's ability to overcome evil with good?
How can God overcome evil all the time though, if evil really wins sometimes? That is my question here.
quote:
ATW: If Christ is the image of the Father can you please give me examples of His mirroring exhaustive control so I can work this thought out further in my head?
I'm not quite sure what you are asking here, though, by "His" I assume you mean Christ, by "mirroring" do you mean "How does Christ show us that God is in complete control?"
If so, I would refer to this verse:
Matthew 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me."
Which means there is no authority outside of Jesus, thus he is indeed in complete control.
quote:
ATW: I couldn't imagine counseling a child that had been molested by saying: can't you see it didn't really harm you when that man... etc... It was just God's way of saying "I love you enough to discipline you"
Certainly there is not always just this purpose in suffering.
Philippians 3:10 I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings…
Now why couldn't we say "It didn't harm you," if that was true?
Proverbs 12:21 No harm befalls the righteous, but the wicked have their fill of trouble.
Would it be a better situation, to have to say, "Yes, you were irreparably harmed, some of that damage can never be for good."
quote:
… now go to Him and tell Him how thankful you are for this incident. Can you picture it????
Luke 22:17 After taking the cup, he gave thanks …
Blessings,
Lee
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AtTheWell
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2004
Total Posts : 133
| Posted 12/6/2004 7:08 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
I'm not quite sure what you are asking here, though, by "His" I assume you mean Christ, by "mirroring" do you mean "How does Christ show us that God is in complete control?"
Lee,
Sorry for the confusion, see if this helps...
I start with the belief that Christ and God are one. I am assuming we are on the same page with that......
Christ said when you see me you see the Father-- like a mirror image to me, just a visual term-- I'm looking for examples where Christ chose this exhaustive control of evil in His relationships with people.
quote:
How can God overcome evil all the time though, if evil really wins sometimes? That is my question here.
I don't know....What's the difference between God overcoming evil all the time and ultimately, for all time? Gotta check that out.
If evil doesn't assert itself in the temporal with a truly harmful effect, then what is the point of pretending there is any real evil? Just so we can suffer with Christ? If evil isn't really evil it is just a different way of God controlling things. What I mean is-- If evil has actually no reality to it, in the sense that God has already overcome it in every moment by moment situation, NOW, with absolutely no compliance on our part, why isn't this heaven? Or are we just stuck on the definition of the word harm.
quote:
Would it be a better situation, to have to say, "Yes, you were irreparably harmed, some of that damage can never be for good."
Can you give me an example maybe of the good I could share that God might intend by completely controlling the act of a baby's insides, rupturing of the uterus, herniated bowels, etc... being literally torn open due to a man's not really harmful choice? I'm not going for shock value here, it really does freak me out! (Yes I do think that it would be a better situation here, but certainly not stop there add that one can overcome through Christ, especially by calling evil evil, it sets people free.) I keep reading your posts as, "Molesting children is ok because it doesn't really harm them." Maybe just the sensitive nerve.
Or what about the possibility of the inability to ever have a truly intimate relationship with God, because of the imagery that the misuse of the word "father" invokes? Suppose it even causes one to REJECT God-- is this not real harm? Or can we defer that to universalism? Or does this evil that doesn't really harm only refer to the saints???? Maybe I'm missing your point-- though I have a tendency to "not get it" at times. Thanks for your patience and your responses, I know I have something like a billion questions here. 
(And only because I am often in between these ideas, saying, yeah! I get it... oh but wait, what about this.... More relationally, I understand that temporal suffering for Christ does not produce eternal harm, actually eternal upbuilding, however the specific topics here : being molested, or being the molester, I can't quantify these acts as suffering for Christ alone, suffering for the good as in 1Pet.2:20. If being molested isn't really being harmed, then at least being the molester could be real harm, couldn't it? But no, you say God is in control of the sinful actions. What good thing does this teach the molester? Yet still I don't know the heart of either, or the history, only God does. See, there I go.)
Oh, I nearly forgot...
quote:
Matthew 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me."
Is it definite that all authority has to mean exhaustive control of sinful action?
And..............
quote:
Luke 22:17 After taking the cup, he gave thanks …
I guess I understood this as, Christ giving thanks to God for the sacrifice for all, whom He loves... not sure how molestation compares.
Thanks.
Peace,
ATW | | Back to Top | | |
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God_Is_Truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2003
Total Posts : 33
| Posted 12/7/2004 9:43 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Lee Merrill
Hi everyone,
quote:
God_Is_Truth: who says God controls the evil? and i do not affirm that all evil is God intended.
We do have indications of God's control even over evil, though:
Lamentations 3:37-38 Who can speak and have it happen if the Lord has not decreed it? Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that both calamities and good things come?
the first part of that verse is about false prophets, the second is about things that true prophets speak, both blessings and judgements upon peoples. there is nothing here about day to day evils being ordained or planned by God.
quote:
Lee: God is able! As in the cross…
GIT: so everything Jesus went through was good?
Yes, he overcame it all:
Luke 23:28 Jesus turned and said to them, "Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for me…"
overcoming all implies that not all of it was good though! if it was all good, what was there to overcome?
quote:
quote:
Lee: … because God uses secondary causes:
JOB 1:15 ... and the Sabeans attacked and carried them off.
JOB 1:21 ... and the Lord has taken away.
JOB 1:22 In all this, Job did not sin by charging God with wrongdoing.
GIT: what does it mean to ordain then?
To know how an event will turn out, and how the event can be brought about, but not to do the sin himself:
Job 1:8 Then the Lord said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job?"
James 5:11 As you know, we consider blessed those who have persevered. You have heard of Job's perseverance and have seen what the Lord finally brought about. The Lord is full of compassion and mercy.
Blessings,
Lee
so it's just a reference to God's foreknowledge saying "here's how it's going to be" ? | | Back to Top | | |
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 12/7/2004 5:11 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi everyone,
quote:
ATW: I'm looking for examples where Christ chose this exhaustive control of evil in His relationships with people.
This verse is not while Jesus was on earth, but it does address this, I think:
Revelation 2:10 Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.
How could they not fear, if God might allow evil enough control to do real harm? And also we may look here:
Luke 21:16-18 You will be betrayed even by parents, brothers, relatives and friends, and they will put some of you to death. All men will hate you because of me. But not a hair of your head will perish.
"Not a hair will perish" implies complete control of evil here, I think.
quote:
Lee: How can God overcome evil all the time though, if evil really wins sometimes?
ATW: What's the difference between God overcoming evil all the time and ultimately, for all time?
Because in any place where evil wins, and the damage results in real harm, that is never undone, that evil was not completely overcome.
quote:
If evil doesn't assert itself in the temporal with a truly harmful effect, then what is the point of pretending there is any real evil?
Just because you overcome an opponent, without them harming you, doesn't mean there was no opponent, the opponent can still have been quite real.
quote:
What I mean is-- If evil has actually no reality to it, in the sense that God has already overcome it in every moment by moment situation, NOW, with absolutely no compliance on our part, why isn't this heaven?
Heaven is being completely outside any effects of sin, that is the difference, I would say. Yet we can have complete victory over evil, now:
1 John 5:4 … for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith.
2 Corinthians 2:14 But thanks be to God, who always leads us in triumphal procession in Christ…
quote:
Lee: Would it be a better situation, to have to say, "Yes, you were irreparably harmed, some of that damage can never be for good."
ATW: Can you give me an example maybe of the good I could share that God might intend by completely controlling the act of a baby's insides, rupturing of the uterus, herniated bowels, etc... being literally torn open due to a man's not really harmful choice? I'm not going for shock value here, it really does freak me out! (Yes I do think that it would be a better situation here, but certainly not stop there add that one can overcome through Christ, especially by calling evil evil, it sets people free.)
Evil is indeed evil, why does evil have to accomplish its purpose, in order to be evil, though? Is an plan to cause harm only evil if it succeeds in harming?
And if we can overcome through Christ, then that is just what I am saying, overcoming the evil implies that its purpose was actually thwarted, and came to nothing.
How can we overcome evil, really overcome it, if the purpose in injuring someone, of really harming them, is accomplished?
quote:
I keep reading your posts as, "Molesting children is ok because it doesn't really harm them." Maybe just the sensitive nerve.
No, molesting children is not ok! Not harming them, in spite of the worst evil, is also ok. Why is this an unacceptable alternative? I don't understand...
"Whosoever drinks of the water that I give him, shall never thirst."
"To know that shall means shall, that never means never and that thirst means any unsatisfied need, may be one of the greatest revelations God ever made to our souls."
-Hudson Taylor
quote:
Suppose it even causes one to REJECT God-- is this not real harm?
I have been speaking about people who love God, if we wander from the shepherd, there are wolves out there, and real harm can be done, harm will come to the wolves, as well.
Luke 12:5 Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him.
quote:
Or can we defer that to universalism?
God can redeem sinners, and even the worst of sinners, maybe even the worst of sins. We shall see.
1 Timothy 1:14-15 The grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus. Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners-- of whom I am the worst.
quote:
… the specific topics here : being molested, or being the molester, I can't quantify these acts as suffering for Christ alone, suffering for the good as in 1Pet.2:20.
Certainly the second isn't, and even the first is not, for someone who does not love God.
quote:
If being molested isn't really being harmed, then at least being the molester could be real harm, couldn't it? But no, you say God is in control of the sinful actions.
Yes, the molester gets real harm, even though God controls even sinful actions:
Isaiah 10:12 When the Lord has finished all his work against Mount Zion and Jerusalem, he will say, "I will punish the king of Assyria for the willful pride of his heart and the haughty look in his eyes."
quote:
Matthew 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me."
ATW: Is it definite that all authority has to mean exhaustive control of sinful action?
I think it does, since if evil can accomplish any of its purpose, and cross God's will, that is authority, apart from Christ.
quote:
Luke 22:17 After taking the cup, he gave thanks …
ATW: I guess I understood this as, Christ giving thanks to God for the sacrifice for all, whom He loves... not sure how molestation compares.
Jesus was facing abuse of the worst kind, and he gave thanks, while holding the cup that represented that very suffering, yes, Jesus gave thanks for the sacrifice, and was not harmed in any way by making it:
Luke 23:28 Jesus turned and said to them, "Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for me…"
Colossians 2:15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.
quote:
Lamentations 3:37-38 Who can speak and have it happen if the Lord has not decreed it? Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that both calamities and good things come?
God_Is_Truth: the first part of that verse is about false prophets, the second is about things that true prophets speak, both blessings and judgements upon peoples.
I think this passage indicates more, though:
Lamentations 3:35-36 … to deny a man his rights before the Most High, to deprive a man of justice-- would not the Lord see such things?
Then we have this verse. Thus I think this implies that God is indeed in complete control, even when people are being unjustly treated, the Lord sees, and is not idle, his purposes are being accomplished, and only his purposes, and they are good.
Lamentations 3:31-33 For men are not cast off by the Lord forever. Though he brings grief, he will show compassion, so great is his unfailing love. For he does not willingly bring affliction or grief to the children of men.
quote:
Lee: Yes, [Jesus] overcame it all…
GIT: overcoming all implies that not all of it was good though! if it was all good, what was there to overcome?
No, the crucifixion of Jesus was indeed evil, and it was overcome, I agree it was not all good, but it all resulted in good, and did not harm Jesus, that is why he said "Do not weep for me."
quote:
GIT: what does it mean to ordain then?
Lee: To know how an event will turn out, and how the event can be brought about, but not to do the sin himself:
Job 1:8 Then the Lord said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job?"
GIT: so it's just a reference to God's foreknowledge saying "here's how it's going to be" ?
No, God brings it about, too, but not by doing the act directly, himself, that is what I believe.
Blessings,
Lee
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The Russian Judge
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2004
Total Posts : 7
| Posted 12/7/2004 5:17 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Lee Merrill
No, the crucifixion of Jesus was indeed evil, and it was overcome, I agree it was not all good, but it all resulted in good, and did not harm Jesus, that is why he said "Do not weep for me."
The crucifixion of Jesus didn't harm him?
* . . o .
o . o * o
. * . * .
* . . o
o . o *
. * . * .
what are you smoking?
He sweat blood in the garden.
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-t018.html
quote:
Although this medical condition is relatively rare, according to Dr. Frederick Zugibe (Chief Medical Examiner of Rockland County, New York) it is well-known, and there have been many cases of it. The clinical term is "hematohidrosis." "Around the sweat glands, there are multiple blood vessels in a net-like form." Under the pressure of great stress the vessels constrict. Then as the anxiety passes "the blood vessels dilate to the point of rupture. The blood goes into the sweat glands." As the sweat glands are producing a lot of sweat, it pushes the blood to the surface - coming out as droplets of blood mixed with sweat.
What was the source of Jesus’ great stress and anguish? Clearly he was in intense spiritual agony.
A physcian looks at the death of Jesus
http://www.holytrinity.ok.goarch.org/Interesting%20Stuff/Special%20Communication%20Plus%20Picture.html
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 12/7/2004 5:30 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Lee: ... it all resulted in good, and did not harm Jesus, that is why he said "Do not weep for me."
The Russian Judge: The crucifixion of Jesus didn't harm him?
...
He sweat blood in the garden.
Jesus did endure great pain, more than any person has ever experienced, he bore the sin of the world.
And he took it away, it did not overcome him, he overcame it, completely, and he was not harmed.
Hebrews 7:16 ... the power of an indestructible life.
Is it necessary for pain to always cause damage, for lasting harm to be done, in every instance?
"Do not weep for me," Jesus said...
Blessings,
Lee
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AtTheWell
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2004
Total Posts : 133
| Posted 12/7/2004 6:39 PM (GMT -6) | | Thanks Lee. Intriguing use of scripture. I appreciate your responses.
quote:
Because in any place where evil wins, and the damage results in real harm, that is never undone, that evil was not completely overcome.
I still think I am differing on what harm actually means here. That's the difference to me, not whether or not God has the ability to overcome it, at whatever point in "time". I don't believe he has to be in control of it to the point of causing it so he can overcome it-- that isn't overcoming really because there's nothing to overcome if it isn't really harmful. Now I'm confusing myself... Bottom line: Why limit God to only being able to overcome what he has exhaustive control of?
And as far as comparing this to a child molestation:
quote:
Jesus was facing abuse of the worst kind, and he gave thanks, while holding the cup that represented that very suffering, yes, Jesus gave thanks for the sacrifice, and was not harmed in any way by making it:
You are correct Jesus CHOSE to comply with the Father's will-- however, I believe a child, by enduring the acts of molestation,is not choosing to comply with the Father's will, neither is the molester...and am I understanding you correctly that this molestation would be the Father's will, because He is in control of it?
Russian Judge-- this is what I'm smoking... (been dying to use that little guy)
thanks for the link, I think I used this same medical report in research for a group study on the Blood some years ago. Terrifying detail, that brings it right down to reality for me--
Peace and blessings,
ATW
Peace,
ATW | | Back to Top | | |
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