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The Russian Judge
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2004
Total Posts : 7
| Posted 12/8/2004 1:48 AM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
Originally posted by Lee Merrill
Jesus did endure great pain, more than any person has ever experienced, he bore the sin of the world.
And physical disfigurement.
When He comes back the Jews will recognize Him due to His piercings.
permanent holes
Zechariah 12:10
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for [his] only [son], and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn.
John 20:
25 So the other disciples were saying to him, "We have seen the Lord!" But he said to them, "Unless I see in His hands the imprint of the nails, and put my finger into the place of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe."
26 After eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors having been shut, and stood in their midst and said, "Peace be with you."
27 Then He said to Thomas, "Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing."
I think I know what point you're trying to make, that Jesus overcame His sufferings, but to say He didn't suffer harm is stupid. He suffered much harm.
That's what Mel Gibson's "The Passion" was all about.
You're trying to cover up one bit of idiocy, that unless God has meticulous control we'd suffer "real harm", with another idiocy, that Jesus didn't suffer harm at His crucifixion.
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The Russian Judge
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2004
Total Posts : 7
| Posted 12/8/2004 2:33 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by AtTheWell
quote:
Because in any place where evil wins, and the damage results in real harm, that is never undone, that evil was not completely overcome.
I still think I am differing on what harm actually means here. That's the difference to me, not whether or not God has the ability to overcome it, at whatever point in "time". I don't believe he has to be in control of it to the point of causing it so he can overcome it-- that isn't overcoming really because there's nothing to overcome if it isn't really harmful. Now I'm confusing myself... Bottom line: Why limit God to only being able to overcome what he has exhaustive control of?
Great point, ATW. We, ourselves, can overcome evil without being the cause of it. To say God can't overcome evil unless He's the cause of it is a picture of an inept God.
My daughters get hurt, I can comfort them EVEN THOUGH I wasn't the one who hurt them.
Lee thinks that God HAS TO BE the one that hurts them in order for Him to be able to comfort them. Sheer lunacy.
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AtTheWell
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2004
Total Posts : 133
| Posted 12/8/2004 8:56 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Russian Judge wrote:
Great point, ATW. We, ourselves, can overcome evil without being the cause of it. To say God can't overcome evil unless He's the cause of it is a picture of an inept God.
Thanks, and right back at ya!
And thank you Lee, I believe I am clarifying for myself what exhaustive control looks like when applied,... Fatalism, Insha'Allah, as Islam puts it-- and I've seen how that works into the reality of moment to moment life, it's not even funny....This is why I lean more and more to the OV-- but still have lots of questions to work out.
Peace,
ATW
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God_Is_Truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2003
Total Posts : 33
| Posted 12/8/2004 11:40 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Lee Merrill
quote:
Lamentations 3:37-38 Who can speak and have it happen if the Lord has not decreed it? Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that both calamities and good things come?
God_Is_Truth: the first part of that verse is about false prophets, the second is about things that true prophets speak, both blessings and judgements upon peoples.
I think this passage indicates more, though:
Lamentations 3:35-36 … to deny a man his rights before the Most High, to deprive a man of justice-- would not the Lord see such things?
this definately speaks of God's justice, how the wicked will not go unpunished, but i don't see anything about God controlling the actions.
quote:
Then we have this verse. Thus I think this implies that God is indeed in complete control, even when people are being unjustly treated, the Lord sees, and is not idle, his purposes are being accomplished, and only his purposes, and they are good.
Lamentations 3:31-33 For men are not cast off by the Lord forever. Though he brings grief, he will show compassion, so great is his unfailing love. For he does not willingly bring affliction or grief to the children of men.
hmm, i see that the Lord is not one to continually inflict punishment upon a person for an act of unrighteousness here. also that he doesn't willingly hurt his children. so i could maybe see some of your point, but i think it's a stretch.
quote:
quote:
Lee: Yes, [Jesus] overcame it all…
GIT: overcoming all implies that not all of it was good though! if it was all good, what was there to overcome?
No, the crucifixion of Jesus was indeed evil, and it was overcome, I agree it was not all good, but it all resulted in good, and did not harm Jesus, that is why he said "Do not weep for me."
pretty much covered already by others, would just add that he said "do not weep for me" because he would be raised again very soon.
quote:
quote:
GIT: what does it mean to ordain then?
Lee: To know how an event will turn out, and how the event can be brought about, but not to do the sin himself:
Job 1:8 Then the Lord said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job?"
GIT: so it's just a reference to God's foreknowledge saying "here's how it's going to be" ?
No, God brings it about, too, but not by doing the act directly, himself, that is what I believe.
Blessings,
Lee
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 12/8/2004 3:07 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi everyone,
quote:
ATW: I still think I am differing on what harm actually means here. That's the difference to me, not whether or not God has the ability to overcome it, at whatever point in "time".
But if some aspect of an evil deed cannot ever be overcome, is that not harm, in the worst sense of the word? Real damage, with no recovery ever for that actual damage?
quote:
I don't believe he has to be in control of it to the point of causing it so he can overcome it…
No, the point I am making it is that if someone else has power to cause evil, outside the will of God, to cross God's will, then that means real damage can be done, that has no remedy for it. Thus God must be in complete control, or else there can be real harm done to a child of God, contrary to his promise.
quote:
Why limit God to only being able to overcome what he has exhaustive control of?
Because without complete control, there can be harm to someone who loves God, that cannot be overcome.
quote:
You are correct Jesus CHOSE to comply with the Father's will-- however, I believe a child, by enduring the acts of molestation, is not choosing to comply with the Father's will…
I don't believe it was possible for Jesus to rebel against the Father, though.
Matthew 26:24 The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him…
And I'm sure most children, and many adults, in times of suffering, are not conscious of choosing, or not choosing, the Father's will. Yet as a result of good that can be seen, through insight that can come later, that choice can be made, and be as real as if it were done at that moment:
Genesis 50:20 You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives.
And are you implying that God could not stop the molestation? Why does he not stop it, if he sees it would do real harm to someone who is trusting in him?
quote:
… am I understanding you correctly that this molestation would be the Father's will, because He is in control of it?
I hold that all suffering is for a good purpose, for those who love God, that is indeed a clear verse in Scripture, and thus this good, and even the deed, is in the Father's will.
Again, are you implying that someone can damage someone else, contrary to the will of God? What are the limits, then? It appears that the line is not drawn even at the worst forms of suffering, that no possible evil is exempted, and thus no child of God can be sure to spared from any amount of harm that results from the kinds of sins that are being discussed here.
Why is this better than God being able to bring good out of every instance of suffering? That is what I am wondering.
Why are people not eager for God to really overcome absolutely all evil for them, and for all God's children?
Evil does indeed happen to everyone, why are we not eager for God to overcome it, so that no real, irreparable harm results?
quote:
RJ: I think I know what point you're trying to make, that Jesus overcame His sufferings, but to say He didn't suffer harm is stupid. He suffered much harm.
I think you are equating harm with pain here, though, but is pain always harmful in some way? Why did God design the world so it could become this way, then, and why doesn't he stop it?
quote:
You're trying to cover up one bit of idiocy, that unless God has meticulous control we'd suffer "real harm", with another idiocy, that Jesus didn't suffer harm at His crucifixion.
Please, could you at least speak respectfully?
And could you also please address my points, and show where I am mistaken? Saying "that's idiocy" does not advance the discussion of either point.
quote:
We, ourselves, can overcome evil without being the cause of it.
Yes, but we cannot overcome all evil without being in control of it. Which includes controlling the causes of evil.
quote:
Lee thinks that God HAS TO BE the one that hurts them in order for Him to be able to comfort them.
No, I say there are secondary causes, that God does not do sinful actions, when he ordains them:
Job 1:8 Then the Lord said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job?"
quote:
ATW: I believe I am clarifying for myself what exhaustive control looks like when applied,... Fatalism, Insha'Allah, as Islam puts it…
This concept in Islam is not what I am saying, though, fatalism does not hold to a good purpose in all circumstances, nor is there any guarantee of overcoming evil in any given instance, much less in all instances.
quote:
Lamentations 3:35-36 … to deny a man his rights before the Most High, to deprive a man of justice-- would not the Lord see such things?
GIT: this definately speaks of God's justice, how the wicked will not go unpunished, but i don't see anything about God controlling the actions.
Yes, that is true, for that we have to check verse 37:
Lamentations 3:37 Who can speak and have it happen if the Lord has not decreed it?
This follows immediately, and indicates that even times of injustice, even acts of injustice, are under God's complete control:
Lamentations 3:38 Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that both calamities and good things come?
And for a good purpose:
Lamentations 3:25 The Lord is good to those whose hope is in him, to the one who seeks him.
quote:
would just add that he said "do not weep for me" because he would be raised again very soon.
But Jesus was saying "don't weep now," which I think indicates that even the cross did not harm him, that expressions of sympathy, though commendable, were not actually in order:
Philippians 2:17-18 But even if I am being poured out like a drink offering on the sacrifice and service coming from your faith, I am glad and rejoice with all of you. So you too should be glad and rejoice with me.
"I am glad," "you too should be glad," this is a very similar statement from Paul, everyone could rejoice now, for there would be no harm, first victory:
Romans 8:36-37 "For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered." No, in all these things we are more than conquerors…
And then reward:
1 Peter 3:14 But even if you should suffer for what is right, you are blessed. "Do not fear what they fear; do not be frightened."
And not "will be conquerors," but are, and the word is literally "super-conquering," it's a verb, in continuous present tense.
quote:
Lee: God brings it about, too, but not by doing the act directly, himself, that is what I believe.
GIT: so secondary causes?
Yes…
Acts 4:28 They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen.
And this was considering the cross. And in view of this:
Acts 4:31 … they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God boldly.
Hebrews 13:6 So we say with confidence, "The Lord is my helper; I will not be afraid. What can man do to me?"
Blessings,
Lee
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The Russian Judge
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2004
Total Posts : 7
| Posted 12/8/2004 3:23 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Lee Merrill
quote:
RJ: I think I know what point you're trying to make, that Jesus overcame His sufferings, but to say He didn't suffer harm is stupid. He suffered much harm.
I think you are equating harm with pain here, though, but is pain always harmful in some way? Why did God design the world so it could become this way, then, and why doesn't he stop it?
No, I'm equating harm with Jesus' back being ripped to shreds by the whips; I'm equating harm with the holes in his ankles and wrists that He still has (having shown them to Thomas, the Jews seeing the holes when He returns); I'm equating harm with His heart burst so that blood AND plasma came out; I'm equating harm with the spear hole in His side; I'm equating harm with legs broken so that He would not be able to raise Himself up to breathe and suffocate instead. You make it sound like He only suffered minor discomfort.
Jesus suffered REAL harm and REAL pain at His crucifixtion.
"Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you" -- Jesus
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 12/8/2004 3:36 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi RJ,
quote:
Lee: I think you are equating harm with pain here, though, but is pain always harmful in some way? Why did God design the world so it could become this way, then, and why doesn't he stop it?
RJ: No, I'm equating harm with Jesus' back being ripped to shreds by the whips...
I agree that Jesus suffered tremendous pain, more than any other human being could bear.
But are you saying that Jesus is wounded now? He is not, what he bears in his body are signs, and not wounds in need of healing. Are you saying Jesus cannot heal himself physically? Are you saying that Jesus was damaged spiritually or emotionally, in some lasting way?
And Jesus' bones were actually not broken:
John 19:36 These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: "Not one of his bones will be broken."
Again, this shows there was no harm for Jesus, indicating no inner damage even, in the cross. This Psalm from which John quotes about Jesus' bones being protected also has this verse:
Psalm 34:17 The righteous cry out, and the Lord hears them; he delivers them from all their troubles.
"All troubles," none are excepted, and God's deliverance is a complete deliverance:
Psalm 34:9 Fear the Lord, you his saints, for those who fear him lack nothing.
If evil has some triumph, then God's saints do indeed lack something.
1 John 5:4 For everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith.
If we overcome the world, does that not imply overcoming any given part of it?
Blessings,
Lee
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The Russian Judge
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2004
Total Posts : 7
| Posted 12/8/2004 4:27 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Lee Merrill
Hi RJ,
quote:
Lee: I think you are equating harm with pain here, though, but is pain always harmful in some way? Why did God design the world so it could become this way, then, and why doesn't he stop it?
RJ: No, I'm equating harm with Jesus' back being ripped to shreds by the whips...
I agree that Jesus suffered tremendous pain, more than any other human being could bear.
Yes, flesh ripped to shreds is HARM and PAIN.
quote:
But are you saying that Jesus is wounded now?
See, you say Jesus suffered no harm. What you mean is He didn't suffer harm that will be forever.
He suffered real harm and pain here on earth. But it's not forever.
So when we say He suffered HARM, He did. Don't say He didn't. Because He did.
I forgot about His legs not being broken. I quoted where He said His body was broken.
Holes, blood, ripped flesh, blood, plasma, temporary, complete separation from God, Jesus suffered REAL HARM. But not forever.
And Dru Sjodin suffered REAL HARM as well.
Promise us, you'll NEVER become a crisis counselor.
As for the holes, Jesus had Thomas place his fingers into the holes. Holes you can place your fingers into aren't "signs". And that's the body He walked through walls with.
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 12/9/2004 7:18 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi RJ,
quote:
RJ: What you mean is He didn't suffer harm that will be forever.
Yes, that is what I mean, I use the word "hurt" where you seem to use the word "harm," only because "harm" has connotations of damage that is not undone, but I agree with what you said here.
quote:
Holes, blood, ripped flesh, blood, plasma, temporary, complete separation from God, Jesus suffered REAL HARM. But not forever.
Yes, I agree...
"There is a peace that cometh after sorrow,
Of hope surrendered, not of hope fulfilled;
A peace that looketh not upon tomorrow,
But calmly on a tempest that it stilled.
"A peace that lives not now in joy's excesses,
Nor in the happy life of love secure;
But in the unerring strength the heart possesses,
Of conflicts won while learning to endure.
"A peace there is, in sacrifice secluded,
A life subdued, from will and passion free;
'Tis not the peace that over Eden brooded,
But that which triumphed in Gethsemane."
- Streams in the Desert
Blessings,
Lee
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AtTheWell
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2004
Total Posts : 133
| Posted 12/9/2004 9:10 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Lee wrote:
Because without complete control, there can be harm to someone who loves God, that cannot be overcome
Says who?
quote:
Lee: Yes, that is what I mean, I use the word "hurt" where you seem to use the word "harm," only because "harm" has connotations of damage that is not undone
How can the damage be undone? we only move forward-- however, clearly it can be overcome-- there can be a scar from harm, but that doesn't mean it is never overcome - in forever, or even in this lifetime. What is your definition of overcome? Maybe that's what I'm missing.
quote:
But if some aspect of an evil deed cannot ever be overcome, is that not harm, in the worst sense of the word? Real damage, with no recovery ever for that actual damage?
"some aspect"
Do you suppose we completely lose our memory in eternity? Hmmmm...... Well I guess it goes back to what overcome means exactly... 
quote:
Lee wrote: But if some aspect of an evil deed cannot ever be overcome, is that not harm, in the worst sense of the word? Real damage, with no recovery ever for that actual damage?
I don't really see the necessity for fear of this... either we believe God CAN and does heal us or we don't. I still don't see why we must believe he must be in robotic control of everything, including the sinner sinning the sin, to do it? Why must God control it to overcome it???? He is the creator, can he not create the way to overcome something that even does cause "real harm"? I guess it's a point that cannot be answered really, my original struggle was with the necessity you are placing on seeing the molesting of a child as something that occurs as one of God's good plans.
quote:
Lee wrote: No, the point I am making it is that if someone else has power to cause evil, outside the will of God, to cross God's will, then that means real damage can be done, that has no remedy for it. Thus God must be in complete control, or else there can be real harm done to a child of God, contrary to his promise
I see what you mean, outside of God's Will, as far as the overarching will of God as creator of the parameters of this dimension. And then, who or what is our Enemy? And why is anything considered our enemy and not rather our friend, if he aids us as the secondary cause in this suffering which is only for good?
quote:
And I'm sure most children, and many adults, in times of suffering, are not conscious of choosing, or not choosing, the Father's will. Yet as a result of good that can be seen, through insight that can come later, that choice can be made, and be as real as if it were done at that moment:
True, sometimes, doubtfully in the case of molestation, and a few other things.....I can hardly imagine someone saying... "Thank God I was molested by Uncle So and So, that really brought me closer to Eternity's love."
quote:
Lee wrote: And are you implying that God could not stop the molestation
Nope. Stop something at any point in a process has absolutely nothing to do with causing it.
quote:
Why does he not stop it, if he sees it would do real harm to someone who is trusting in him?
I guess that brings us back to --molestation isn't harming the child-- ok, I'll give you that no eternal harm could be impinged (is that a word?) upon this child by God due to the act of molestation by some other, and the only eternal act of harm I can think of that could truly be eternal would be losing ones salvation, but even that depends upon our choice and the Holy spirit-- but there are REAL wounds that need healing, for sure-- and I certainly believe God lovingly heals those, but having to picture Him as causing the very wounds he must heal otherwise there's no way he can heal them, isn't that something like Munchausen Syndrome by Proxy?
quote:
Genesis 50:20 You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives.
Intriguing point here....
It is hard to reconcile this with blaming anyone for any sin they have ever committed. Sounds silly, but that is the next step to me if I take this scripture as it is right here. Who did the intending here??? The first intending?
quote:
Lee wrote:
I hold that all suffering is for a good purpose, for those who love God, that is indeed a clear verse in Scripture, and thus this good, and even the deed, is in the Father's will.
I completely agree that In all things God works for the good of those who love him. Does it say he has to cause it work with it though? I mean really does it say this?
Thanks for the dialogue. Have a marvelous day!!!
Peace,
ATW
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 12/9/2004 2:23 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi ATW,
quote:
Because without complete control, there can be harm to someone who loves God, that cannot be overcome…
Says who?
The alternative is that it is impossible for someone who loves God to be harmed, even without God completely controlling evil. On what basis can we make this statement, and where is this found in Scripture?
And in Scripture I find the opposite, that God is indeed in complete control:
Ps. 33:10-11 The Lord foils the plans of the nations; he thwarts the purposes of the peoples. But the plans of the Lord stand firm forever, the purposes of his heart through all generations.
quote:
Lee: Yes, that is what I mean, I use the word "hurt" where you seem to use the word "harm," only because "harm" has connotations of damage that is not undone.
ATW: How can the damage be undone? we only move forward-- however, clearly it can be overcome-- there can be a scar from harm, but that doesn't mean it is never overcome - in forever, or even in this lifetime. What is your definition of overcome?
By "overcome," I mean it all turns out for good, thus the damage is indeed completely undone, I don't believe God just puts the situation back to zero, he doesn't undo evil in that sense, rather he turns "trials into gold" (Keith Green).
quote:
Lee: But if some aspect of an evil deed cannot ever be overcome, is that not harm, in the worst sense of the word? Real damage, with no recovery ever for that actual damage?
"some aspect"
Do you suppose we completely lose our memory in eternity?
No, we rejoice in all that happened, even the trials, and remember them, for if we love God, they did us good, and others good as well:
Revelation 5:12 In a loud voice they sang: "Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!"
We will remember, as Jesus' sacrifice is also remembered.
quote:
ATW: Why must God control it to overcome it???? He is the creator, can he not create the way to overcome something that even does cause "real harm"?
Well, then that's complete control, is it not? I agree that we don't have to insist on robotic control, just control in some way.
quote:
I guess it's a point that cannot be answered really, my original struggle was with the necessity you are placing on seeing the molesting of a child as something that occurs as one of God's good plans.
Again, would it be better if God's will could be crossed when those who love him suffer? If it was really outside his plan, and he would rather have had it be different if he could have? Why is this better?
If we can have less than God's best, why is this better?
quote:
And then, who or what is our Enemy? And why is anything considered our enemy and not rather our friend, if he aids us as the secondary cause in this suffering which is only for good?
There is a real enemy, but in the sense that you are saying, yes, trials are even friends! There's even a verse that comes right out and says that, in one translation:
"When all kinds of trials and temptations come into your lives, my brothers, don't resent them as intruders, but welcome them as friends. Realize that they come to test your faith and to produce in you the quality of endurance." (J.B. Phillips translation)
quote:
I can hardly imagine someone saying... "Thank God I was molested by Uncle So and So, that really brought me closer to Eternity's love."
But if it only did us good, why should we not give thanks, even for this? As Jesus did, when he took the cup.
quote:
ATW: I'll give you that no eternal harm could be impinged (is that a word?) upon this child by God due to the act of molestation by some other…
Yes, that is what I believe…
quote:
… but there are REAL wounds that need healing, for sure-- and I certainly believe God lovingly heals those
Yes, he does.
quote:
… but having to picture Him as causing the very wounds he must heal otherwise there's no way he can heal them, isn't that something like Munchausen Syndrome by Proxy?
No, God causing a wound is certainly not required in order for him to heal it. But I think we are getting caught by thinking that the end result is that God puts the situation back to zero, as if it didn't happen, but I believe that God turns the trials into gold, that they turn out for good, all good, for those who love him, and that is why he causes even this.
quote:
Genesis 50:20 You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives.
ATW: It is hard to reconcile this with blaming anyone for any sin they have ever committed. Sounds silly, but that is the next step to me if I take this scripture as it is right here. Who did the intending here??? The first intending?
The intent is what is blamed, though, so Joseph's brothers were still guilty, and they were punished, too! Though what they did turned out for good, that they did not intend. So there were two intents here, call them both first intents if you will, the brothers' intent for evil, and yet God's intent for good. And God's intent won!
Prov. 21:30 There is no wisdom, no insight, no plan that can succeed against the Lord.
quote:
ATW: I completely agree that In all things God works for the good of those who love him.
Yes.
quote:
Does it say he has to cause it work with it though? I mean really does it say this?
Well, if God sees it will result in good, and only good, then why should he not set the events in motion?
James 5:11 As you know, we consider blessed those who have persevered. You have heard of Job's perseverance and have seen what the Lord finally brought about.
quote:
Have a marvelous day!
You too! And everyone here…
Blessings,
Lee
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