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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 11/22/2004 10:04 AM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
Assuming God knows all my future decisions (free willed or otherwise) and assuming that God's knowledge is correct, from God's point of view my decisions are set. So why bother with anything? Why argue on a discussion board? I won't make a difference. Whatever will happen is set. All the human striving in the world can't change it.
Are we to strive to change the world?
quote:
Why evangelize? God knew before the foundation of the earth who would hear and believe. If I don't tell my friend about Jesus, that's the way God planned it.
If they do not hear the gospel message, how can they believe? Why assume that YOU are the only one who can speak to your friend about salvation? Maybe God has planned for him to hear the message from someone else. Maybe God knows that your friend needs to hear it from you and others for it to take effect. God has made provision for all.
quote:
"Your will be done." Wow, that's a pretty dumb thing to pray! Of course it will be done. That's like me praying for the Sox to trade Babe 80 years ago. It's already set. Why waste my breath praying for it?
"You will be done" sounds more like humble acceptance instead of stupidity.
quote:
One answer to all this that drives me crazy is, "The Bible says so. Look at all these verses that tell us to share our faith." I know about all the verses. That's the whole reason I can't believe God knows all future choices. If God is knowing of all future choices, the verses become pretty meaningless.
Maybe your perspective needs to be adjusted. We are God's achievement, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them (Eph. 2:10) and God is operating in us to will as well as to work for the sake of His delight (Phil. 2:13). On top of this we will be rewarded for the fruit God produces through us. Just because God has it all planned out ahead of time does not make it meaningless. Just because God has taken care of all provisions ahead of time does not make it meaningless either All that God purposes through us will result in gold and silver, all that we attempt to do on our own will result in hay and stuble and will be burned up.
His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 11/22/2004 4:02 PM (GMT -6) | | Sahid-
It's frustrating, eh? You'll never get an answer to your questions.
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 11/23/2004 3:08 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Sahid-
It's frustrating, eh? You'll never get an answer to your questions.
Tom
It is frustrating because you will not recieve an answer which will satisfy how YOU FEEL concerning the freedom of the will. Frustration disappears when you rely on what God directly teaches about the will in scripture (i.e. slave to sin and death or slave to righteousness).
quote:
Don't you see the flaw in your logic here, Lock? If God has decided that Sahid's friend will be saved, whether or not Sahid or anyone tells his friend the Gospel will make no difference. God has decided to save him - therefore he will be saved - so there's no reason to tell him the Gospel because he will be saved since God has ordained it.
Are you serious? Whether you believe God has ordained it or not, inorder for a person to believe the evangel it must be told them (Rom. 10). Because God has ordained it does not mean that it will just automatically happen! God has prepared the way beforehand and it benefits the one heralding as much as the one hearing. Again this is taught in scripture, not how I FEEL is should work.
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So, I think that's Sahid's question. Why should anyone tell anyone the Gospel if God has ordained that certain people will be saved and certain people will not be saved no matter if they heard the Gospel or not?
Who has said they will be saved NO MATTER IF THE HEARD THE GOSPEL OR NOT?
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And if you argue that the Bible says to tell people the Gospel you're being contradictory because having to tell people the Gospel inherently means that they have to make a decision about it once they hear it. And if they have to make a decision about it, that is free will, and that makes predestination false.
Wrong. The bible teaches that we will based our decision on our disposition. Those who are lead by the flesh will consider the evangel stupid and will not recieve it. Those lead by the spirit will recieve it and upon believing will be sealed with the holy spirit of promise (which is the earnest of the enjoyment of our allotment, to the deliverance of that which has been procured) Eph. 1:14. You are correct that there is a decision made, but to give a human "free" will in order to make the decision is going beyond what the bible teaches.
quote:
quote:
yep, calvinism is as fatalistic as islam....
Even though I am not a calvinist, your comparision is unfair. At least the calvinist believes in righteousness through faith alone, whereas islam is a salvation through works religion. Plus calvinists attempt to teach from the scriptures alone, whereas "free" will is a man-made theology through and through.
One more thing for Sahid
quote:
"Your will be done." Wow, that's a pretty dumb thing to pray!
I guess then Jesus was dumb!?
His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 11/23/2004 4:00 AM (GMT -6) | | Lock-
You keep whining about how I FEEL about freedom. But this just doesn't fly as an argument. One, because I'm not feeling my way through the issues. I affirm LFW because it makes best "sense" (viz., meaning) of the issues, not because it makes me "feel" better. Two, because telling somebody they're consulting how they feel isn't an argument against anything. You're just blowing smoke. And three, because you've demonstrated that determinists like yourself are perfectly capable of consulting their feelings when they run out of substantive things to say (about God's "glory" demanding that we NOT be libertarianly free--which is nothing but an argument from unexamined intuitions). So perhaps you can grow out of this aspect of your objections to people who disagree with you. I'm not looking for an answer that will "satisfy how I FEEL concerning freedom." I'm looking for an answer that "makes sense" of as much of what we know to be true as possible, as in "is meaningful." I don't find unconditionally determined agency meaningful. It's not about feelings. It's about meaning. Can you understand that? Let's hope so.
Now, that God would unconditionally determine all things, including whether and how a person hears the gospel; whether, how, and when they respond positively; all the necessary and sufficient causes--primary and secondary--as God decrees them, is in my view (my mind, not my feelings) incomprehensible gibberish.
Wicker's comparison to Islam is fair. He didn't mean to equate Islam and Calvinism at every point. But in this one point, exhausitve and unconditional determinism, Calvin and Muhammad are equal. They both affirm God's unconditional and exhaustive determination of all things.
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
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the Wicker Man
Registered Member
Date Joined Sep 2004
Total Posts : 73
| Posted 11/23/2004 4:49 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
Tom
Settle down! "Free" will is not biblical.
actually, your islamic fatalism is not biblical
Isaiah 5:1 Let me sing now for my well-beloved
A song of my beloved concerning His vineyard.
My well-beloved had a vineyard on a fertile hill.
2 He dug it all around, removed its stones,
And planted it with the choicest vine.
And He built a tower in the middle of it
And also hewed out a wine vat in it;
Then He expected it to produce good grapes,
But it produced only worthless ones.
3 "And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah,
Judge between Me and My vineyard.
4 "What more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it?
Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones?
God expected His people to act one way, they acted the opposite.
animals, being controlled by natural instincts, don't debate whether they have free will or not, they need self-awareness and free will in order to debate whether they have it or not
Jesus, born in the flesh, did not commit sin, proving that being in the flesh does not automatically equate to sinning.
uromancer to the stars | | Back to Top | | |
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Albert Einstein
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2004
Total Posts : 83
| Posted 11/23/2004 5:16 AM (GMT -6) | | Tom, check this out:
quote:
1. With respect to the free-will issue, we should refrain from believing falsehoods. (premise)
2. Whatever should be done can be done. (premise)
3. If determinism is true, then whatever can be done, is done. (premise)
4. I believe MFT. (premise)
5. With respect to the free-will issue, we can refrain from believing falsehoods. (from 1,2)
6. If determinism is true, then with respect to the free will issue, we refrain from believing falsehoods. (from 3,5)
7. If determinism is true, then MFT is true. (from 6,4)
8. MFT is true. (from 7)
from http://home.sprynet.com/~owl1/fwill.htm
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 11/23/2004 5:29 AM (GMT -6) | | Too funny, Einstein. So right on. It's interesting that Lock won't stop whining about "absolute unrestricted" free will (a sort of free will nobody argues for) and about how we are led through life by our feelings, and then gets upset and tells us to "calm down" when I offer a quite calm response to him. It's like he didn''t even see what I said in my previous post about reason and meaning against mere emotion.
Nice try, Lock. The problem with your view here is that you haven't yet offered anything "meaningful" about freedom one can reasonably consider. Nothing has yet been meaningfully posited. When you get around to offering a meaningful notion for our consideration, we'll talk.
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 11/23/2004 6:25 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi everyone,
So many points being made, it's impossible to address them all in a few paragraphs…
quote:
Sahid: … assuming that God's knowledge is correct, from God's point of view my decisions are set. So why bother with anything?
I believe God's children can really choose, though unbelievers can't.
quote:
Why evangelize? God knew before the foundation of the earth who would hear and believe. If I don't tell my friend about Jesus, that's the way God planned it.
Well, this assumes that God plans only salvation, but not the way people come to salvation. That wouldn't be a very good plan, though. And it's like saying "Assuming there is no free will, then if there is free will then why etc."
You are assuming free will, when you ask "Why evangelize?" and then using that as an objection to a point of view that says God is in complete control of this, so your objection needs to not start out by assuming this view is false!
quote:
If God is knowing of all future choices, the verses become pretty meaningless. What I'm looking for is some way that God's knowing all future choices can be reconciled logically with God asking and obedience while allowing God to still be good.
Well, I do hold that knowing a future choice does not make it not be free, just as God knows his future choices, and yet they are free. But we have discussed this before…
And as far as asking obedience, when that applies to believers, they have real choices, I believe…
Blessings,
Lee
==================================================
"Even now we seem to have dim glimpses into regions
from which we receive no word to bring away" (George MacDonald) | | Back to Top | | |
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 11/23/2004 8:36 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
God expected His people to act one way, they acted the opposite.
animals, being controlled by natural instincts, don't debate whether they have free will or not, they need self-awareness and free will in order to debate whether they have it or not
Jesus, born in the flesh, did not commit sin, proving that being in the flesh does not automatically equate to sinning.
The fact that humans can miss the mark set by God does not prove "free" will. You have yet to show where the bible directly teaches that man posesses a "free" will such as Rom. 8 directly teaches we are either lead by the flesh or lead by the spirit of God or Romans 7 which states we are either a SLAVE to sin and death or a SLAVE to righteousness.
Jesus is the only man to have ever lived and not sinned. He was lead by the spirit of God. Jesus only spoke what was told Him by the spirit and He did those works which He was directed to do by the spirit. Even in the garden when His will was that the Father should remove the cup, He submitted to the Father's will.
quote:
you believe God forces people into a relationship with Himself with NO input from them, yet I'll bet you didn't do this with your wife
God does not force people into a relationship with Himself. The flesh keeps us from having a relationship with God and God removes the flesh through Jesus Christ.
It is man who forces his theology of "free" will on God!
quote:
Nice try, Lock. The problem with your view here is that you haven't yet offered anything "meaningful" about freedom one can reasonably consider. Nothing has yet been meaningfully posited. When you get around to offering a meaningful notion for our consideration, we'll talk.
Like I have said before Tom, I will stick to what the bible teaches about freedom; i.e. freedom from sin and death. I will not try to force what the bible teaches into your defintion of freedom. If you do not feel that what the bible teaches in Rom. 7 and 8 meaningful, what can I do about it?
His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. | | Back to Top | | |
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the Wicker Man
Registered Member
Date Joined Sep 2004
Total Posts : 73
| Posted 11/23/2004 8:57 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
quote:
God expected His people to act one way, they acted the opposite.
The fact that humans can miss the mark set by God does not prove "free" will.
God expected different than what happened. That's because some other will got the results IT wanted and God's will DIDN'T.
Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET."
Why does the Law require anything on Paul's part, the "knowing"?
Because Paul is a free moral agent.
Romans 7:9
I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died;
Paul was ALIVE without the Law, not dead. How did the arrival of the Law result in his sin? verse 7, his knowlege of the Law. Because Paul is a free moral agent.
Even though the Law comes, we are NOT dead in our sins until we know the Law. That is free will agency.
You still haven't answered how Jesus, born into flesh, didn't sin.
If it's automatic, as you posit, Jesus was a sinner as well.
If we are unable to set our mind on the Spirit, then He was unable to set His mind on the Spirit.
If He wasn't saddled with infirmity JUST LIKE us, then He CANNOT be our High Priest.
Hebrews 4:15
uromancer to the stars | | Back to Top | | |
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 11/23/2004 9:36 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
God expected different than what happened. That's because some other will got the results IT wanted and God's will DIDN'T.
Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET."
Why does the Law require anything on Paul's part, the "knowing"?
Because Paul is a free moral agent.
If this be the case, then why did death reign from Adam to Moses (Rom. 5:14)?
A knowledge of sin is necessary for a knowledge of God's righteousness. Paul gives us the purpose of the law; to know sin. A person falls into the same snare as the Jews if they believe the Law was given for the sole purpose of obeying it! Instead it was given so that we would understand our inability to keep it in the flesh (Rom. 8:8) and our need for a Savior and God's provision.
quote:
You still haven't answered how Jesus, born into flesh, didn't sin.
If it's automatic, as you posit, Jesus was a sinner as well.
If we are unable to set our mind on the Spirit, then He was unable to set His mind on the Spirit.
If He wasn't saddled with infirmity JUST LIKE us, then He CANNOT be our High Priest.
Hebrews 4:15
The flesh is not sinful in itself. James 1:14 tells us that a man is drawn away and lured by his own desire, thereafter the desire, concieving, is bringing forth sin. Paul obsevered a different law in his members, warring with the law of his mind (Rom. 7:23). It is impossible to keep the law due to the infirmity of the flesh (Rom. 8:3) and those of the flesh are unable to please God (v. 8). Those lead by the flesh are disposed to the flesh, yet those who are in accord with the spirit to that which is of the spirit (v. 5). Christ was born in the flesh but was in accord with the spirit. Christ was never lead by the desires of the flesh. He was tempted by the same desires we are but was in accord with the spirit and so never concieved sin.
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