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Holiday
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2003
Total Posts : 22
| Posted 11/23/2004 6:32 AM (GMT -6) |   | Tom,
I posted this in response to Greg, under my thread on Judas and molonism. I'm guessing he's pretty busy, but I kind of wanted an answer for this one. the question is below and taken from my original post. I hope there is enough of it to make sense of what I'm asking. It follows Greg explaining to me that Judas betrayal was not God doing a Molonistic thing, but rather 'it was' a molonistic reality at that point.
heres the question.
So if it is a molonistic reality, which makes sense to me and I assumed was how the O.V. God would work here, then my question is not about the “would or would not” choices of Judas, but rather the contingent parameters that give the context for these would or would not decisions to be made. Especially if some of these parameters are contignent on libertarian choices of non-solidified beings.
This is far fetch, but let me try and explain what I mean.
Suppose that the parameters are fixed “enough” that Jesus could know for certainty what Judas would do, (which seems reasonable), what the chief preists guards etc. would do in response (seems reasonable), but what if an anamous band of let’s say Zealot’s who possessed libertarian freedom and non-solidified libertarian freedom got drunk and decided to go on a killing spree and killed those guards and whoever came to arrest Jesus.
God couldn’t know these parameters as fixed because of their libertarian, non-solidified, “might or might not,” characters.
Is it that God in his perfect present knowledge knows all possibilities at this point, and all possibilities (taking into account ‘causal circumstances’ ‘solidified wills’ and whatsoever God Himself determines as reality for the given moment) are such that for sure Judas will with his libertarian solidified freedom ‘will’ not only attempt to do what Jesus has predicted, but also that all these factors will not prevent the attempt from coming about.
In short must it be true that for God to know what someone “would or would not do,” no “might or might not” wills, can intersect and thus thwart the actions of the “would or would not” agent.
Hence my question about the difference between doing…well I guess better said observing a “molonistic reality vs. a Calvinsitic reality.”
Thanks for your thoughts... or if any one else wants to take a stab at this one.
It's probably obvious what I'm missing, but hey you got learn some where right?
Holiday | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 11/23/2004 1:57 PM (GMT -6) | | Holiday: Suppose that the parameters are fixed “enough” that Jesus could know for certainty what Judas would do, (which seems reasonable), what the chief preists guards etc. would do in response (seems reasonable), but what if an anamous band of let’s say Zealot’s who possessed libertarian freedom and non-solidified libertarian freedom got drunk and decided to go on a killing spree and killed those guards and whoever came to arrest Jesus.
Tom: I’m no expert on Molinism. Alan and Doc are your best bet. But just given what you say above, I’d say that it might just be the case that if a band of Zealots decided to come riding through town on a killing spree that God might be in a place to prevent them (say, by having their horses break legs or causing the Zealots to get severe diarrhea en route,  ) from interrupting the drama of redemption at this point. I wouldn’t argue God never interrupts with human free will under any circumstance, only that his doing so is not arbitrary or unrelated to any specific warrant for doing so. What those warrants are we don’t always know. So, maybe there were no real threats looming over the out-working of God’s purposes that night. Maybe there were but none were of a libertarian nature and God shut them down. Or maybe there were some of a libertarian nature and God shut them down too. In the end all we have to do is trust that when God intervenes to bring about or prevent some event, his doing so is perfectly consistent with his loving nature and the overall purpose of his granting free will to human beings.
From my perspective at least,
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
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